Protestants and Mary

[CWBetts]

Actually, I am Catholic; however, do I not subscribe to some of the churches teaching or question some of the teachings, yes as should all of us who are wanting to know the truth. They seem very inconsistent and confusing to the message at which the apostle preached to and in and around Israel (but not limited to only Israel) If I am considered a heretic so be it. But I hold firm in Christ my Lord for he is my help and rock and Sheppard of my soul.

Who are you to question that which has been infallibly defined? I guess it is true, there may be a shortage of vocations to the priesthood, but not to the papacy.

 

[Seraphim25]

Who are you to question that which has been infallibly defined? I guess it is true, there may be a shortage of vocations to the priesthood, but not to the papacy.

I am nobody in whom questions this infallibility at which the church uses. But, can not God by the Holy spirit also, educate his word? I think so for just as the Ethiopian that was reading Isiah and God sent an apostle to convert him and sends him on his way demonstrates that the word of God is power and life changing. My anchor is Gods word and not necessarily what a certian church says. I would show this same demeanor to any denomination!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Actually, I am Catholic; however, do I not subscribe to some of the churches teaching or question some of the teachings, yes as should all of us who are wanting to know the truth. They seem very inconsistent and confusing to the message at which the apostle preached to and in and around Israel (but not limited to only Israel) If I am considered a heretic so be it. But I hold firm in Christ my Lord for he is my help and rock and Sheppard of my soul.

If you don’t hold firm to everything our Church teaches, then why are you Catholic?

 

[Seraphim25]

If you don’t hold firm to everything our Church teaches, then why are you Catholic?

Because i do feel that God built one church and not 25 thousand churches. I also, believe that the Catholic church does have it right in regards to must of what it teaches. I just challenge some edicts that they proclaim. Mary being one of them (however, I am trying to be careful in not insulting any of Gods people for I give Mary the respect do for she is indeed blessed amongst woman since she birthed our Lord, but that is where I think it should stop just as it should stop as Moses being the law giver to the Israelite. Moses said it himself several times to understand Gods word and not solely on Moses. Also, he warned them whole heartfelt not to reject the coming messiah who would be greater than he.

I also challange the infalibility charge on to the pope but that is for another post/thread

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Because i do feel that God built one church and not 25 thousand churches. I also, believe that the Catholic church does have it right in regards to must of what it teaches. I just challenge some edicts that they proclaim. Mary being one of them (however, I am trying to be careful in not insulting any of Gods people for I give Mary the respect do for she is indeed blessed amongst woman since she birthed our Lord, but that is where I think it should stop just as it should stop as Moses being the law giver to the Israelite. Moses said it himself several times to understand Gods word and not solely on Moses. Also, he warned them whole heartfelt not to reject the coming messiah who would be greater than he.

I also challange the infalibility charge on to the pope but that is for another post/thread

I will pray for you in your uncertainty, then. In the Catholic Church you should feel…home.


Bless you.
Therese

 

[Seraphim25]

I will pray for you in your uncertainty, then. In the Catholic Church you should feel…home.


Bless you.
Therese

I am home, should not my devotion to Christ suffice for our brothen? For behold, Christ who died rather raised for our sanctification and purification is pouring out is graces upon all flesh! Why is this statement not enough! why not say rejoice in the lord for many are flocking to the Shepard of the Lord?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I am home, should not my devotion to Christ suffice for our brothen? For behold, Christ who died rather raised for our sanctification and purification is pouring out is graces upon all flesh! Why is this statement not enough! why not say rejoice in the lord for many are flocking to the Shepard of the Lord?

Because the Catholic Church’s biggest threat today is not non-Catholics! Rather, Catholics themselves…those *part *of Christ’s body! Yes, it is enough to say you love Jesus! But show Him! Follow ***all ***He teaches! If we could “pick and choose” our Faith…it wouldn’t be a very hard journey, now would it? We rejoice in the mystery…we believe in what we don’t see!

 

[Seraphim25]

Because the Catholic Church’s biggest threat today is not non-Catholics! Rather, Catholics themselves…those *part *of Christ’s body! Yes, it is enough to say you love Jesus! But show Him! Follow ***all ***He teaches! If we could “pick and choose” our Faith…it wouldn’t be a very hard journey, now would it? We rejoice in the mystery…we believe in what we don’t see!

Amen, but God works in individuals to. Be careful and mindful that even the popes themselves through history did horrendous things to people. Just as the Jewish high temple did horrendous things to their people. It is okay to challange certain edicts to know the truth. God says to us countless times to prove himself so that we may know. Even to challange if Christ is truly the only way to God. We are called to be intelligent and not to be solely subordinate to those who say believe or else? Rather we believe because of a certian conversion story or have witnessed Gods power!

 

[Seraphim25]

Because the Catholic Church’s biggest threat today is not non-Catholics! Rather, Catholics themselves…those *part *of Christ’s body! Yes, it is enough to say you love Jesus! But show Him! Follow ***all ***He teaches! If we could “pick and choose” our Faith…it wouldn’t be a very hard journey, now would it? We rejoice in the mystery…we believe in what we don’t see!

I am not saying to pick and choose my faith for I try fervently to observe the word of God every day. Albeit i am a sinner and am contingent on the mercy of God everybody, but I know in my heart that he is there uplifting my arm. I just want to give Glory to Christ and to no one else. I know your arguments on Mary I am just struggling to accept them. Some of which are extremely scary for me to say yup that is the truth.

 

[fbl9]

Amen, but God works in individuals to. Be careful and mindful that even the popes themselves through history did horrendous things to people. Just as the Jewish high temple did horrendous things to their people.

You yourself should be mindful that these popes you speak of didn’t change the church’s defined doctrines.Where as the Jewish temple’s leaders did change things to suit their needs…what Christ condenmed the Pharises for St. Matthew 15:1-7

It is okay to challange certain edicts to know the truth. God says to us countless times to prove himself so that we may know. Even to challange if Christ is truly the only way to God. We are called to be intelligent and not to be solely subordinate to those who say believe or else?

challenge yes but to deny them no.

Rather we believe because of a certian conversion story or have witnessed Gods power!

could it be one believes because they want to believe.

 

[guanophore]

Well explain how can Jesus become sin if he was not made to have sinfull flesh as this peice states?
“For he hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” 2 Corinthians 5:21

This is a very good question, and one of the great mysteries of our faith. It has not been revealed to us how it is that Jesus was able to bear our sins on the cross. However, it has been revealed that He had no sin. He was the pure and spotless lamb without blemish, and that is what makes Him qualified to be the perfect sacrifice.

Here is another one to show that I am not just nit picking scriptures or taking them out of context. “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10

But in other places, it states that there are righteous. Paul is making comparisons here between Jews and Gentiles. He is saying that there are faithless Jews, just as there are faithless Gentiles, and that both will fall into the pit unless they come to believe in Him.

“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin…” Galatians 3:22

This is a reference to original sin. Jesus did not have original sin. His Mother was cleansed of it at the moment of her conception, so that she could give her flesh to the One Who would give it for the life of the world.

Why would somebody say they needed a savior if she was sinless? “And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” Luke 1:46-47

When we say she was sinless, we mean that she did not commit personal sin. God saved her from original sin. We are all saved from original sin in baptism, but we still may commit personal sins if we fail to walk in grace.

Verify this one to me??? “The Church’ s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship.” Pg. 253, #971

The Church has always honored Mary, the mother of Jesus. We are devoted to her as our role model, and as our spiritual mother. Christ gave her to us as Mother when she stood at the foot of His cross.

Also, are we sure that the full of grace means sinlessness?

Do you think it is possible to commit sins when one full of grace?

My NIB and many others which are catholic in nature say highly favored? Also, there is a difference in the greek meaning when Jesus is called full of grace and truth. Therefore, how can we conclude the same rendering?

The Gk. word is peculiar to this passage. It is not used anywhere else.

Charitoo: akin to charis, to endow with charis, primarily signified to make graceful or gracious, and came to denote, in Hellenistic Greek, to cause to find favour, Luke 1:28, “highly favoured” (margin, “endued with grace”) . . . Grace implies more than favour; grace is a free gift, favour may be deserved or gained" (An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W.E. Vine).

1. If they want to use “full of grace” it still should be rendered as “having been filled with grace” (again a perfect, passive, participle).
2. They would then have to render Eph 1:6 as:
   
   to [the] praise of the glory of His grace, by which He filled us with grace in the Beloved,

The point is, no matter what the translation, whatever is said of Mary MUST be true of all other believers as well. So translate as they will they can’t evade the fact that nothing is said of Mary that is not also said of all other believers.

Why? why cannot God do something with one person that He does not do with another? Scripture says that Enoch walked with God, and was taken up to heaven. Does it say this about anyone else? Moses is called the “friend” of God, and God related to him differently than anyone else.

It is true, though, that Mary is the example of what God wants to accomplish in all of us. The difference with Mary is that she was created like Eve, without a sin nature.

So if Luke 1:28 somehow “proves” Mary is sinless and immaculately conceived, then so are all believers. The first IS true; we are sinless as a result of being forgiven in Christ, but we weren’t born that way, and neither was Mary.

I would not say that Luke 1:28 “proves” anything. It is a reflection of the Apostolic Teaching, just like the rest of the NT.

The Church also teaches that John was born without original sin, as He was baptized by the HS when Mary’s greeting sounded in Elizabeth’s ears. it is not up to you to determine that something God does for one person must be alike for all. that is up to God.

I personally love Mary and all other saints to whom and through whom have demonstrated his power and glory so that all may no the one true God. However, God is not partial with whom he loves. He dosen't withhold Glory from others the word of God teaches this even in the Old testament which came first the NT but fulfills it.

God loves all that He creates, but He does not relate to everyone the same. He loves those who choose not to follow Him, too, but he has a very different relationship with those who have been washed in His blood. His grace is available to all, but not all respond, and not all those that respond do so to the same degree. He has different gifts and callings for each. We are equal in dignity, but not equal in other areas. On the contrary, to each is given a measure of the Spirit for the common good. He distributes gifts differing as He wills.

 

[Good_Fella]

I am nobody in whom questions this infallibility at which the church uses. But, can not God by the Holy spirit also, educate his word?** I think so for just as the Ethiopian that was reading Isiah and God sent an apostle to convert him and sends him on his way demonstrates that the word of God is power and life changing. My anchor is Gods word and not necessarily what a certian church says**. I would show this same demeanor to any denomination!

The Ethiopian wouldn’t have been enlightened unless Phillip taught him the full meaning of the prophecy with Apostolic authority. The Scriptures aren’t a matter of private interpretation. What good is the anchor if the ship has no pilot? The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is supported by three pillars: Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium. If any of these pillars collapse, the whole structure will fall to ruin and the full truth of God’s word will elude us. Jesus assured his apostles, with their valid successors of the episcopacy in mind, that he would not leave them as orphans but would come back to them and send the Spirit of truth to guide His Church in all truth until the end of this age. I’m confident that Jesus kept his word.

The Protestant tradition consists of countless denominations because of the principle of sola scriptura and the rejection of the institution of a central apostolic teaching authority.

“The church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.”
*1 Timothy 3, 15 *

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[elvisman]

In regards to Revelation 5:8 How exactly do you derive an intercession? Maybe no one has responded to your satisfaction or because it makes no sense.

The bowls and the incense represent the prayers of all the saints through all the ages that the promised redemption might come.

Multiply that scene of people offering prayers TO GOD by hundreds or thousands of years and this is the picture you see represented by the incense. Prayers offered to God by the people; not any intercessor by saints petitioning for those on earth to God as you have implied.

Revelation 8 is the same principle, but a little more detailed because there is angel acting as an OT priest and the saints in heaven are adding to the prayers from previous; praying for Satan to be defeated, but this has to do with the timing, most of the seals have been open and all that has been prophesied is about to reach a climax.

Hogwash.
PLEASE show me where it says this in Scripture. All it says is that they were interceding on behalf of the holy ones.

God doesn’t need anybody to bring prayers directed at Him.
Try again.

 

[elvisman]

Jesus is God, so of course He was not referring to Himself. That’s one of the things that was so interesting about what He said.

You missed my point.
You also did not address my argument about Mary’s role as the New Eve.
I even backed it up with Scripture - your last court of arbitration.

 

[elvisman]

You are a little late; I have already rebuked and proven there were at least 3 James; one being the Lords brother, the other two part of the 12. You know what they say; misery loves company; keep patting yourselves on the back as you happily reject the word of God.

PLEASE name them.
That’s ALL I asked.

 

[elvisman]

As far as we here on earth are concerned, they are DEAD. There are two types of death in Scripture, physical death and spiritual death. The saints in heaven are spritually dead until they are returned to their physical bodies on the day of the second coming of Christ.

You’re DEAD wrong, my friend. NOBODY in Heaven is dead. The Transfiguration of Jesus is CONCRETE evidence of this. Moses and Elijah were conversing with Jesus but according to YOU - this is impossible because they are spiritually dead.
I suggest you read about it (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36).

That is no nonsense. What the RCC teaches about praying to the saints is nonsense. What does the days of the Lord have anything to do with this? Nothing! Not related.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the Lord because it is only possible with the Lord.

Yes, the saints in heaven do pray for us but that still does not prove that they can hear our prayers. That is a different issue. They can pray for us without hearing our prayers. I think they can see us if they want to but I doubt that they can read our minds.

This makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. First of all, if they can’t hear or see us - HOW could they pray for us. HOW do they even know we exist individually.
Secondly - Heb. 12:1 tells us to behave because we are surrounded by “so great a cloud of witnesses”.
Now, the last time I checked - a witness can see and hear - otherwise, they have NOT witnessed anything.

Bengoshi:

In James it also says that we are to confess our sins to one another and pray for each other so we may be healed because the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. That is addressed to those living here on earth, not to those who are dead and in heaven. The verse in that I quoted in my previous post is clear, it says ON EARTH, not in heaven.

Gee - I thought you Protestants held to Romans 3:10, 23 when it comes to the nobody being “Righteous”. You’re always using that one against Mary’s sinlessness.
The truly righteous are in heaven - and NO - they aren’t dead according to Scripture.
GAME. SET. MATCH.

 

[elvisman]

As far as we here on earth are concerned, they are DEAD. There are two types of death in Scripture, physical death and spiritual death. The saints in heaven are spritually dead until they are returned to their physical bodies on the day of the second coming of Christ.

You’re DEAD wrong, my friend. NOBODY in Heaven is dead. The Transfiguration of Jesus is CONCRETE evidence of this. Moses and Elijah were conversing with Jesus but according to YOU - this is impossible because they are spiritually dead.
I suggest you read about it (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36).

That is no nonsense. What the RCC teaches about praying to the saints is nonsense. What does the days of the Lord have anything to do with this? Nothing! Not related.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the Lord because it is only possible with the Lord.

Yes, the saints in heaven do pray for us but that still does not prove that they can hear our prayers. That is a different issue. They can pray for us without hearing our prayers. I think they can see us if they want to but I doubt that they can read our minds.
This makes ABSOLUTELY no sense. First of all, if they can’t hear or see us - HOW could they pray for us. HOW do they even know we exist individually.
Secondly - Heb. 12:1 tells us to behave because we are surrounded by “so great a cloud of witnesses”.
Now, the last time I checked - a witness can see and hear - otherwise, they have NOT witnessed anything.

Bengoshi:

In James it also says that we are to confess our sins to one another and pray for each other so we may be healed because the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. That is addressed to those living here on earth, not to those who are dead and in heaven. The verse in that I quoted in my previous post is clear, it says ON EARTH, not in heaven.

Gee - I thought you Protestants held to Romans 3:10, 23 when it comes to the nobody being “Righteous”. You’re always using that one against Mary’s sinlessness.
The truly righteous are in heaven - and NO - they aren’t dead according to Scripture.
GAME. SET. MATCH.

 

[elvisman]

Yes, babies are included. Babies also have original sin. That is why it’s called original sin. The Bible says in Psalm 51:5: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

WRONG.
Whereas we are all stained by Original Sin - babied have not SINNED.
Try again.

---

PS - That’s not Why it’s called Original sin. It is called Original sin because it truly was the original sin committed by Adam and Eve.

 

[BornAgain89]

I was a protestant for 7 years and then a convert for almost twice that time. I have really tried and thought I would worship in the catholic church for ever but I just can’t give up my protestant roots. I have not been at peace for several years now. Some of the beliefs oBf the catholic church is just not in line with the bible and what i came to know as truth while a protestant. I will be not be in attendance at the catholic church for Mass anymore but I will be taking the Blessed Mother along with me. She came into my life i believe long before i was born again. She later presented herself to me, not saying a word, when I was having one of the most difficult times in my life She transfered more love to me than i have ever felt from anyone before here on earth. I did not know who she was. thought maybe she was my grandmother who died when my dad was 9yr old. I thank the catholic church with all my heart for letting me know who this wonderful woman visitor was.
She will always have a very special place in my life.
Please those of you who tend to argue here with protestants, have not seen this on this thread but other threads i have visited it has become quite rude and unchrist like. Please don’t give me all the reasons why i should remain catholic. I am finally at peace again, so like the peace i received when I first came to know the Lord. sorry this posting was so lengthy. May the Lord bless each and everyone of you!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I was a protestant for 7 years and then a convert for almost twice that time. I have really tried and thought I would worship in the catholic church for ever but I just can’t give up my protestant roots. I have not been at peace for several years now. Some of the beliefs oBf the catholic church is just not in line with the bible and what i came to know as truth while a protestant. I will be not be in attendance at the catholic church for Mass anymore but I will be taking the Blessed Mother along with me. She came into my life i believe long before i was born again. She later presented herself to me, not saying a word, when I was having one of the most difficult times in my life She transfered more love to me than i have ever felt from anyone before here on earth. I did not know who she was. thought maybe she was my grandmother who died when my dad was 9yr old. I thank the catholic church with all my heart for letting me know who this wonderful woman visitor was.
She will always have a very special place in my life.
Please those of you who tend to argue here with protestants, have not seen this on this thread but other threads i have visited it has become quite rude and unchrist like. Please don’t give me all the reasons why i should remain catholic. I am finally at peace again, so like the peace i received when I first came to know the Lord. sorry this posting was so lengthy. May the Lord bless each and everyone of you!

Glad you are at peace! Praying for you BornAgain! Go wherever Christ leads you…don’t ignore any call! And be prepared to defend our Blessed Mother when your fellow protestant brothers and sisters attack her!

God Bless,
Therese