Protestants and Mary

[bookgirl32]

Nor am I able to view it as essential because to do that would be to say that there are essential truths left outside the bible. That there would be truth essential to the faith outside the bible is unthinkable to me.
.

It is understandable that you would think like that because that is what you’re familiar with. But where in the Bible does it claim to be the only source of infallible truth? And by that, I mean where in the Bible does it say, “These exact books, and these books only, are the only source of inerrant (the Bible is inerrant, not infallible) truth?”

 

[benedictus2]

Okay, but I could ague the fact that not even the Jewish Torah constructed any of those books that he removed from the canon. In fact The Torah obviously had the 5 books of Moses and a select few others. So who is adding and subtracting doctrines now if you want to get on a technical level?

Aaah and this is where we get to the question of authority. Who has the authority to decide which books should be in the Bible. At the time of the canonization of Scripture, there was no set Jewish canon. The move by the Catholic Church to set the canon caused the Jews to start thinking about a canon.

This is why tin reality he protestant/catholic centres on one issue alone: authority. If it can be proven that the Catholic Church is indeed the Church that Jesus built on earth and the one that he promised to guide into all truth, and the one against whom the gates of hell will not prevail, then it stands to reason that she will not teach error and that all her doctrines will be in accord with God’s will.

Once we question one, then we start to question others, even the Bible itself. Once that happens then we do not know anymore if the Bible is indeed the word of God.

 

[benedictus2]

The early church’s understanding of communion:

1 Corinthians 11:
20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper.
21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.
23 ¶ For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you**; do this in remembrance of Me.”**
25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.​

Sure could be understood metaphorically because the purpose for communion is two fold: remembrance of Jesus and proclaiming the Lord’s death.

Nothing in the verses you cited above point in anyway to your contention that it should be understood metaphorically. As a matter of fact, quite the contrary.

PS. I’m taking time off from CAF so will not be able to reply should your respond to this and my other post.

 

[rchapm77]

It is understandable that you would think like that because that is what you’re familiar with. But where in the Bible does it claim to be the only source of infallible truth? And by that, I mean where in the Bible does it say, “These exact books, and these books only, are the only source of inerrant (the Bible is inerrant, not infallible) truth?”

ha ha yes inerrant, thanks for the correction. I don’t know of any verses that say the bible is the only source of inerrant truth. I’m certain that there is inerrant truth outside the bible the problem is there is also false teaching outside the bible. Most of us protestants are taught to stay whithin the known safety of scripture to help protect against falling into false doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:20 comes to mind though.

“All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Its that “thoroughly equipped” part that gives me faith to say that in scripture we have everything that is essential to faith and living the christain life.

 

[bookgirl32]

ha ha yes inerrant, thanks for the correction. I don’t know of any verses that say the bible is the only source of inerrant truth. I’m certain that there is inerrant truth outside the bible the problem is there is also false teaching outside the bible. Most of us protestants are taught to stay whithin the known safety of scripture to help protect against falling into false doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:20 comes to mind though.

“All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Its that “thoroughly equipped” part that gives me faith to say that in scripture we have everything that is essential to faith and living the christain life.

But the Bible doesn’t “teach”. Case in point there are over 40,000 denominations that claim that the very same Bible “teaches” different things. Since all of these are claiming to be just from the Bible, then none of them are false teachings? That’s not possible, God revealed only one truth, not different versions of it.

And this verse does support Scripture as being part of what “fully equips” us. It also doesn’t disprove Sacred Tradition, it doesn’t say that 1)it is the ONLY thing that is useful, or that 2) there are not other things that are useful. Many other times the apostles speak of what they write, AND what they say. It’s not an “either / or”, it’s a “both / and”.

 

[bookgirl32]

ha ha yes inerrant, thanks for the correction. I don’t know of any verses that say the bible is the only source of inerrant truth. I’m certain that there is inerrant truth outside the bible the problem is there is also false teaching outside the bible. Most of us protestants are taught to stay whithin the known safety of scripture to help protect against falling into false doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:20 comes to mind though.

“All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Its that “thoroughly equipped” part that gives me faith to say that in scripture we have everything that is essential to faith and living the christain life.

And my point in asking you to point out where the Bible lists it’s own table of contents (as in what books are exactly in it), is because it doesn’t. The compilation of the Bible itself is a matter of Tradition. God did not reveal in Scripture what books were supposed to be in the Bible.

 

[Good_Fella]

Well, being the case that God never used a perfect person I am not following the connection with Mary too? So in saying this define then when Jesus calls all believers to the same glory that Christ has from the father? Jesus states that as the father gives his glory to the son the son shares his glory with those who are willing to believe.

Just as there will be different degrees of punishment in hell (Lk 12: 47-48), so will there be different degrees of blessedness in heaven.

Each will receive his own reward according to his labors.
1 Corinthians 3:8

Evidently heavenly rewards are promised to the faithful proportinate to their deeds on earth. St. Paul compares the difference of light between the sun, the moon, and the stars and applies it to all believers in their state of heavenly glory.

The brightness of the sun is one kind, the brightness of the moon another, and the brightness of the stars another. For star differs from star in brightness. So also is the resurrection from the dead.
1 Corinthians 15: 41-42

The apostle assures us that just as one star shines more brightly in the sky than another, so one saint shall shine more brightly than another in heaven. One saint shall be more glorious than the other according to how much she has lived her life in grace and charity and what she has done for our Lord Jesus Christ. Certainly no human being has done anything more for Christ than Mary his own mother has. And nobody has loved God more than Mary has, since she is the mother of the Divine Word made flesh. In his first letter, St. John warns us that if anyone claims to love God but hates his brother, he is a liar. For nobody can love someone he doesn’t see if he hates someone he does see. Mary virtually saw God before the Annunciation by the infused knowledge she had received from the Holy Spirit upon her immaculate conception, whereby she received the first plenitude of grace. And she saw Him even more when she felt his presence in her womb and physically saw Him at the moment of His birth. As the mother of our Lord, Mary loved God with an incomparable perfection. As a result, she had loved her neighbor just as perfectly. The degrees of beatitude in heaven are measured by our charity. Since Mary’s love for God and neighbor immeasurably surpasses that of ours combined because of its finite perfection, her beatitude is predestined to be greater than ours all combined.

Jesus is “the Sun of Righteousness” (Malachi 4:2). His light shines the brightest in heavenly glory; Mary is “the woman with the moon under her feet” (Rev 12:1). Her light of glory shines less bright than that of the Sun, but as the Moon, her light shines brighter than any star in the sky as a reflection of her divine Sun. The light of the stars in heaven shine in different measure among the saints (Rev 8:5). Jesus told his apostles that there are many mansions in his Father’s house, and he is going to prepare a place for each of them (Jn 14:2).

PAX :heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

Abraham, a sinner who was sanctified by his faith in believing God, David a sinner and made King of the house of Israel and was defined has a person who was after Gods own heart. Moses a sinner who became the vessel for redemption out of bondage at the hand of Eygpt. Paul a sinner who murdered christians who through a very powerful conversion to Christ and became a huge symbol for the Christian faith. All the prophets were sinners and yet God uses them.

But unlike Abraham, David, and Paul, Mary was predestined from all eternity to be the Mother of God. The grace and glory she has received belongs to the Hypostatic Order. The predestination of Jesus to the divine sonship is also of the Hypostatic Order from which his grace and glory proceeds. The grace and glory of the faithful are effects of the grace and glory of Christ in the divine order of grace, but Mary is the only one among the elect whose predestination is of the Hypostatic Order. All her privileges and blessings rest on her divine maternity. Thus they are immeasurably greater than those of all the faithful. Mary is the only person in the Scriptures who was addressed as Kecharitomene. She was permanently endowed with sanctifying and habitual grace from the first moment of her existence because of her predestination to the divine maternity. She never lost her justification before God at any moment of her life. Thus the redemption of her body has preceded ours on the last day. God efficaciously willed that the mother of His Only-begotten Son be perpetually pure and blameless in His sight notwithstanding her meritorious act of faith in love. Her intimate relation to the Trinity demanded that she be holy her entire life.

“…most holy Virgin Mary because of her special privileges – her role as Mother of God being the pre-eminent one – Mary’s outstanding holiness was not just a singular gift from God. It was also a result of that fact that she freely and earnestly heeded the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit at all times.”
*Pope Paul Vl, Signum Magnum ( A.D.1967) *

The ark of the covenant was made by sinners hands by the power of the one who ordered its construction (God) and yet the Glory and Majesty of his name was made known in it. Even if Mary is labeled as the new ark she was still created by sinful humankind and yet Gods Glory still over shadowed Mary.

Mary’s soul was created by God who sanctified it at the first instant of her conception. She was spared the concupiscence of the flesh, the concupiscence of the eyes, and the pride of life. Thus Mary could declare:

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord.”
Luke 1, 46

My point is God uses sinners!

But that doesn’t necessarily mean Mary had to be sinful. On the contrary, she had to be sinless by virtue of her divine maternity. She had already found favor with God by the time the angel greeted her (Lk 1, 30).

Even if Mary was born with Original sin that does NOT imply perfection or sinlessness. Paul states that ALL have sinned after the fall of Adam and Eve. Paul is not talking about personal sin but the original stain that every human being has ever since the fall.

The Greek word for “all” is pantes, so there can be an exception to the rule.

Of all the women of proven worth, you have excelled them all.
Proverbs 31, 29

Conversley, Jesus fits in this point quite nicely to rescue us with no cause of our own or some how deserving it.Therefore, Mary was in the same pit of mud that we are all standing in before we submitted our lives to Jesus.

If Mary was saved at conception because of her faith this is fine. But, Mary still needed a savior and she would still be considered a sinner by the natural order of how Adam and Eves fate ended up.

Mary was saved in a more becoming manner by being kept from falling into the mud pit. This manner of salvation is the wise and righteous design of Divine Providence and is independent of any merits of hers. Her redemption was preservative, while ours is curative. So she could exclaim with absolute confidence:

“My spirit rejoices in God my Savior.”
Luke 1, 47

PAX :tiphat:

 

[Dokimas]

Nothing in the verses you cited above point in anyway to your contention that it should be understood metaphorically. As a matter of fact, quite the contrary.

PS. I’m taking time off from CAF so will not be able to reply should your respond to this and my other post.

When Jesus said the things Paul quoted, which was before the crucifixion, did some of HIs living Body and flowing Blood leave Him and enter the bread and wine?​

Jesus used metaphors regularly; His parables were metaphors.​

I hope your time away from all this is restful or a good time for you. God bless and see you when you return.

 

[emseguin]

Dear rchapm77

That there would be truth essential to the faith outside the bible is unthinkable to me.

Yes, understandable, as that is what you have been taught all your life.
But dont you think there are things that are not in the Bible?
You think Christ said all that was to be said in however many pages? And to be interpreted by anyone? eek! :hypno::hypno:
You are limiting God, that is dangerous.

But how, if the Bible is the ONLY source of Faith, and faith outside is not possible, or infallible, either way, how can that be since the Bible cannot talk back? You cannot have a conversation with the Bible!
It is a book to be interpreted, not by whoever, but by someone appointed by God, someone whom Christ hada relationship with makes a lot more sense than someone born in 1517 or a wacko like Joseph Smith. (Sorry, but I believe him to be a complete wacko:shrug

Anyway, please answer the following then on Mary

Book of Genesis (3:15): “I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed; she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”

She is the new Eve, and you say we dont read the Scriptures!
The doctrine of Mary’s spiritual motherhood of men is contained in the fact that she is the antitype of Eve: Eve is our natural mother because she is the origin of our natural life; so Mary is our spiritual mother because she is the origin of our spiritual life.
Just as Eve cooperated with Adam in the Fall of mankind, the Blessed Virgin Mary cooperated with Jesus Christ in our redemption. She “stood by the Cross of Jesus.” What anguish, what sorrow did the Mother of Jesus experience at the foot of the Cross as she witnessed the sufferings and death of her Divine Son!

In both accounts, Jesus addressed Mary by the term woman. In Hebrew the word used by Jesus was a term which would be addressed to a queen or a woman of high rank. It was a term of great respect.

But why did Jesus Christ address His Mother by the term woman at these two significant moments in His life — at His first public miracle, and at His Crucifixion on the Cross?

Our Divine Lord wanted to clearly indicate that His Mother was the Woman spoken of in the Book of Genesis:

“I will put enmities between thee (Satan) and the Woman, between thy seed and her seed, and she shall crush thy head.”

Who is the “woman” in the text of Holy Scripture of whom Almighty God set enmities against Satan? Who is “her seed”? What is meant by the words “and she shall crush thy head”?

Those who are leary of Mary, or have no belief in Mary and her important ROLE, not worshipped or equal with Christ, BUT role, well are only led by a certain SOMEONE who has the biggest problem with Mary…and we all know who what SOMEONE is.

And if the Angel Gabriel address Mary as “Hail”, then that is proof enough, them being pure and united to God, well come on!
:clapping:
No one Hails to someone if they are “just” a mother to carry the Son of God and well, see ya later Mary!

Praise be to God

Peace of Christ to you!

JMJ

 

[elvisman]

Don’t insult me with your venomous words! It is not up to you to question my place within the brotherhood of Christs body. Ones salvation is attained by ones own allegiance to Christ himself. If you deny this then you deny the words that came forth from God himself. All those who call upon my name shall be saved. and in another place any person who confesses with his own lips that Jesus is Lord will be saved. Granted there is more to it than just confessing one MUST walk it as well. However, I would rather show and prove my faith to my fellow brother rather than boast about what the church says you must do to abtain salvation. For Gods word is exquisitely clear on this that who ever believes and does the will of God shall never perish but inherit eternal Glory! Thanks and peace to the invisible God to the glory of his name!

WRONG.
Again - faith to you is simple belief.
To the Church - faith is total surrender to God’s will - not just an intellectual ascent to a belief.

And, once again - if you’re not a Catholic - stop misrepresenting the Catholic Faith by claiming to be one.

 

[elvisman]

Also Elvis man it occurs to be too that one must have a personal relationship with Jesus and not just trusting in an institution. This conceitedness is what allowed Isreal to be led astray in let attacks from God in. Therefore, I have no ill content towards the Catholic church since I am myself a catholic. But being Catholic is once again a label and how do we define ourselves as Christians? I know we are all very passionate about our beliefs but in retro-spect it is really dog dung. Christ is all that really matters and how we reveal Jesus to other people is of utmost concern. Do we show love, respect, gratitude, go the extra mile in trying to serve Gods people, and at no cost to you in return. Most of the time I get criticized for being christian…I don’t need to be critized from my own brothers/sisters in Christ either. For we are called to build up the body of Christ and not tare it down.

Just as a master builder uses good cement for their structures we too should mold our lives on good cement and not stubble hay or mud that gets destroyed when the floods of life come in. I may have different views and opinions than lets say even other Catholics. But in reality what does it matter? what does it matter if Mary had other siblings or if Mary was a sinner like everybody else, does that affect ones faith? of course not because Jesus is salvation. And only he saves! Should it matter if one subscribes to all the teachings of the church or to one who questions/struggles with certian philosophies? No, of course not because Jesus is salvation.

Mary was indeed blessed amongst women because she gave birth to God incarnate. She helped raise God the best she could for what was given to her. Joseph was a good father for whatever time he had on Earth since he is only mentioned but a few times. Christ centerdness is what matters and how our relationship is with him.

Christ’s Church is dog dung?
What is wrong with you? Why would you make such a blaphemous and wicked claim?

Open your Bible to Acts 9:3-5.
***On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. ****He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" *
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Paul was persecutingthe CHURCH and Jesus equates himself with his Church - his VERY SELF. He said, why are you persecuting me?" **
When you make such a ridiculously moronic claim - you’re saying that Jesus himself is nothing but dog dung.**

 

[elvisman]

IYO, was Ted Kennedy a true Catholic?

In my opinion - absolutely NOT.
A true Catholic CANNOT be Pro Death - ANY Christian, for that matter.
Why do you ask?

 

[elvisman]

Would you call it arrogance when a person is incorrect and just won’t admit it? I have yet to see you admit you are wrong. From your own definition of ‘false witness’ you have been one and yet you refuse to address the issue, all the while you continue to throw the term at others.

What is it that I am wrong about?

 

[elvisman]

Don’t let Elvis upset you. Don’t be insulted by him either (please read PS 119:165 in the KJV).​

If I read Romans 2 (I think its Ro 2) somewhat correctly, theres a danger for a person who judges others for something then does the same thing. We should feel compassion for this man.​

Maybe I should do a better job of practicing what I say. We’ll see if I can.

Again - tell me what it is that I have done wrong instead of beating around the bush - which seems to be your favorite thing to do.

 

[elvisman]

Thank you for these scripture refrences they are helpful in understanding the reasoning behind the RCC believeing in scripture and tradition both being sources of infallable and essential truth, and that authority is held by the chruch (apostolic ministry, as I understood it from the scriptures you referenced), as opposed to the bible. But I have been taught all my life that scripture is the only source of both infallable and essential truth. Thats not to say I think there is no truth to be found outside of scripture. It is to say that I can not believe in the infallability of truth outside of scripture. Nor am I able to view it as essential because to do that would be to say that there are essential truths left outside the bible. That there would be truth essential to the faith outside the bible is unthinkable to me.

I think this is part of the reason why I and many other protestants are so reluctant to accept the dogmas about Mary as being infallable and esseintal.

And, unfortunately for the Protestant position, Sola Scriptura is not only NOT supported by Scripture - it’s debunked by the very scriptures Protestants hold to be the only source of truth.

The Bible itself points to the Church being the “pillar and foundation of truth” - NOT the Bible (1 Tim. 3:15) and credits with the Church having all authority - NOT the Bible (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).

**The Bible itself also puts that Sacred Tradition on par with the Scriptures as being authoritative (2 Thess. 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Tim. 2:2, 2 Tim. 12:14).
**

 

[Dokimas]

In my opinion - absolutely NOT.
A true Catholic CANNOT be Pro Death - ANY Christian, for that matter.
Why do you ask?

Then you agree with some of us that just because a person says they are Christian, doesn’t mean they are. Finally something to agree on.

 

[Dokimas]

What is it that I am wrong about?

Calling some of us anti-Catholic or Catholic haters, for example. There have been times you said some of us ‘bore false witness’ and that’s bee incorrect. I’ve called you on both issues and, to my knowledge, you have not answered me.​

Saying someone bears false witness when they do not, then it is you who bears false witness. I’ve cautioned you against doing what you accuse others of doing.

 

[Seraphim25]

WRONG.
Again - faith to you is simple belief.
To the Church - faith is total surrender to God’s will - not just an intellectual ascent to a belief.

**And, once again - if you’re not **a Catholic - stop misrepresenting the Catholic Faith by claiming to be one.

wow man! I really think you need to read the bible my brother in Christ…For those who confess that Christ is Lord and Adheres to his voice belong to Christ. Therefore, I know my Lord my king and my brother because I hear his voice and follow him. Tell me how does this contradict the teachings of the church?

 

[Seraphim25]

Christ’s Church is dog dung?
What is wrong with you? Why would you make such a blaphemous and wicked claim?

Open your Bible to Acts 9:3-5.
***On his journey, as he was nearing Damascus, a light from the sky suddenly flashed around him. ***He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Paul was persecutingthe CHURCH and Jesus equates himself** with his Church - his VERY SELF. He said, why are you persecuting me?"
When you make such a ridiculously moronic** claim - you’re saying that Jesus himself is nothing but dog dung.

I question if you really understood what I wrote? Re-read what I stated agan and stop putting words into my mouth. I pray that you will stop making yourself mad and twisting what others say to you.