Protestants and Mary

[JonNC]

Hi Elvisman,

**If the Reformers were **wrong about Mary – what makes you think they weren’t wrong about everything else. You have to resort to relativism to accept these 2 paradoxical elements.

Well, if the Reformers were *right *about Mary (which they were), what makes you think they weren’t right about everything else?

Much of what the Church believes about Mary is implicitly taught and not explicitly mentioned – but the same can be said for the Trinity

There is some truth to this, though I think the degree of explicitness of the Trinity is much higher.

The problem with the 21st Century Protestant views on Mary is that they developed over time out of contempt for the Church – not because they weren’t revealed truths. For example, Luther, Calvin and Zwingli ALL venerated Mary as a sinless, perpetual virgin. They knew that this was necessary for her to fulfill her role in salvation history.

Sadly there is some truth here, as well. And again, the Reformers were right about Mary.

The Early Church Fathers were unanimous in their teachings on Mary and veneration of her as a sinless, perpetual virgin. These are men that were put to death because of their adherence to their Catholic faith.

And this is as strong an argument as there is for the Marian doctrines, but still not strong enough to bind the conscience of the believer.

21st Century Protestants charge that it doesn’t matter who gave birth to Jesus. Many of you say that Jesus could have been born from anybody and still been the Messiah - he could have even been born of a harlot and it wouldn’t have mattered.

Not all of us, that’s for sure.

Jon

 

[supreme]

To me, Mary was a human being. Nothing more, nothing less, She should not be venerated because she is not Jesus. Granted, she gave birth to Jesus. But does that make her divine?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

To me, Mary was a human being.

That is very Catholic of you to say

She should not be venerated because she is not Jesus.

What is your definition of “venerate”?

Granted, she gave birth to Jesus. But does that make her divine?

You couldn’t be more correct. Mary is in no way divine.

We believe in one God…

God bless you

 

[Radical]

So what you are telling me is that we have a fallible list of infallible books??

No. I have explained that I believe that God ensured that the job was done correctly (by fallible men)…which is also what you believe, correct?

What if the list is wrong?

Then you and I have both assumed God did something that he didn’t do.

 

[Dokimas]

Scripture does not support your opinion. A messenger of God, the Archangel Gabriel, greeted Mary saying, “Hail, full of grace.” Someone who has sinned cannot be full of grace.

See Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant for more scriptural references to Mary’s purity.

Could you please back up this statement from Scripture?​

Romans 3 says ALL have sinned.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

To me, Mary was a human being. Nothing more, nothing less, She should not be venerated because she is not Jesus. Granted, she gave birth to Jesus. But does that make her divine?

No, it does not make her divine…but does it make her more than a “human being; nothing more, nothing less?” You bet it does. She was not your average human being. No indeed.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

And you are working under the misconception that Rome is without error and the true church.

The Church is* infallible* in matters of faith and morals.
It is us (Man) who are corrupt, not our Church. We twist things…we destroy…and we most definitely “pick and choose” what we want to believe, in some cases. But our Church…the True Church will remain unchanging.

 

[ufamtobie]

QUOTE=Dokimas;5667980]-
Mary was a special woman. We can learn a lot from her if we pay attention to what she said and how she responded to the situations in her life. Outside Jesus, I think she is one of those we should look to as an example of how to respond when life throws us ‘curves’.​

However, she was chosen out from among all of us. She was not better than we are. She was a sinner.

Dokimas, You are Wrong! Virgin Mary is far better than us we don’t come near to her, she is the Mother of Jesus Christ. Surly you know that Jesus Christ being born like us but without sin. Who do you think gave Jesus Christ his human Body? The Answer is Virgin Mary! Therfore if Jesus Christ was born without sin, this being so, Virgin Mary had to be Sinless as well, rememeber the Blood that flows through Jesus Christ came from his Mother Mary.

Have you ever looked at the Scriptures telling us how Jesus interacted with Mary? At least twice her, speaking to her, called her woman not mother (or mom). Once when He was brought news that His mothers and brothers had come to see Him, He responded saying, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Dokimas, What you don’t understand is Jesus Christ was praising his Mother Mary, How so? Now who hears the word of God More Than his own Mother. I tell you no one.

Maybe Jesus knew that people would one day misunderstand Mary’s role and make her out to be a person not intended by God. My guess is that Mary, if she’s paying attention to us from Heaven, cringes when she is exalted by us. I’ll bet she says, “NO, DON"T look to me, look to my Son. I’m just like you; I’ve needed saving and my Son saved me for all that calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. I called upon Him. Will you?”

Dokimas, Wrong! When the angel Gabriel came to Virgin Mary He greeted Virgin Mary by saying: Hail Mary Full of Grace.

Elizabeth, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, called out To Mary saying: Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.

John the Baptist, in his mothers womb left for joy when he heard Virgin Mary’s voice.

Dokimas, you mean to tell me that a baby in the womb knows more about who Virgin Mary is, than you do.

Ufam Tobie

 

[elvisman]

And you are working under the misconception that Rome is without error and the true church.

Please show me the Word Scapular in the Bible?

Sorry about the whole Faith in Yeshua Alone thing…

First of all - Rome ISN’T a Church - it’s a city.

Secondly, the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church started by Jesus Christ and can trace itself all the way back to the Gospels.
**Can you trace yours back past the 16th Century? **NOPE.

---

My guess is that you can’t even trace yours beyond the 20th Century. That should give you a clue that you’re not part of the Jesus’ only true Church.
I can prove MY claims with Scripture - you CAN’T.

As for the other part of your post:
"show me the Word Scapular in the Bible?"
Sorry, buddy - but your arguments are really sophomoric.

The scapula is one of the large trangular bones that are part of the shoulders - THAT’s where the word somes from.

If you’re going to play silly word games, then tell me something -
Show me the word, Bible in the Bible.
Show me the word, Protestant in the Bible.
Show me where the phrase, Faith alone, is found in the Bible (this is a trick question).
Show me the word, Trinity in the Bible.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas, You are Wrong! Virgin Mary is far better than us we don’t come near to her, she is the Mother of Jesus Christ. Surly you know that Jesus Christ being born like us but without sin. Who do you think gave Jesus Christ his human Body? The Answer is Virgin Mary! Therfore if Jesus Christ was born without sin, this being so, Virgin Mary had to be Sinless as well, rememeber the Blood that flows through Jesus Christ came from his Mother Mary.

Dokimas, What you don’t understand is Jesus Christ was praising his Mother Mary, How so? Now who hears the word of God More Than his own Mother. I tell you no one.

Dokimas, Wrong! When the angel Gabriel came to Virgin Mary He greeted Virgin Mary by saying: Hail Mary Full of Grace.

Elizabeth, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, called out To Mary saying: Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.

John the Baptist, in his mothers womb left for joy when he heard Virgin Mary’s voice.

Dokimas, you mean to tell me that a baby in the womb knows more about who Virgin Mary is, than you do.

Ufam Tobie

The only way to respond is to thank you for your opinion.​

Also, wasn’t it Jesus that said that it would be out of babes that wisdom would come. I’m not surprised that a baby in its mothers womb would be smarter than me and you.

 

[CWBetts]

Dokimas, Wrong! When the angel Gabriel came to Virgin Mary He greeted Virgin Mary by saying: Hail Mary Full of Grace.

Elizabeth, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, called out To Mary saying: Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me.

John the Baptist, in his mothers womb left for joy when he heard Virgin Mary’s voice.

Dokimas, you mean to tell me that a baby in the womb knows more about who Virgin Mary is, than you do.

Ufam Tobie

The only way to respond is to thank you for your opinion.​

Also, wasn’t it Jesus that said that it would be out of babes that wisdom would come. I’m not surprised that a baby in its mothers womb would be smarter than me and you.

So what you are really saying is"Sorry, I don’t believe that part of the Bible, all this is irrelevant, I have made up my mind and I will continue to blaspheme the Mother of God"

 

[Dokimas]

First of all - Rome ISN’T a Church - it’s a city.

Secondly, the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church started by Jesus Christ and can trace itself all the way back to the Gospels.
Can you trace yours back past the 16th Century? NOPE.

---

**My guess is that you can’t **even trace yours beyond the 20th Century. That should give you a clue that you’re not part of the Jesus’ only true Church.
I can prove MY claims with Scripture - you CAN’T.

**Show me the word, Bible **in the Bible.
**Show me the word, Protestant **in the Bible.
Show me where the phrase, Faith alone, is found in the Bible (this is a trick question).
Show me the word, Trinity in the Bible.

Rome is the center for your church.​

It’s your church dogma that says your church goes back to Jesus. Your church was started in the 4th and 5th centuries. It’s called the Roman Catholic Church for a reason.​

I’d be interested where you find ‘catholic’ in the Bible.!?

 

[JonNC]

So what you are really saying is"Sorry, I don’t believe that part of the Bible, all this is irrelevant, I have made up my mind and I will continue to blaspheme the Mother of God"

Carl,
Is the use “blaspheme” appropriate here? I thought blasphemy only applied to God. Disrespect might fit better, don’t you think?

Jon

 

[elvisman]

Hi Elvisman,

Well, if the Reformers were *right *about Mary (which they were), what makes you think they weren’t right about everything else?

**They ****WERE **right about many things that they learned from the Church.
Catholics and Protestants share more common beliefs than not.

Sadly there is some truth here, as well. And again, the Reformers were right about Mary.

Yes** – yes they were!**

And this is as strong an argument as there is for the Marian doctrines, but still not strong enough to bind the conscience of the believer.

I have to disagree with you here.
The Fathers were handed down their teachings from the Apostles – and they WERE bound by the Oral as well as the Written (2 Thess. 3:6, 2 Tim. 2:2, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Tim. 12:14).

Not all of us, that’s for sure.
Jon

You are absolutely correct, my friend.

 

[CWBetts]

Carl,
Is the use “blaspheme” appropriate here? I thought blasphemy only applied to God. Disrespect might fit better, don’t you think?

Jon

I used to think the same, John, but I have started in my Theology program and in my Moral Theology class we are reading a lot of the Catechism. Paragraph 2148 says that blasphemy “extends to the saints, the Church, and sacred things.” In this case, he was not showing the proper respect to one that God has elevated.

 

[Dokimas]

CWBetts: “So what you are really saying is"Sorry, I don’t believe that part of the Bible, all this is irrelevant, I have made up my mind and I will continue to blaspheme the Mother of God” "
What I’m saying it that there’s a chance that you’ve misinterpreted the Bible or believed the teachings of others that misunderstood the Bible.

 

[JonNC]

Rome is the center for your church.​

It’s your church dogma that says your church goes back to Jesus. Your church was started in the 4th and 5th centuries. It’s called the Roman Catholic Church for a reason.

“Roman Catholic Church”, like “Lutheran”, started as a pejorative used by the opponents of the Catholic Church, so it isn’t a proper name, as such. That both terms are generally adopted now by the respective communions should not minimize the fact that all of us should use good manners, and refer to others as they prefer.

Jon

 

[Dokimas]

“Roman Catholic Church”, like “Lutheran”, started as a pejorative used by the opponents of the Catholic Church, so it isn’t a proper name, as such. That both terms are generally adopted now by the respective communions should not minimize the fact that all of us should use good manners, and refer to others as they prefer.

Jon

The Catholic Church is centered in Rome; this gives some validity to the point I made.​

What poor manners are you referring to?

 

[CWBetts]

Rome is the center for your church.​

It’s your church dogma that says your church goes back to Jesus. Your church was started in the 4th and 5th centuries. It’s called the Roman Catholic Church for a reason.​

I’d be interested where you find ‘catholic’ in the Bible.!?

Actually, read the Fathers, like St. Cyprian, St. Polycarp, and St. Ignatius of Antioch. “Catholic” was used in a letter by Ignatius in the very early 2nd century (he himself was a disciple of St. John). Ignatius also talks of veneration of the Eucharist and loyalty to the Bishops. That sounds awfully Catholic to me. And I should tell you that there many Eastern Rite Catholics, that while Catholic, are not specifically ROMAN Catholic.

 

[JonNC]

I used to think the same, John, but I have started in my Theology program and in my Moral Theology class we are reading a lot of the Catechism. Paragraph 2148 says that blasphemy “extends to the saints, the Church, and sacred things.” In this case, he was not showing the proper respect to one that God has elevated.

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn’t aware of that. One thing my comment and your reply have done, however, is save all of us the inevitable charge from someone that your use of the term “blaspheme” in relation to the Blessed Virgin proves you think her a goddess.
Jon