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CWBetts
Guest
But Joseph had enough sense not to touch the Ark of the New Covenant, especially since there is some Scriptural evidence that she may have consecrated her virginity to begin with.
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Bengoshi
Guest
Didn’t you read Dokimas’ post well?! He said Jesus did not mean disrespect when He called Mary “woman.” It seems to me that you’re the one with animosity towards Protestants.
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prochrist1
Guest
“The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century”
Interesting stuff regarding regarding the assumption of mary found it here
newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm
Interesting stuff regarding regarding the assumption of mary found it here
newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm
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Agripa
Guest
“La Familia”, as mythological imagery is a fairly typical theme in ancient religions: In fact, the panoply of Roman gods and demigods read like a primitive soap opera with gods begetting with humans to create demi gods and the like.
The family itself was a mainstay of Roman civilization, a focus of the life and experiences of most Romans depended on the family, the family ties and the power of families. Families were also important to produce children for Rome - it was a sacred duty, for this ensured civilization, future tax revenues and future conscripts into the Roman armies.
It is quite clear to me that the Catholic Church, in its birth from the ashes of a dying Rome, would have taken up this impulse and imbued its theology with the cultural devotion Old Rome had with “family”. Further, there is always a base, primal human love of “mother”, of the feminine, so for Catholics to play upn that human urge, to deify mother (as most people do) it seems natural that as the myth of Jesus grew from radical rabbi to a god by his early followers, so too would his mother have been elevated over time to a near-god-like position in the fractious vision Catholics now hold of God.
All of these early theological precepts became greatly amplified and achieved engrained status over time aided greatly by the explosive catapolting of primitive Christianity into a huge institution (the RCC) out of the powerful political assistance Christianity received from the last of the Roman emporers as well as its formal adoption by Constantine.
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CWBetts
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The covenant aspect goes much further back than Constantine. Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David. The fulfillment of the Covenant came through Jesus Christ, who was not a myth by the way. The longevity of the faith actually is a testimony to its veracity. Longevity on its own is not enough. There have always been charlatans and liars claiming divinity, but their following always dies out. Not so with Jesus. And your insistence that Catholics revere Mary as some kind of “goddess” only reinforces your ignorance of Catholic teaching.
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AwGusTeen
Guest
Because God gave us more than ten. It’s not that difficult.
Just count em’.
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Agripa
Guest
No, I am well aware of what Catholic teaching is in regards to Mary. I was always taught to revere, respect and be aware of the deep love Mary has for us and for her Son, that she intercedes for us to God, that she is the humble handmaiden of God who submitted entirely to God the Father’s will (an ideal in any male-dominated society) and that she remained a pure virgin all her life (an ideal all fathers have for their daughters) and was so pure, she was assumed into heaven and that her conception was Immaculate and free of Original Sin.
I was also taught we can pray to Mary, that she has special powers, that she appears to people (mainly uneducated, peasant children in heavily Catholic countries). Sorry, but these are also the marks of a god or demi god, despite the contorted protestations of my local priest.
But mere knowledge of the Catechistic teaching does not necessarily equate with accepting, on faith, that it is in fact true. Mary to me, on a rational level, represents the ideal woman by cultures who looked at women as mere property - human beings who needed to submit entirely to the male. Women in the time of Jesus (and sadly, to this day) had to fulfill one role: Leave the control of her father who would set her up with the best suitor possible based on her family status and her sexual purity, then she would be given over to the control of her husband and simply bear him children. Mary represents this perfectly.
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CWBetts
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You my friend have a distorted view of Christianity. My guess is that you got an “education”, if you wont to call it that form a secular university, where you were indoctrinated with worship of self and the intellect
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Agripa
Guest
Actually, I had some of the finest Jesuit scholars teaching me in my undergrad days at the very secularized St. Louis University: Fr. Robert O’Toole, SJ, for example. An exegetical scholar of the highest pedigree. He actually interoduced me personally to the theologist Alfred North Whitehead at a symposium Fr. Bob invited me to attend in 1986. Those darn Jesuits, they do walk the tightrope between dogma and reason!! (I guess I slipped and fell into reason!
Then, of course, I had all that heavy Lutheran / Episcopalian influence at Valparaiso University, the so-called “Harvard” for Lutherans! That darn Prof. Richard Boepler, Dean of the Christ College at the time and an emminent Protestant scholar, well he taught us law students a few things about American Legal History and the role religious groups played in developing an American jurisprudence. Darn it, but I went and wrote the class honors research paper (1993) on the Development of Riparian Rights in the Wasatch Valley under none other than Brigham Young and those wacked out Mormans! (not the actual title.)
And yes, I do worship man’s intellect and the role man plays in this universe.
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elvisman
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An I PROVED to you from writings from the EARLY CHURCH in the first few centuries that the Chair of Peter was considered to be the ONE office of Supremacy within the Church. This was WAY before the Orthodox split with the True Church in the eleventh century.
You really need to pay attention to what you say when it gets thrown right back in your face - which it did.
Like I said - if YOU accept that the Early Church - whatever that was - was the TRUE Church up until the 11th century, you MUST accept what was taught. I showed you that they accepted the Petrine Supremacy centuries before the split.
Sorry, Justy - you lose.
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RickHolland
Guest
That should be a flag as I see it. Marilolgy devevoped over time because of a few people who had power over the Church and an infatuation or obsession with a “Mary”. Queen of Heaven is not a good title to have.
"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and {they} pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me.
“But rather we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the ***queen of heaven ***and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for {then} we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune.” “But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have met our end by the sword and by famine.” “And,” {said the women,} “when we were burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were pouring out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands that we made for her {sacrificial} cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings to her?”…‘This will be the sign to you,’ declares the LORD, ‘that I am going to punish you in this place, so that you may know that My words will surely stand against you for harm.’
Now you offer sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven in a spiritual sense, which as I see it, is deadlier than the physical sense.
Rev. 12
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
relates directly to Gensis 37
Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” He related {it} to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”
Why 11 stars and not 12, because the dearmer, Joseph is the 12th star. Both Revelation 12 and Gensis 37 speak of the 12 tribes, which is Israel. Often refered as a “woman”.
How do you deal with the fact that the Greek, unlike the Hebrew, distinguishes “brother” from “cousin”. For example look at the following:
Col 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} ***Barnabas’s cousin Mark ***(about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);
Cousin; “anepsios”: a cousin
How do you escape or overlook this (above & below)?
“But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.” -Gal 1:9
Can’t be referring as a spiritual brother, he already recognized him as an apostle.
Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. “For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” For not even His brothers were believing in Him. - John 7
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elvisman
Guest
First of all – this was in reply to post by leighfus – not Dokimas.
Secondly, I have no animosity towards Protestants or any other non-Catholics – as three quarters of my 12 siblings are Protestant and I love them dearly. Some of them are anti-Catholics - but NOW they know better than to speak ill of the Church in my presence.
I refuse to listen to attacks on Mary or Christ’s Catholic Church, whether they are explicit or implicit. I will not idly sit back and allow people to speak or write lies about the Church – as they pertain to Mary or anything else.
I will always defend these things, no matter how harsh the anti-Catholic sentiment is.**
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elvisman
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You’re DEAD wrong.
We have writings from the Early church Fathers indicating that this was ALWAYS a belief of the Church from the beginning:
Pseudo – Melito
If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: “Be it done according to your will” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2-17 A.D. 300]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption (Homily on Simeon and Anna A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
The Lord said to his Mother, "Let your heart rejoice and be glad. For every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your (Mary’s) name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens". . . And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise (The Dormition of Mary A.D. 400]).
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RickHolland
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Your posts caught my attention because of the colors, perhaps that is your attempt to get attention?? You say one thing as highlighted in pink above, but your words tell something different as I see it. Just thought you might want to note from someone who has stumbled across this thread and stubled onto your use of color, which prompted me to look at a few of your posts. They do not come across as someone who does not have a “beef” with nonCatholics.
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elvisman
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If that’s your perception - so be it.
I already stated my position - for the record. IF I had a beef with non-Catholics - I would have animosity towards my own siblings - which I do not.
I refuse to allow anti-Catholic remarks to be made. It’s just something you’ll have to live with if you wish to remain in this forum.
As for your dislike of color - get in line with the rest of the color-haters and get over it.
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Agripa
Guest
Hmmmm, consecration of virginity was certainly a Roman tradition, i.e. the Vestal Virgins (where do you think Catholics took up the whole nun business anyway?!).
However, I think you are on shakey ground about Mary, a married Jew, consecrating her virginity. Please provide evidence of this. Had Joseph lived with a consecrated virgin in those ancient Hebrew times, that would have been a huge problem for all their families.
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CWBetts
Guest
This is not official Church doctrine, but it is the only way her response to the St. Gabriel would make sense. If she did not already make some kind of vow, why was she confused about how she could bear the Messiah? Also, sacrificial vows were not unknown to the Jews. You are making the all too common mistake of assuming that Judaism didn’t do anything on its own.
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RickHolland
Guest
There is a difference between the feelings and attitudes you have toward family members and the attitudes you express in writing. It makes no difference to me, those that may be here thinking of looking at the Catholic faith may stumble across your posts as I did and the faith you love and defend becomes less attractive. Take it for what it is worth.If that’s your perception - so be it.
I already stated my position - for the record. IF I had a beef with non-Catholics - I would have animosity towards my own siblings - which I do not.
I refuse to allow anti-Catholic remarks to be made. It’s just something you’ll have to live with if you wish to remain in this forum.
As for your dislike of color - get in line with the rest of the color-haters and get over it.
Your attitude was expressed even further by the remark you made above on the colors. I never said anything was wrong with using color; it is eye catching.
As I said; it doesn’t bother me, but thought you may want to know how negative you appear; I’m sure it is your zeal for the Catholic Church, which is great.
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RickHolland
Guest
To Anyone who wants to refute what the Bible has said: - Color inspired by ElvisMan 
Marilolgy doctines devevoped over time because of a few people who had power over the Church and an infatuation or obsession with a “Mary” as I see and understand.
Queen of Heaven is not a good title to have.
"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and {they} pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me.
“But rather we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the ***queen of heaven ***and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for {then} we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune.” “But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the ***queen of heaven ***and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have met our end by the sword and by famine.” “And,” {said the women,} “when we were burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were pouring out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands that we made for her {sacrificial} cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings to her?”…‘This will be the sign to you,’ declares the LORD, ‘that I am going to punish you in this place, so that you may know that My words will surely stand against you for harm.’
Don’t you offer sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven in a spiritual sense?
Rev. 12:1-2
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
Gensis 37
Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, ***the sun and the moon and eleven stars ***were bowing down to me.” He related {it} to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”
Why 11 stars and not 12? Because the 12th star is Joseph, the dreamer. Both Revelation 12 and Gensis 37 speak of the 12 tribes, which is Israel. Often refered as a “woman”.
How do you deal with the fact that the Greek, unlike the Hebrew, distinguishes “brother” from “cousin”. For example look at the following:
Col 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);
Cousin; “anepsios”: a cousin
How do you rationalize or overlook this (above & below)?
“But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.” -Gal 1:9
Can’t be referring as a spiritual brother, he already recognized him as an apostle.
Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. “For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” For not even His brothers were believing in Him. - John 7
Marilolgy doctines devevoped over time because of a few people who had power over the Church and an infatuation or obsession with a “Mary” as I see and understand.
Queen of Heaven is not a good title to have.
"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and {they} pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me.
“But rather we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the ***queen of heaven ***and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for {then} we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune.” “But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the ***queen of heaven ***and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have met our end by the sword and by famine.” “And,” {said the women,} “when we were burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were pouring out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands that we made for her {sacrificial} cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings to her?”…‘This will be the sign to you,’ declares the LORD, ‘that I am going to punish you in this place, so that you may know that My words will surely stand against you for harm.’
Don’t you offer sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven in a spiritual sense?
Rev. 12:1-2
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
Gensis 37
Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, ***the sun and the moon and eleven stars ***were bowing down to me.” He related {it} to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”
Why 11 stars and not 12? Because the 12th star is Joseph, the dreamer. Both Revelation 12 and Gensis 37 speak of the 12 tribes, which is Israel. Often refered as a “woman”.
How do you deal with the fact that the Greek, unlike the Hebrew, distinguishes “brother” from “cousin”. For example look at the following:
Col 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);
Cousin; “anepsios”: a cousin
How do you rationalize or overlook this (above & below)?
“But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.” -Gal 1:9
Can’t be referring as a spiritual brother, he already recognized him as an apostle.
Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. “For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” For not even His brothers were believing in Him. - John 7
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CWBetts
Guest
Where in the world do you get that we offer sacrifices to Mary? We don’t ever. All sacrifices are offered to God alone. To say otherwise is to willfully slander the CHurch founded by Jesus. I wonder what God thinks about that.
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