Protestants and Mary

[Justy90]

**To Anyone **who wants to refute what the Bible has said: - Color inspired by ElvisMan

Marilolgy doctines devevoped over time because of a few people who had power over the Church and an infatuation or obsession with a “Mary” as I see and understand.

 

[Justy90]

Your posts caught my attention because of the colors, perhaps that is your attempt to get attention?? You say one thing as highlighted in pink above, but your words tell something different as I see it. Just thought you might want to note from someone who has stumbled across this thread and stubled onto your use of color, which prompted me to look at a few of your posts. They do not come across as someone who does not have a “beef” with nonCatholics.

You’ve got the guy pegged.

 

[CWBetts]

You’ve got the guy pegged.

More vacuous quips form someone who has nothing better to do than to drive up his post count with inanity.

 

[2nd_Adam]

To my fellow Cristians who don’t have the same teahings as the RCC as regards the Blessed Mother. We all know that Christ is the Savior, The “Lord of Lords” and “King of Kings”, but have you ever thought of Mary in the context that Her body is part of Christ’s physical body? And that is one of the reasons why she holds such a high status in the Church? Evan Islam pays her due homage!

To be honest, if Islam pays Mary due homage similar to Catholics, then that’s not necessarily a good thing since Islam rejects the biblical Jesus Christ and the glorious gospel of our Triune God. As Christians, what do we really have in common with Islam?

 

[Justy90]

More vacuous quips form someone who has nothing better to do than to drive up his post count with inanity.

Now come on CW, no need to be brash.

 

[CWBetts]

To be honest, if Islam pays Mary due homage similar to Catholics, then that’s not necessarily a good thing since Islam rejects the biblical Jesus Christ and the glorious gospel of our Triune God. As Christians, what do we really have in common with Islam?

That is fallacious. If x accepts y, and x is bad, it does not follow that y is bad. For example: Muslims do not drink alcohol, therefore avoiding alcohol is bad. This makes no sense. Make your criticism based on the object itself, and not by associated objects.

 

[RickHolland]

Where in the world do you get that we offer sacrifices to Mary? We don’t ever. All sacrifices are offered to God alone. To say otherwise is to willfully slander the CHurch founded by Jesus. I wonder what God thinks about that.

I asked a question; I did not presume, then I began to think of how we make sacrifices to God and compared that to how a Catholic person may do the same with Mary.

Do you spend time in prayer to or with Mary? (i.e.praying the rosary) The sacrifice of time.

Are feast made in honor of Mary? Sacrafice of time, energy and money.

Do Catholics distibute prayer cards pertaining to Mary or prayers to Mary? The sacrifice of time and money.

Are their websites devoted to Mary? The sacrifice time and money.

Are volumes of books and other literature written and bought about Mary? Sacrifice of time, resources and money.

Are pilgrimages made to places of apparitions of Mary (i.e.Fatima ) The sacrifice of time, resources and money.

Time, money, resources and energy; don’t we also sacrifice these things to honor God? See the point?

 

[RickHolland]

More vacuous quips form someone who has nothing better to do than to drive up his post count with inanity.

What does one gain from driving up a post count? Is there some reward? Are you having a bad day? Anything I can help with?

 

[2nd_Adam]

That is fallacious. If x accepts y, and x is bad, it does not follow that y is bad. For example: Muslims do not drink alcohol, therefore avoiding alcohol is bad. This makes no sense. Make your criticism based on the object itself, and not by associated objects.

I just don’t understand what the OP was speaking about validating the Catholic view on Mary based on Muslim beliefs about Mary. So, what do we have in common with Islam in regards to Christianity? Do you mind answering my question?

 

[elvisman]

**To Anyone **who wants to refute what the Bible has said: - Color inspired by ElvisMan

Marilolgy doctines devevoped over time because of a few people who had power over the Church and an infatuation or obsession with a “Mary” as I see and understand.

Queen of Heaven is not a good title to have.

"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and {they} pour out drink offerings to other gods in order to spite Me.

“But rather we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the ***queen of heaven ***and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our forefathers, our kings and our princes did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for {then} we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune.” “But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the ***queen of heaven ***and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have met our end by the sword and by famine.” “And,” {said the women,} “when we were burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and were pouring out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands that we made for her {sacrificial} cakes in her image and poured out drink offerings to her?”…‘This will be the sign to you,’ declares the LORD, ‘that I am going to punish you in this place, so that you may know that My words will surely stand against you for harm.’

Don’t you offer sacrifices to the Queen of Heaven in a spiritual sense?

Rev. 12:1-2
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she *cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Gensis 37
Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, ***the sun and the moon and eleven stars ***were bowing down to me.” He related {it} to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”

Why 11 stars and not 12? Because the 12th star is Joseph, the dreamer. Both Revelation 12 and Gensis 37 speak of the 12 tribes, which is Israel. Often refered as a “woman”.

This is just proof of your inability to grasp polyvalent symbolism.
Polyvalent symbolism is when multiple meanings are revealed in a in prophecy, dream or vision.

The Woman sp****oken of in Rev. 12 can be taken to mean Israel and Mary. The Child, Jesus and the Church. It correlates directly with the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and the Woman at the foot of the cross (Mary). What does Jesus call his mother in the New Testament? He calls her WOMAN.

In John 19:26, he again calls her Woman at the foot of the cross because the prophecy from Gen. 3:15 is taking place as her offspring is crushing the sepent’s head.

A rudimentary study of the Scriptures can reveal many things to you - if you’re willing to look at them without having your anti-Catholic blinders on . . .

 

[elvisman]

You’ve got the guy pegged.

**Now, now, Justy - **
Just because you can’t give an educated answer to any of my posts is no reason for your little ad hominem assaults . . .

 

[elvisman]

How do you deal with the fact that the Greek, unlike the Hebrew, distinguishes “brother” from “cousin”. For example look at the following:

Col 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);

Cousin; “anepsios”: a cousin

How do you rationalize or overlook this (above & below)?
“But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.” -Gal 1:9
Can’t be referring as a spiritual brother, he already recognized him as an apostle.

Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. “For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be known publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” For not even His brothers were believing in Him. - John 7

Well, Rick -
That is a well- presented argument – NOT.
Allow me to educate you.

First of all, nobody is saying that James or the other “brothers” of Jesus were cousins. Those brothers named in Scripture were the sons of the “other Mary“ (Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25) and her husband Clopas (or Alphaeus). They might have been cousins, step brothers, kinsman distant relations, boyhood friends or even neighbors.**

You see – Jesus and his Apostles spoke Aramaic, not Greek. The word for “brother” in Aramaic is “Ach”. This word can be used to describe ANY of the meanings I listed above. Now – let’s move on to the Greek word for “brother” – “Adelphos”.

In the Septuagint, which Jesus studied from – and there are dozens of NT verses that refer to the Septuagint to substantiate this claim. In the Septuagint, we see that the normal Greek word for Brother is used very loosely. For example, Lot is called the “Adelphos” of Abraham – even thought Lot was his nephew (his brother, Haran’s son). Still with me? Good – let’s move on.

**In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the “brother” (Adelphos) of his uncle Laban.
**In 1 Chr. 23:21–22, brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their “brethren,” (Adelphoi, plural of Adelphos) the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins.

In Acts 1:16, we see that there are 120 “Adelphoi” that Peter is addressing. I sincerely doubt that they all had the same mother.

Do you see now that you don’t have the clear-cut case you thought you did, my anti-Catholic friend?

 

[elvisman]

There is a difference between the feelings and attitudes you have toward family members and the attitudes you express in writing. It makes no difference to me, those that may be here thinking of looking at the Catholic faith may stumble across your posts as I did and the faith you love and defend becomes less attractive. Take it for what it is worth.

Your attitude was expressed even further by the remark you made above on the colors. I never said anything was wrong with using color; it is eye catching.

As I said; it doesn’t bother me, but thought you may want to know how negative you appear; I’m sure it is your zeal for the Catholic Church, which is great.

Hey - if you can see into my heart - then you’re God.
Ummm . . . I choose to believe you’re not. Judging a person’s heart and perceived motives is God’s job, not yours (Matt. 7:1-5).

As for whether ot not you made a snide somment at my expense regarding my use of color - you did. Your words: ***"…*perhaps that is your attempt to get attention??"

---

If you don’t like my posts - then don’t read them. Maybe that will alleviate some of your frustration with me and your phobia of color.

 

[RickHolland]

This is just proof of your inability to grasp polyvalent symbolism.
Polyvalent symbolism is when multiple meanings are revealed in a in prophecy, dream or vision.

The Woman sp****oken of in Rev. 12 can be taken to mean Israel and Mary. The Child, Jesus and the Church. It correlates directly with the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and the Woman at the foot of the cross (Mary). What does Jesus call his mother in the New Testament? He calls her WOMAN.

In John 19:26, he again calls her Woman at the foot of the cross because the prophecy from Gen. 3:15 is taking place as her offspring is crushing the serpent’s head.

A rudimentary study of the Scriptures can reveal many things to you - if you’re willing to look at them without having your anti-Catholic blinders on . . .

Biblical scholar?

Gen. 3:15 “And I will put enmity Between you (devil and all nonbelievers) and the woman (the godly in Christ), And between your seed (devil and all nonbelievers) and her seed(Jesus and those in Him); He (Jesus) shall bruise you on the head, And you (devil) shall bruise him (Jesus suffering) on the heel.”

John is calling her woman because of what? This is called gross imposition on the text.

There you go with the anti-Catholic sentiment, which is the same poor attitude as “I don’t like non Catholics.” That is fine, but not Christian in any manner.

“But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.” - 2 Corinthians

 

[Dokimas]

This is just proof of your inability to grasp polyvalent symbolism.
Polyvalent symbolism is when multiple meanings are revealed in a in prophecy, dream or vision.

The Woman sp****oken of in Rev. 12 can be taken to mean Israel and Mary. The Child, Jesus and the Church. It correlates directly with the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and the Woman at the foot of the cross (Mary). What does Jesus call his mother in the New Testament? He calls her WOMAN.

In John 19:26, he again calls her Woman at the foot of the cross because the prophecy from Gen. 3:15 is taking place as her offspring is crushing the sepent’s head.

A rudimentary study of the Scriptures can reveal many things to you - if you’re willing to look at them without having your anti-Catholic blinders on . . .

You are most likely stretching the limit of symbolism with you claim of ‘the woman’ and Mary.​

Note how the same Hebrew word is used in context:

Ge 3:13 And the LORD God said to the woman <0802>, “What is this you have done?” The woman <0802> said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
Ge 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman <0802>, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."
Ge 3:16 To the woman <0802> He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”
Ge 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife <0802>, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
Ge 3:20 And Adam called his wife’s <0802> name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
Ge 3:21 Also for Adam and his wife <0802> the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.​

Ge 3:21 Also for Adam and his wife <0802> the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.
Ge 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife <0802>, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the LORD.”
Ge 4:17 And Cain knew his wife <0802>, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son––Enoch.
Ge 4:19 Then Lamech took for himself two wives <0802>: the name of one was Adah, and the name of the second was Zillah.​

One doesn’t have to be anti-Catholic to read the Bible and come up with very different understandings about Mary and other things.​

I find it very interesting that you stretch symbolism, yet when there is a clear symbolic statement by Jesus you take it very literal: the wine and bread turning into the Body and Blood of Jesus. When Jesus first offered it to His disciples all His Body and Blood were in tact so the disciples could not have them literally. Jesus spoke symbolically.​

BTW, if Jesus instituted the “Last Supper” with real bread and real wine, why does the Catholic Church use a wafer? I’m sure this is off topic so if you want to move ist somewhere else, I don’t mind.

 

[RickHolland]

**Well, Rick **-
That is a well- presented argument – NOT.
Allow me to educate you.

**First of all, nobody is saying that James or the other “brothers” of Jesus were cousins. Those brothers named in Scripture were the sons of the “other Mary“ (Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25) and her husband Clopas (or Alphaeus). They might have been cousins, step brothers, kinsman distant relations, boyhood friends or even neighbors.

You see – Jesus and his Apostles spoke Aramaic, not Greek. The word for “brother” in Aramaic is “Ach”. This word can be used to describe ANY of the meanings I listed above. Now – let’s move on to the Greek word for “brother” – “Adelphos”.

In the Septuagint, which Jesus studied from – and there are dozens of NT verses that refer to the Septuagint to substantiate this claim. In the Septuagint, we see that the normal Greek word for Brother is used very loosely. For example, Lot is called the “Adelphos” of Abraham – even thought Lot was his nephew (his brother, Haran’s son). Still with me? Good – let’s move on.

In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the “brother” *(Adelphos) *of his uncle Laban.
In 1 Chr. 23:21–22, brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their “brethren,” (Adelphoi, *plural of Adelphos) *the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins.

In Acts 1:16, we see that there are 120 “Adelphoi” that Peter is addressing. I sincerely doubt that they all had the same mother.

**Do you see now that you don’t **have the clear-cut case you thought you did, my anti-Catholic friend?

Straw man arguments; convenient to say Aramaic to try to make your point and use the Greek to try to make some others points. Just like Matthew 16:18-19. The apostles and Jesus spoke in many languages and depending on what part of the empire you were in and where you were preaching you would have spoken in Amamic, Hebrew or Greek. However the Holy Spirit gaves us the Greek for good reason; to rebuke people such as yourself from distorting the word of God, which you seem to take pleasure in.

I doubt there is much education you could give anyone on God’s Word.

 

[RickHolland]

Hey - if you can see into my heart - then you’re God.
Ummm . . . I choose to believe you’re not. Judging a person’s heart and perceived motives is God’s job, not yours (Matt. 7:1-5).

As for whether ot not you made a snide somment at my expense regarding my use of color - you did. Your words: ***"…***perhaps that is your attempt to get attention??"

---

**If you don’t **like my posts - then don’t read them. Maybe that will alleviate some of your frustration with me and your phobia of color.

Your pride is your downfall. Don’t confuse that which is easily discernable, a gift of God, from judging a persons soul. Jesus called us to make certain judgments and to pray for discernment. You are easy to discern.

 

[elvisman]

Biblical scholar?

Gen. 3:15 “And I will put enmity Between you (devil and all nonbelievers) and the woman (the godly in Christ), And between your seed (devil and all nonbelievers) and her seed(Jesus and those in Him); He (Jesus) shall bruise you on the head, And you (devil) shall bruise him (Jesus suffering) on the heel.”

John is calling her woman because of what? This is called gross imposition on the text.

There you go with the anti-Catholic sentiment, which is the same poor attitude as “I don’t like non Catholics.” That is fine, but not Christian in any manner.

“But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.” - 2 Corinthians

These teachings of Mary were being written about as early as the 2nd Century by the Early Church and Church Fathers - and you want me to take YOUR word for it?
Uhhhh . . . I don’t think so:

Ireneus, circa 180-199 AD wrote, “Against Heresies”. In it, he wrote of Mary:
*“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying: “Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve, however, was disobedient; and when yet a virgin, she did not obey…. having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race;
so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race…. Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith.” *
Tertullian wrote in his “The Flesh of Christ” in about 208-212 AD
“For it was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise, through a Virgin, the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus, what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex, was by the same sex re-established in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight.”

**When I refer to you as an anti-Catholic - it’s not out of acrimony - it’s just a fact.
Ask yourself honestly:
Whay am I on this Catholic forum? To have charitable dialogue or to push an agenda?
I think you’ll find the latter is true . . .

 

[elvisman]

Your pride is your downfall. Don’t confuse that which is easily discernable, a gift of God, from judging a persons soul. Jesus called us to make certain judgments and to pray for discernment. You are easy to discern.

Not pride - just defending the faith and fighting the good fight against spiritually prideful dissenters from Christ’s only Church and other rebellious men with their own agendas.

 

[elvisman]

Straw man arguments; convenient to say Aramaic to try to make your point and use the Greek to try to make some others points. Just like Matthew 16:18-19. The apostles and Jesus spoke in many languages and depending on what part of the empire you were in and where you were preaching you would have spoken in Amamic, Hebrew or Greek. However the Holy Spirit gaves us the Greek for good reason; to rebuke people such as yourself from distorting the word of God, which you seem to take pleasure in.

I doubt there is much education you could give anyone on God’s Word.

Not straw man arguments at all. Your anger is very telling.
You can’t come back with anything but ad hominem attacks.

PROVE me wrong about the Greek vs. the Aramaic. PROVE me wrong about the Septuagint use of the words Adelphos and Adelphoi.
You can’t - and that frustrates you.

**As for Matt. 16:18-19 - if you want to go through the humiliation of being proven wrong there - start another thread and I’ll gladly educate you on the Aramaic vs. the Greek.
This thread is about Protestans and Mary.