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fbl9
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Just what sins did Mary commit??..Everyone calls Mary a sinner but none have ever stated just what these mysterious sins were.
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guanophore
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I certainly do not have one that will satisfy you. You see, to me, Jesus preserving His Word in the Church required a lot of miracles. You have already stated that these did not happen after the Apostles. Therefore, you will not likely accept anything I believe that requires supernatural intervention, like infallibility.
Read it again, Rick. I said “compendium”. They are a collection of the memoirs of the Apostles and letters to the early Church. They were not intended to contain the sum total of the Apostolic teaching.
Sacred Apostolic Tradition is the Teaching that was handed down to us by the Apostles. It has been infallibly protected by the 'Spirit of God.
On what do you base the modern innovation that Scripture contains all that is needed for salvation? Where in scripture does it say that everything is in scripture? Never mind, it is off topic here anyway.
Mary the mother of Jesus did not . Another Mary, a near kindred of hers (called her sister) had scads of kids. The scriptures refer to them as the brothers and sisters of the Lord.
News flash again Rick. (I think you may have missed the other one). You are not God.
Your perception of scripture is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.
I am not sure why this issue seems to be so important to you, Rick. Why dont’ you just let it go? Can’t you accept that us old fashioned Churches who believe we have followed the Apostolic command to preserve what was given by word of mouth, or by letter, just believe differently than you?
Several provisions have been offered, and you have rejected them all.
Sacred Tradition, among other things encompasses the world view of the Apostles. It governs how we perceive things, including the meaning of scripture. In the NT, it is called The Way. It is a way of life that reflects and embodies the teachings of Jesus. It has been preserved in the Church by the power of the HS. This is what we believe He meant when He said He would guide the Church into all truth, that the gates of hell would not prevail, and that He would not leave them orphaned.
Christianity is not a “religion of the book” as some erroneously believe. Our faith is not “bible based” in the way yours is. We do not try to construct our doctrine by parsing the scriptures. This is beyond your understanding because you come from a faith tradition that has been separated from the Apostolic Succession for almost 500 years.
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guanophore
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Yes, I was a Protestant for a long time. I was in a vast variety of churches, some weak, some strong. I did not turn to Catholicism because of any of the faith communities, though, but because of seminary. My methodist pastor sent me for training so that I could take more responsibility in the ministry. When I got to seminary, I studied historical theology, and realized the early Christians were Catholic.
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Bengoshi
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You sure love to go on using ad hominem attackes intead of answering the issues head on!
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guanophore
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It looks like you looked these up. Can we now agree that allowing something to be printed does not mean it is "official catholic doctrine " as you presented?
Catholics are allowed to publish there personal opinions, including their love relationships with the Mother of the Lord. They can publish their poetry, hymns, dreams, visions, and all manner of things they believe they got from God. Allowing these things to be published does not make them official Catholic Doctrine.
If this is true, you might wish to consider using a less mocking tone. Sarcasm is not part of the Spirit in which Peter directs us to defend our faith, is it?
Actually, I think you mean this the other way around. I think you wish to examine the Catholic Doctrine on Mary in the light of God’s word. Or, at least I hope you said it backwards, because it is clear you really have no idea what catholics believe,and the catholic things you do understand (presented quite sarcastically) are clearly not a source of "light’ for you.
I understand this is the case in your mind. It also seems as though you believe you have the mind of Christ, and what Rick thinks is actually "God says’, because this is how you have presented yourself several times.
God committed His word to the Church in two forms, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition. They are considered equally inerrant, inspired, and preserved by His grace.
As a result of receiving the Apostles’ teaching preserved by Him through the Church, yes, we do resist the modern innovations that you try to present. We are not at liberty to abandon what was given to us by the Apostles for a “different gospel” that has emerged less than 500 years ago. If you look you will find that even the Reformers accepted these Apostolic Teachings about Mary.
Hope springs eternal.
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guanophore
Guest
Have you found anything in scripture that indicates it is supposed to be a complete compendium of the Christian faith?
Do you find in there that Scripture is all that is required?
Do you find anything that indicates Scripture ought to be the the final authority on matters of faith and morals?
Can you please show me in scripture where is the list of books that belong in Scripture?
Your table of contents does not count, because that was added by Catholics.
How does insisting that Mary never had any children “serve the purpose of Catholicism”? What purpose is that?
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Bengoshi
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Mediatrix is just the feminine form of mediator. Yes, all those who genuinely belive in the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved are saints by definition.Correction: she is mediatrix. And Jesus is our mediator with the Father.
I could correct all of your mistakes, but, sadly, I just don’t have the patience tonight. (I’m praying to the Holy Spirit for that)
P.S. Only Saints are in Heaven and Mary is in Heaven…unless you believe she is somewhere else…?
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Bob4BVM
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And on and on and on and on…
It is amazing what we cannot see (in scripture or anywhere else), when we do not WANT to see it.
This thread could go on for a million posts and people will still not see what they do not want to see, no matter how good a case is made for it.
Others have said it better than me, so to the great defenses many have given here for our Blessed Mother, let me add a few from people much better at it than I:
from St. Augustine:
“If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.”
from Martin Luther :
(Please note that Luther wrote these comments, not while he was a Catholic, but years after he left the Church, shortly before his death in 1546.)
“She, the lady above Heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble, that she would have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility. Surely it would have been more just to arrange for her a golden coach, pulled by 4000 horses. And to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded, here passes the woman who was raised above the whole human race. She was not filled with pride by this praise, this immense praise.”
“No woman is like unto thee, thou art more than an empress or a queen. Blessed above all nobility, wisdom, or saintliness.”
and of course from our Lady herself:
Luke 1:…
46 And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
So keep slugging away boys, but in my experience, teaching the truth to a fundamentalist is a lot like performing an exorcism.
I, like our Lady, am more interested in winning a soul than winning an argument.
+Peace,
Bob
It is amazing what we cannot see (in scripture or anywhere else), when we do not WANT to see it.
This thread could go on for a million posts and people will still not see what they do not want to see, no matter how good a case is made for it.
Others have said it better than me, so to the great defenses many have given here for our Blessed Mother, let me add a few from people much better at it than I:
from St. Augustine:
“If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.”
from Martin Luther :
(Please note that Luther wrote these comments, not while he was a Catholic, but years after he left the Church, shortly before his death in 1546.)
“She, the lady above Heaven and earth, must have a heart so humble, that she would have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist, like a servant girl. What humility. Surely it would have been more just to arrange for her a golden coach, pulled by 4000 horses. And to cry and proclaim as the carriage proceeded, here passes the woman who was raised above the whole human race. She was not filled with pride by this praise, this immense praise.”
“No woman is like unto thee, thou art more than an empress or a queen. Blessed above all nobility, wisdom, or saintliness.”
and of course from our Lady herself:
Luke 1:…
46 And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
So keep slugging away boys, but in my experience, teaching the truth to a fundamentalist is a lot like performing an exorcism.
I, like our Lady, am more interested in winning a soul than winning an argument.
+Peace,
Bob
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Bengoshi
Guest
Hi there! I agree with you on the points raised above. I used to not understand Catholic teaching on these matters but now, after studying Catholicism, I realize that a lot of the things said by Protestants against the RCC is simply not true. Just like what Bishop Fulton Sheen has said before that there are not over a hundred people who hate the Catholic Church but there are thousands who hate what they think is the Catholic Church. However, I am an Evangelical Christian because there are still some things that I strongly disagree with the RCC, nevertheless, by studying the RCC and its history, I have come to a better understanding and appreciation of the same. Moreover, I am exhorting the Catholic heirarchy to strengthen the education of their flock. Take some discipleship tips from Protestants as what we are doing is very effective. A LOT of professing die-hard Catholics here in our country do not really know what the RCC teaches. I am even more knowledgeable about Catholic dogma and doctrine than most of the devout Catholics here.WRONG again.
Boy, you anti-Catholic never do your homework before spewing your ignorance.
Holy water - symbolizes our Baptism in Jesus Christ. Uhhhh . . . HE and his Apostles also used water for Baptism. Wanna call Jesus a pagan?
Halos were used in ART over the centuries by Christian painters and sculptors to illustrate the light of God that surrounds those in heaven. This was not something that the Church told the artists to do.
Bowing before statues is NOT something that the Church requires people to do. They do it because they are paying respect to their mother - not worship. they realize that it is only a symbol of her.
It is exactly the same thing when a wife kisses a picture of her husband who went off to war - or a mother kissing the picture of her child. They’re not worshipping either - they’re expressing love.
Boy - I shudder to think of the lack of loving expression in your family.
Your ignorant rants are getting really embarassing.
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Bengoshi
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Please explain the first verse Dokimas quoted before you just quote another passage, lest we make it appear that Scripture contradicts itself.
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Holly3278
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What I don’t understand is why some Protestants completely neglect Mary. Mary is a very important person who is most definitely in Heaven as one of the if not the most important saint ever. Plus, she’s the Mother of God and is co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix. So why some Protestants completely neglect Mary is just beyond me and quite frankly… it irritates me.
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Bengoshi
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You can start by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Catholicism by Fr. Richard McBrien. Then try reading Vatican II documents together with the writings of the early church fathers. There’s this one I jusyt bought recently, Question Time: 150 Questions and Answers on the Catholic Faith by Fr. John Flader. However, do read the works of the Reformers and other contemporary Christian theologians as well such as John Calvin, Jacobus Arminius, Louis Berkhof, Herman Bavinck, Paul Tillich, Charles Finney, Wayne Grudem, Cornelius Van Til, C.S. Lewis, John Frame, Norman Geisler, Ravi Zacharias, Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, Charles Stanley, James White, Loraine Boettner, Thomas Oden, Charles Ryrie, John MacArthur, etc.
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Good_Fella
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1 Corinthians 3:11 For no man can lay a*** foundation ***other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
**Foundation; themelios
1 Timothy 3:15 "…you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
- laid down as a foundation, the foundation (of a building, wall, city)
- metaphor. the foundations, beginnings, first principals
- of institution or system of truth **
***Support; hedraiōma
Support and foundation mean the same thing, so what’s your point? A foundation supports a structure. Christ established his Church on the foundation of St. Peter and the Apostles. It is the Holy Spirit who guides the Church in all truth and supports her against error through the Apostolic teaching authority.
- a stay, prop, support ***
I’m unsure about what you’re trying to tell me by citing 1 Corinthians. I’m aware that Jesus is “the cornerstone which the builders rejected”. But what does this have to do with Apostolic succession?
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2nd_Adam
Guest
All Christians that are united to Christ by faith are called vessels of mercy (Rom 9) in contrast of unbelievers and false professors of Christ to be called vessels of wrath. We are all vessels.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - Paul
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I think Protestants understand that salvation is of the Lord, and Jesus Christ is the sole redeemer of sinful mankind. Please let me know how Mary is you co-redeemer in regards to the bibilcal doctrine of redemption and atonement? Did Mary die for you so that you can be brought near to God? Are you able to approach the throne of grace with confidence because of the work of Christ alone?
Hebrews 4:16
Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
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elvisman
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And when you have an intelligent comment to make - please do so.
I have yet to read one from you.
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elvisman
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**And I already PROVED that those names mentioned were NOT the children of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. They were the children of the "other Mary" (John 19:25) standing near the cross - who is mentioned as being the “sister” (adelphe) of Mary. **
I also PROVED that the Greek word for sister or brothers can be (and ARE) used very liberally to include cousins and other kinsman.
So - I ask you again:
Can you please give me the names of these supposed other children of Mary, the mother of Jesus?
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elvisman
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I’ll give you this, my friend:
Your post is charitable and is greatly appreciated. I grow increasingly weary of the acrimonious anti-Catholic attacks that really are the last accepted form of bigotry in this world.
I would also agree with you that a lot of professed Catholics simply don’t know their faith. However, I’m not one of them. I make it a point to know my faith before defending it against anti-Catholics and sharing it with interested parties.
**As for this being just a Catholic problem - I think you’re mistaken. I can and have obliterated the arguments of Fundamentalists and Evangelicals by using their only source of truth and authority - the Bible. **
I have debated some of them who accept the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union of Jesus, and with the same breath they deny that Mary gave birth to a divine person.
That is siomply NOT a historic Christian belief and is in fact, heresy.
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Dokimas
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I agree with you if any protestant totally neglect Mary.
I think that God is saddened by anyone who would neglect the example Mary is to us all. I also think He is saddened by the teachings that elivates her to a position that is not hers: virgin all her life; coming from a virgin birth herself; to be prayed to to interceed for us; etc.
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CWBetts
Guest
It is not taught that she came form a virgin birth herself! Where do you get this stuff?
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