Protestants and Mary

[lil_flower_luv]

I think that God is saddened by anyone who would neglect the example Mary is to us all. I also think He is saddened by the teachings that elivates her to a position that is not hers: virgin all her life; coming from a virgin birth herself; to be prayed to to interceed for us; etc.

Mary did not come from a virgin birth, FYI. Look it up.

I highly doubt our Lord is saddened. In fact, He tells us to rejoice to be called His; rejoice to be able to call His Mother, our Mother.

 

[elvisman]

I agree with you if any protestant totally neglect Mary.​

I think that God is saddened by anyone who would neglect the example Mary is to us all. I also think He is saddened by the teachings that elivates her to a position that is not hers: virgin all her life; coming from a virgin birth herself; to be prayed to to interceed for us; etc.

The Church doesn’t teach this.**

 

[Dokimas]

I must say I was showing my ignorance. I obviously have not understood ‘Immaculate Conception’ until now. I’m sorry for my ignorance and false claim.

 

[Dokimas]

I will say I disagree with the idea Mary was conceived without original sin. There is no concrete Scriptural basis for that believe nor is it necessary for our atonement. Jesus is the only One that needed to be without sin.

 

[CWBetts]

I will say I disagree with the idea Mary was conceived without original sin. There is no concrete Scriptural basis for that believe nor is it necessary for our atonement. Jesus is the only One that needed to be without sin.

If you had the chance to make your own mother, wouldn’t you make her perfect?

 

[Dokimas]

If you had the chance to make your own mother, wouldn’t you make her perfect?

I’d make her with free will to choose to love me.​

What Jesus did for her was far better than making her perfect; He died for her sins.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I’d make her with free will to choose to love me.​

What Jesus did for her was far better than making her perfect; He died for her sins.

That’s good to know!
But you would also make her a perfect vessel; a vessel that would hold the Son of God - Jesus’ human form would not grow and survive in a womb stained by sin.

 

[rchapm77]

As a protestant I do not pray to mary, I don’t have the same beliefs about her that Roman Catholics do. But I do respect and admire her. I hope there is away catholics and protestants can be unified as Christ desires the church to be unified even if they don’t see eye to eye on Mary. St Paul admonished us to not be divided by disputable matters so much of what divides protestants and catholics seem to fall into the category of disputable matters, in my humble opion.

In Christ a protestant, (who loves and honors Mary)

 

[Dokimas]

That’s good to know!
But you would also make her a perfect vessel; a vessel that would hold the Son of God - Jesus’ human form would not grow and survive in a womb stained by sin.

A. I’m not God

B. God didn’t need her to be perfect. Jesus said only God is good; so Mary couldn’t be good unless she was God.

 

[CWBetts]

I’d make her with free will to choose to love me.​

What Jesus did for her was far better than making her perfect; He died for her sins.

I never said He didn’t save her! It just so happened that she was free from the stain of Original Sin! She is in a very exclusive club. Only three people were created without original sin: Mary, Adam, and Eve. And Mary did not live her sinless life of her own ability. It was by the Grace of God that she was kept from sin. We all recieve graces from God, but it was Mary alone who was “Full of Grace” According to Scriptures, Mary said that “All generations will call me blessed” I guess the evangelicals just didn’t get the memo.

 

[Luna_Lovegood]

guanaphore, thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully to my questions regarding the belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity. I think you are right that I don’t have a real understanding of the gift of celibacy.

It IS beautiful to think of Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit – and also as never being returned to common use. This would also mean that Joseph was indeed a good, kind, and giving man. A man who loved and listened to God. I’m not exactly sure yet what I believe on this issue, but am sure I will learn a tremendous amount as I keep working my way through this thread.

I sure hope I can catch up with you guys – you are a busy bunch!

 

[Bengoshi]

I’ll give you this, my friend:
Your post is charitable and is greatly appreciated. I grow increasingly weary of the acrimonious anti-Catholic attacks that really are the last accepted form of bigotry in this world.
I would also agree with you that a lot of professed Catholics simply don’t know their faith. However, I’m not one of them. I make it a point to know my faith before defending it against anti-Catholics and sharing it with interested parties.

As for this being just a Catholic problem - I think you’re mistaken. I can and have obliterated the arguments of Fundamentalists and Evangelicals by using their only source of truth and authority - the Bible.
I have debated some of them who accept the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union of Jesus, and with the same breath they deny that Mary gave birth to a divine person.
That is siomply NOT a historic Christian belief and is in fact, heresy.

Hi there! Thank you for your appreciation! Yes, there are also a number of Evangelicals–as I have noticed in this forum–who are also ignorant of some biblical doctrines. By the way, I do not reject Mary being the mother of God the Son. I just don’t see the need to pray to her or to any other dead saint when I can directly pray to God through Jesus. It just takes the same amount of time and effort anyway. As to asking a living person to pray for me or when I am asked to intercede for someone, Scripture supports that as taught by Jesus when He said that "“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven” (Matt. 18:19). Those who have died and have gone to heaven are already not on earth, so it is a different case. Besides, we can not even be sure if they can really hear our prayers, especially if we pray mentally, for only God is omniscient. Not even Satan, nor the demons, nor the angels can read our thoughts, only God. There was an argument posited by John Martignoni, a Catholic apologist. He said that the saints in heaven are able to hear our prayers because God tells them what we are praying for. I find that really absurd! Imagine the scenario: I am praying to a saint for him to pray to God for me. God hears my prayers and so He tell that saint to pray to Him for me and these are the things I want him to pray to God for me. Can you imagine that? Martignoni’s explanation didn’t help at all! In fact, it made it worse!

 

[Bengoshi]

I never said He didn’t save her! It just so happened that she was free from the stain of Original Sin! She is in a very exclusive club. Only three people were created without original sin: Mary, Adam, and Eve. And Mary did not live her sinless life of her own ability. It was by the Grace of God that she was kept from sin. We all recieve graces from God, but it was Mary alone who was “Full of Grace” According to Scriptures, Mary said that “All generations will call me blessed” I guess the evangelicals just didn’t get the memo.

Catholics attach a lot of meaning to the phrase “full of grace.” Does it necessarily mean that she is free of original sin? No. What is grace anyway? Grace is a gift. Moreover, other translations render the Greek word “kecharitomena” as highly favored, although I would not want to go into that complex discussion anymore because there is already another thread on that topic.

 

[CWBetts]

Catholics attach a lot of meaning to the phrase “full of grace.” Does it necessarily mean that she is free of original sin? No. What is grace anyway? Grace is a gift. Moreover, other translations render the Greek word “kecharitomena” as highly favored, although I would not want to go into that complex discussion anymore because there is already another thread on that topic.

“Highly favored” is an awful rendering of “kecharitomena” it means one who has been and will continue to be filled with grace on into the future. If it is insignificant as you seem to think, then why did an Angel of God greet her in such a way?

 

[Bengoshi]

“Highly favored” is an awful rendering of “kecharitomena” it means one who has been and will continue to be filled with grace on into the future. If it is insignificant as you seem to think, then why did an Angel of God greet her in such a way?

Full of grace in Greek is plaras charitos as used in John 1:14b pertaining to Jesus as He is the only sinless person in the world.

 

[CWBetts]

Full of grace in Greek is plaras charitos as used in John 1:14b pertaining to Jesus as He is the only sinless person in the world.

Mary was sinless as well. Even if not explicitly in Scripture, it does not violate Scripture, provided that you are competent at understanding contextual clues.

 

[Bengoshi]

Mary was sinless as well. Even if not explicitly in Scripture, it does not violate Scripture, provided that you are competent at understanding contextual clues.

There is no need for Mary to be sinless. Since Jesus humbled himself in taking the form of a man, even to the point of dying on a cross, then what would prevent him from inhabiting the womb of a sinful human being? Such a situation is part of the incarnation. To dogma of immaculate conception may have the effect of lessening Christ’s humanity. The Bible says that Jesus took the form of a servant, was tempted in every way that we are, and yet did not sin. He was 100% God and 100% man. Hence, there is absolutely no need for Mary to be sinless at all. The dogma of immaculate conception is just a Catholic invention with no scriptural support. It is a mere addition to established biblical doctrine.

 

[lost_wanderer_1]

WRONG - as usual, my angry, anti-Catholic friend.

One of the official titles of the pope is the Servant of the Servants of God. In short - he has not placed himself above - but LAST among the servants of God.

As for Bibles in Catholics Churches, we have the Missal, which is filled with the Scriptures. In a 3-year period, we read the Bible virtually from cover to cover.

Don’t come here spewing false accusations. If you really love the word of God - then practice what you preach and stop bearing false witness.

PS - The Bible also tells us that unless we eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood we have no life within us - and you ain’t doin’ it.

 

[lost_wanderer_1]

Reality is
People do bow down to statues
That is Pope John Paul the II by the way.

Heck I’ll bow down to any statue - as long as it is the image of Jesus Christ. When I do it, in my mind & heart I won’t say “praise to you almighty stone, or most powerful wood” but I’d say, “Thank you Jesus for loving me!” I think he’ll understand…

 

[CWBetts]

There is no need for Mary to be sinless. Since Jesus humbled himself in taking the form of a man, even to the point of dying on a cross, then what would prevent him from inhabiting the womb of a sinful human being? Such a situation is part of the incarnation. To dogma of immaculate conception may have the effect of lessening Christ’s humanity. The Bible says that Jesus took the form of a servant, was tempted in every way that we are, and yet did not sin. He was 100% God and 100% man. Hence, there is absolutely no need for Mary to be sinless at all. The dogma of immaculate conception is just a Catholic invention with no scriptural support. It is a mere addition to established biblical doctrine.

I am pretty sure the Early Fathers would disagree, as would the reformers that you have accepted as the founders of your religion. Yeah, thats right. Luther, Calvin, Wesley. They had no issues with Mary. The contempt for the the Mother of God is a more recent man-made invention.