Protestants and Mary

[tmac1956]

I didn’t say that the Roman Catholic church was born in 1054AD, I said that this [1054] is when it split from the true Early Church. You would know that if you took the time to read instead of drumming up your next attack on me. The seat of Peter was First among Equals until Rome decided to elevate it. The split was on, you changed, Constantinople didn’t.

Ok. So, if you really believe your statement above, then why aren’t you Eastern Orthodox? I mean, you are claiming that the RCC split from the “…true Early Church” in 1054… why wouldn’t you run to that original church since you know precisely which one it is?

 

[elvisman]

You do realize that the very God that you believe made Mary w/o the stain of is the same God that said all of sinned and fallen short; only God is incapable of not sinning. So either Mary is a goddess or she is a fallible human; this is what God has said. So do you believe what God has said or do you pick and chose what you want to believe? If so; what do you think God has said about that? Spiritual Food for thought.

Rick -
Do you even bother to understand the Scripture verses you try to use as ammunition against the Catholic Church? I don’t think you do.

Romans 3:10, 23 explicitly states: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”
St. Paul was using inclusive language. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the carnival last year. He is referring to the mass of mankind but God can and does make exceptions for anybody he wishes.

I really suggest you read the Scriptures and pray for understanding. . .

 

[elvisman]

Ok. So, if you really believe your statement above, then why aren’t you Eastern Orthodox? I mean, you are claiming that the RCC split from the “…true Early Church” in 1054… why wouldn’t you run to that original church since you know precisely which one it is?

**Don’t expect an answer to this.

---

Justy has dodged this question on 3 posts and has accused me of being uncharitable, hateful and angry for asking it.

 

[CWBetts]

Rick -
Do you even bother to understand the Scripture verses you try to use as ammunition against the Catholic Church? I don’t think you do.

Romans 3:10, 23 explicitly states: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”
St. Paul was using inclusive language. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the carnival last year. He is referring to the mass of mankind but God can and does make exceptions for anybody he wishes.

I really suggest you read the Scriptures and pray for understanding. . .

Thank you…I have repeated this answer so many times I feel like typing it up in a word document and doing a copy/past every time it gets brought up!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Thank you…I have repeated this answer so many times I feel like typing it up in a word document and doing a copy/past every time it gets brought up!

I second that!!

 

[RickHolland]

You have already been shown and it has already been explained to you many times that we do not worship Mary or any of the other saints in Heaven. What you are doing now is bearing false witness - and that is a direct violation against God and his Church. In short - you have become a liar - and if that’s the* best* you can do - I feel sorry for you.

COLOR]. This is why it is written about the names being in the Lamb’s Book of Life. You CAN - as many DO - fall away.
Matthew 24:10-13 And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences.

Philippians 3:11-14 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 1:18-19 Hebrews 6:4-6For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Glad to see you quote some scripture; regardless of how out of context it actually and really is, but at least your trying and for that I am very grateful.

For example, if you say Hebrews 6 is speaking to believers, then when they fall away it is IMPOSSIBLE to bring them to repetance again and you have created a new theology, which would be “lose it and your done”; the only other place that word, IMPOSSIBLE" is used is in reference to God not being able to lie. On the other hand, if you say it is speaking to unbelievers, then you have just contraditcted your point, which of course is what you did.

You will never find a reference to “believers”, the “called”, the “saved”, the “elect”, as “falling away”; it always refers to those like the first 3 soils in the parable of the sower; where they are exposed to varying degress of Truth and never had the right heart and walked away in unbelief; unless you believe the parable is about believers who have fallen away, which again would be new theology.

Now let’s see, you called me a liar, that part is okay because between us; God knows who is faithful to His word and who is not. So I count your insult as joy!

Let’s see what your Chruch actually says, then you can take it up with the magisterium…fair enough?
There are several degrees of this worship:

* if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme **worship**, or **worship **of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a **worship** of latria. This sovereign **worship** is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
* ***When **worship ***is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate **worship** **dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the **worship** of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
* As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely ***supereminent rank among the saints:thumbsup:***, the **worship** paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles ***it will readily be understood ***that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry:thumbsup:,for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which **unites it with the person who is **adored or venerated; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage — as being a symbol which reminds us of that person (see Vacant, Diet de théol. cath., s.v. Adoration, and authors cited in bibliography; also ADORATION; IDOLATRY; IMAGES; DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY).
newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm Just as there are “degrees of worship”; likewise there are “degrees of hell”.

 

[RickHolland]

Clarify this sentence** and I’ll be able to answer you better.
***Not ***really sure what you mean here.

Where does Scripture support any idea of having a earthly-dead-saint or, not of, angel to interceed for us before God?
I say earthly dead saint so you don’t come back with the semantics; there are no dead saints.

 

[elvisman]

Glad to see you quote some scripture; regardless of how out of context it actually and really is, but at least your trying and for that I am very grateful.

For example, if you say Hebrews 6 is speaking to believers, then when they fall away it is IMPOSSIBLE to bring them to repetance again and you have created a new theology, which would be “lose it and your done”; the only other place that word, IMPOSSIBLE" is used is in reference to God not being able to lie. On the other hand, if you say it is speaking to unbelievers, then you have just contraditcted your point, which of course is what you did.

You will never find a reference to “believers”, the “called”, the “saved”, the “elect”, as “falling away”; it always refers to those like the first 3 soils in the parable of the sower; where they are exposed to varying degress of Truth and never had the right heart and walked away in unbelief; unless you believe the parable is about believers who have fallen away, which again would be new theology.

Again - you read but you refuse to understand. I’m beginning to think that it’s not refusal but an inability to understand.

In Hebrews, Paul is speaking of believers who fall away and refuse to turn around. These are the ones who live out the rest of their live and die in final impenitence.
**Get it?

Now let’s see, you called me a liar, that part is okay because between us; God knows who is faithful to His word and who is not. So I count your insult as joy!

Let’s see what your Chruch actually says, then you can take it up with the magisterium…fair enough?
There are several degrees of this worship:

• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or **worship **of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• ***When **worship *****is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints:thumbsup:, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles ***it will readily be understood ***that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry:thumbsup:,for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which **unites it with the person who is **adored or venerated; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage — as being a symbol which reminds us of that person (see Vacant, Diet de théol. cath., s.v. Adoration, and authors cited in bibliography; also ADORATION; IDOLATRY; IMAGES; DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY).
newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm Just as there are “degrees of worship”; likewise there are “degrees of hell”.

And you’re doing nothing here but playing word games - semantics.

Whereas the word, “worship” can be used more loosely, if applied to all of us, we would all be guilty of some form of the word which has several meanings, including:
1. The honor given to a person of importance — (such as magistrates and some mayors)
2. Reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; an act of expressing such reverence
3. A form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4. Extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
(Webster’s 11th collegiate Dictionary)

When a person kisses a picture of a loved one, they are guilty of “worship” in this sense. However, anybody using reason would understand that they do* not* worship them as gods.

Veneration As for the charge of worshipping Mary, the anti-Catholic is guilty of bearing false witness.
Dulia is theological term signifying the honor paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone. Hyperdulia is the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
We adore and worship God alone, whereas, we give honor to the great saints of the past and give special honor to Mary, the vessel of Christ.

 

[elvisman]

Where does Scripture support any idea of having a earthly-dead-saint or, not of, angel to interceed for us before God?
I say earthly dead saint so you don’t come back with the semantics; there are no dead saints.

Easy:
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 speaks very explicitly about their intercession on our behalf. before God.

PS - I have already posted this about FIVE times on this thread but you guys refuse to answer it.

 

[RickHolland]

Because you do not choose to look further for your sources, you cannot understand the Blessed Mother’s standing in the Church. How is it possible to believe God sent His Son to this world to save us from our sins, if we do not understand how He got here? Mary was the vessel God used to come here. Like the moon reflects the sun’s rays, Mary is the reflection of God’s Grace.

Everyone understands that Mary gave birth to Jesus. Guess what? It stops there. Mary is no more a saint than any of the other saints. God says in the OT there is a woman is the “most blessed among all women”; did you know that?

The question is: do you pick and choose what you believe?
Mary is not a goddess. She is not a fallible human being. Understand you must be forgetting how great God is if you bring Mary to a low standing. And understand you do not know Catholic teaching if you think we elevate her to a goddess.

If she is NOT a fallible human being, then she is just like Jesus, whom did not need a savior because He was infallible; therefore you make both Mary and God liars.

Yes, I carefully choose Who and what I believe; I believe what God has already said. It is not me that you are disagreeing with; it is the Word of God that you disagree with in favor of something else; it is the story of mankind. Many f us have shown you what God has said and what Mary has said, but you refuse to believe; that is your choice and you have made it.

 

[RickHolland]

Rick -
Do you even bother to understand the Scripture verses you try to use as ammunition against the Catholic Church? I don’t think you do.

Romans 3:10, 23 explicitly states: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.

In this passage, St. Paul is actually quoting Psalm 14, where it says, "The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God. They are corrupt…there is none that does good.’” Later in the same Psalm, we hear that “God is present in the company of the “righteous.”
St. Paul was using inclusive language. This would be similar to somebody saying that “everybody in town” came to the carnival last year. He is referring to the mass of mankind but God can and does make exceptions for anybody he wishes.

I really suggest you read the Scriptures and pray for understanding. . .

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Re 1:16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

Re 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:

I believe it is His ammo; not mine.

Show me an exception to anyone who was saved apart from faith? If God were to do what you claim He could do; then this would mean that God changes, which would make God a liar, which His word says that it is impossible for God to lie. Which by the way, all the claims you have made about Mary does exactly that.

So show me the exception to His rule and authority?

Another cigar :hey_bud: and a cup of coffee :coffeeread: while I patiently wait.

On your other post where you mentioned about the age of accountability, mentally challenged and et al; Paul is speaking to those that have already obtained that age or has the mental capacity to accept or reject; that argument you tried to make is grasping at the straw-man. It is your Church teaching that told parents there infants, who were not following the Church law on infant baptism, were in “Limbo” for eternity, which is another doctrine not found in Scripture. Like purgatory, Limbo is made to be a place or state that isn’t that bad. Imagine how those parents must have been grieved by that; sad very sad.

 

[RickHolland]

Thank you…I have repeated this answer so many times I feel like typing it up in a word document and doing a copy/past every time it gets brought up!

You should just copy and paste your answer into a word document; makes it a lot easier to repeat yourself. I have recently started doing this myself. Then all you have to do is tweak it a little for the specifi post.

 

[guanophore]

What I don’t understand is why some Protestants completely neglect Mary. Mary is a very important person who is most definitely in Heaven as one of the if not the most important saint ever. Plus, she’s the Mother of God and is co-mediatrix and co-redemptrix. So why some Protestants completely neglect Mary is just beyond me and quite frankly… it irritates me.

It is interesting. I have found that the ones who are the worst are those that have had a neglectful or abusive experience at the hands of a natural mother. Just as some people who have had the same with a natural father have difficulty relating to the Father, but are comfortable with Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

I think Protestants understand that salvation is of the Lord, and Jesus Christ is the sole redeemer of sinful mankind. Please let me know how Mary is you co-redeemer in regards to the bibilcal doctrine of redemption and atonement? Did Mary die for you so that you can be brought near to God? Are you able to approach the throne of grace with confidence because of the work of Christ alone?

Hebrews 4:16

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The way you frame your questions makes it clear that they emanate from theological errors.

The doctrine of atonement taught by the apostles is not “biblical” in the sense that you use the word. The Reformers, and all of their modern offspring, attempt to extrapolate doctrine out of the Scritpures. This is a method foreign to the Apostles, who taught through the paradosis. Scripture is indeed profitable in this task, but the doctrine is to be received from one to whom it was entrusted.

Also, the scripture you quoted does not say “Christ alone”. There is nothing in scripture that indicates we are to interact with “Christ alone”. He is always accompanied by those who are devoted to Him, and He is generous in sharing His priestly ministry to those whom He has called.

The fact that He allows His people to participate in the ministry of reconciling the world to Himself does not detract from the fact that He is our sole mediator.

 

[guanophore]

And I already PROVED that those names mentioned were NOT the children of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. They were the children of the "other Mary" (John 19:25) standing near the cross - who is mentioned as being the “sister” (adelphe) of Mary.

I also PROVED that the Greek word for sister or brothers can be (and ARE) used very liberally to include cousins and other kinsman.

So - I ask you again:
Can you please give me the names of these supposed other children of Mary, the mother of Jesus?

I don’t think that Rick can afford to look at what you posted, Elvis.

If he did, and were to see that they are the children of another Mary, it would blow a lot of his argument out of the water.

The custom of referring to anyone in the clan too close to marry as “brother” and “sister” is also lost on many of these folks, who do not seem to understand the cultural context of tribal life.

In my area of the country (four corners) the Native peoples still use this type of language. Anyone in their clan that is not elibilble for marriage is a brother or sister (cousins, half sibs etc) and the older men and women “aunt” “uncle” “grandfather” etc. This is a modern preservation of the tribal society, the nuances of which are lost in modern day America.

 

[guanophore]

• I also think He is saddened by the teachings that elivates her to a position that is not hers: virgin all her life; coming from a virgin birth herself; to be prayed to to interceed for us; etc.

It is not possible to elevate Mary more than God has already done.

The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary’s birth came from a virgin. On the contrary, she was conceived as an answer to the prayers of Joakim and Anna, and resulted from the normal marital embrace.

We are all called to intercede for one another. If you think this gift does not extend beyond the grave, then you have a defieinct understanding of salvation, and the communion of saints.

 

[RickHolland]

Again - you read but you refuse to understand. I’m beginning to think that it’s not refusal but an inability to understand.

Don’t associate me with you short-comings. You can’t even recognize the Lord had brothers; how will you understand the weighter things; like salvation?

In Hebrews, Paul is speaking of believers who fall away and refuse to turn around. These are the ones who live out the rest of their live and die in final impenitence.
***Get ***it?

I love how you just make it up as you go; a good sign that God’s two-edged sword is penetrating; hopefully your heart. If you would have said this is someone who sinned against the Holy Spirit or an apostate, then you would have stood on some ground, but rather than admitting you just don’t know, you decided to make it up. God commands people to rightly divide His word and He takes it very serious; you don’t seem to take it very serious as noted by your “make it up as you go” theology.

Whereas the word, “worship” can be used more loosely, if applied to all of us, we would all be guilty of some form of the word which has several meanings, including:
1. The honor given to a person of importance — (such as magistrates and some mayors)
2. Reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; an act of expressing such reverence
3. A form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4. Extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem
(Webster’s 11th collegiate Dictionary) Anyone can rationalize and explain away even what you own Church defines as worship and call it varying degrees, but it is not me you need to convince of your argument; it is God who judges what constitutes idolatry and what does not. If your Church is truly endowed by the Holy Spirit and is not subject to the consequences of fallibility, then you have no worries…right?

When a person kisses a picture of a loved one, they are guilty of “worship

” in this sense. However, anybody using reason would understand that they do* not* worship them as gods. Grasping at more straw? Don’t confuse the carnal with the spiritual like the poor folks in John 6 that walked away in unbelief partly because they took Him literally when He actually explained what He meant by what He had said; for example John 6:63 demonstrates.

Veneration As for the charge of worshiping

Mary, the anti-Catholic is guilty of bearing false witness.
Dulia is theological term signifying the honor paid to the saints, while latria means worship given to God alone. Hyperdulia is the veneration offered to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
We adore and worship God alone, whereas, we give honor to the great saints of the past and give special honor to Mary, the vessel of Christ.

I thought you might find this interesting as I was searching for uses of dulia and latria.
Matt. 6 - If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

In both cases the word “douleuō” is used. Don’t focus on the “wealth” it is the “serve” that is in question. What I did notice is that the difference between the use of the two, generally is “rank, as in office or capacity” of the person with the exception I listed above. I did not look at all instances, but there is a definitive pattern. This helps me understand where the Catholic theologians make the differentiations, but nontheless it is a form of worship as I have clearly demonstrated form Catholic sources and it still remains that we do not worship (venerate) Mary or any other dead-on-earth saint.

 

[guanophore]

I will say I disagree with the idea Mary was conceived without original sin. There is no concrete Scriptural basis for that believe nor is it necessary for our atonement. Jesus is the only One that needed to be without sin.

Who died, and left you in charge of what was needed for our atonement? If God saw fit to prepare a vessel for Himself through whom He wished to come into the world, to atone for the sins of man, who are you to say this is not “necessary”? Are you saying that God did things that were not necessary.

 

[guanophore]

I’d make her with free will to choose to love me.​

What Jesus did for her was far better than making her perfect; He died for her sins.

Jesus did all these things for Mary.

Was there something that made you think that Mary did not have free will to choose?

Did you think we believed that Jesus did not die for her sin?

 

[guanophore]

A. I’m not God

Why do you pontificate about doctrine as if you are?

B. God didn't need her to be perfect.  Jesus said only God is good; so Mary couldn't be good unless she was God.

This is a very unscriptural statement. I am surprised to hear this coming from someone who claimes to be a bible christian.

God made creation,and called it “good”. Creation is not God. God made humans, and called them 'very good".

Mary is the new Eve, who did what the first Eve did not - obey God’s commandments. This is why Jesus called her “woman” (mother of all living) and why He held her up as an example of obedience.