Protestants and Mary

[guanophore]

guanaphore, thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully to my questions regarding the belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity. I think you are right that I don’t have a real understanding of the gift of celibacy.

It IS beautiful to think of Mary as the spouse of the Holy Spirit – and also as never being returned to common use. This would also mean that Joseph was indeed a good, kind, and giving man. A man who loved and listened to God. I’m not exactly sure yet what I believe on this issue, but am sure I will learn a tremendous amount as I keep working my way through this thread.

I sure hope I can catch up with you guys – you are a busy bunch!

It is an honor to have such an open minded, open hearted person participating. Yes, this is a very fast moving thread. I recommend the library here on the topic of Mary also.

Don’t forget to ask Jesus what kind of relationship He wants you to have with His Mother.

 

[guanophore]

By the way, I do not reject Mary being the mother of God the Son. I just don’t see the need to pray to her or to any other dead saint when I can directly pray to God through Jesus.

This may come as a shock to you, Bengoshi, but none of the saints are dead. Those who die in the Lord are “alive forevermore”.

Does this attitude mean that you never ask anyone to pray for you, because you “dont’ see the need”?

It just takes the same amount of time and effort anyway. As to asking a living person to pray for me or when I am asked to intercede for someone, Scripture supports that as taught by Jesus when He said that "“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven” (Matt. 18:19). Those who have died and have gone to heaven are already not on earth, so it is a different case.

Certainly we need to gather and pray one for another on earth, but to suggest that those who have gone on before us are no longer members of His One Body is preposterous.

Scripture tells us that “the effectual fervent prayer of the righteous has great power in it’s effects”. There are none more righteous than those whose faith has been forever perfected by His grace. They can no longer fall, as He holds them.

Besides, we can not even be sure if they can really hear our prayers, especially if we pray mentally, for only God is omniscient. Not even Satan, nor the demons, nor the angels can read our thoughts, only God.

They can hear whatever God wants them to hear. Do you think that Moses and Elijah could “hear” Jesus?

Could Samuel “hear” Saul?

There was an argument posited by John Martignoni, a Catholic apologist. He said that the saints in heaven are able to hear our prayers because God tells them what we are praying for. I find that really absurd! Imagine the scenario: I am praying to a saint for him to pray to God for me. God hears my prayers and so He tell that saint to pray to Him for me and these are the things I want him to pray to God for me. Can you imagine that? Martignoni’s explanation didn’t help at all! In fact, it made it worse!

LOL. I see you are suffering from a deficient concept of the Body of christ. No, I don’t have to “imagine” this. It is a reality for us.

 

[elvisman]

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Re 1:16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

Re 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:

I believe it is His ammo; not mine.

What on EARTH does this have to do with my rebuttal to your argument about Romans 3:10, 23?? I told you that no Protestant has been able to intelligently answer my rebuttal to this passage.
Stay focused, pal.

Show me an exception to anyone who was saved apart from faith? If God were to do what you claim He could do; then this would mean that God changes, which would make God a liar, which His word says that it is impossible for God to lie. Which by the way, all the claims you have made about Mary does exactly that.

So show me the exception to His rule and authority?

Another cigar :hey_bud: and a cup of coffee :coffeeread: while I patiently wait.

Mary wasn’t saved apart from faith. It was because of her faith. Jesus’ finished work on the cross was applied to her just like the rest of us.
Mary was chosen above ALL of the wome in history to be the Mother of God.
On your other post where you mentioned about the age of accountability, mentally challenged and et al; Paul is speaking to those that have already obtained that age or has the mental capacity to accept or reject; that argument you tried to make is grasping at the straw-man. It is your Church teaching that told parents there infants, who were not following the Church law on infant baptism, were in “Limbo” for eternity, which is another doctrine not found in Scripture. Like purgatory, Limbo is made to be a place or state that isn’t that bad. Imagine how those parents must have been grieved by that; sad very sad.
**Show me WHERE paul is speaking ONLY to those of this age of accountability you speak of. **
What about Jesus? Was he speaking to him? Who decides this “age of accountability”? YOU? What age is it?

 

[elvisman]

I don’t think that Rick can afford to look at what you posted, Elvis.

If he did, and were to see that they are the children of another Mary, it would blow a lot of his argument out of the water.

The custom of referring to anyone in the clan too close to marry as “brother” and “sister” is also lost on many of these folks, who do not seem to understand the cultural context of tribal life.

In my area of the country (four corners) the Native peoples still use this type of language. Anyone in their clan that is not elibilble for marriage is a brother or sister (cousins, half sibs etc) and the older men and women “aunt” “uncle” “grandfather” etc. This is a modern preservation of the tribal society, the nuances of which are lost in modern day America.

 

[elvisman]

Don’t associate me with you short-comings. You can’t even recognize the Lord had brothers; how will you understand the weighter things; like salvation?

NONE of you has been able to name these uterine brothers. Not ONE of you.
Don’t bother mentioning James or Joses - that has been proven wrong on about 12 posts already. they were the sons of the "other Mary" at the cross and her husband, Clopas.

I love how you just make it up as you go; a good sign that God’s two-edged sword is penetrating; hopefully your heart. If you would have said this is someone who sinned against the Holy Spirit or an apostate, then you would have stood on some ground, but rather than admitting you just don’t know, you decided to make it up. God commands people to rightly divide His word and He takes it very serious; you don’t seem to take it very serious as noted by your “make it up as you go” theology.

Anyone can rationalize and explain away even what you own Church defines as worship and call it varying degrees, but it is not me you need to convince of your argument; it is God who judges what constitutes idolatry and what does not. If your Church is truly endowed by the Holy Spirit and is not subject to the consequences of fallibility, then you have no worries…right?
Grasping at more straw? Don’t confuse the carnal with the spiritual like the poor folks in John 6 that walked away in unbelief partly because they took Him literally when He actually explained what He meant by what He had said; for example John 6:63 demonstrates.

I thought you might find this interesting as I was searching for uses of dulia and latria.
Matt. 6 - If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

In both cases the word “douleuō” is used. Don’t focus on the “wealth” it is the “serve” that is in question. What I did notice is that the difference between the use of the two, generally is “rank, as in office or capacity” of the person with the exception I listed above. I did not look at all instances, but there is a definitive pattern. This helps me understand where the Catholic theologians make the differentiations, but nontheless it is a form of worship as I have clearly demonstrated form Catholic sources and it still remains that we do not worship (venerate) Mary or any other dead-on-earth saint.

Like I said before - you’re playing semantic games here. Not woth anybody’s time until you’re ready to have a serious conversation about it. Besides - nobody is serving wealth. We are called upon to serve each other:
John 13:14-15, Romans 12:10, 14:19,15:7, Galatians 6:2, I Peter 4:9.

Maybe I was wrong about you. Maybe you aren’t that bright.
Oh, well - I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[elvisman]

Thank you…I have repeated this answer so many times I feel like typing it up in a word document and doing a copy/past every time it gets brought up!

What do you think I did?
Feel free to do the same!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Everyone understands that Mary gave birth to Jesus. Guess what? It stops there. Mary is no more a saint than any of the other saints. God says in the OT there is a woman is the “most blessed among all women”; did you know that?

It does not stop there, as much as you want it to.

How do you interpret the book of revelation? Please enlighten me. How do you interpret: “And a great sign appeared in heaven:
A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” Revelation 12:1

Something else to digest:
“Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee” are the words of Gabriel. These words indicate that Mary was full of grace BEFORE Jesus was in her womb. And no one can be full of grace and have any room left over for sin; otherwise she wouldn’t be “full” of grace.

Yes, I carefully choose Who and what I believe; I believe what God has already said. It is not me that you are disagreeing with; it is the Word of God that you disagree with in favor of something else; it is the story of mankind. Many f us have shown you what God has said and what Mary has said, but you refuse to believe; that is your choice and you have made it.

And now we can determine whether it was a reformation or a revolt that happened so many years ago.
Will this ever end?

 

[Dokimas]

Who died, and left you in charge of what was needed for our atonement? If God saw fit to prepare a vessel for Himself through whom He wished to come into the world, to atone for the sins of man, who are you to say this is not “necessary”? Are you saying that God did things that were not necessary.

Maybe I worded what I said poorly. God can do what He likes as long as He dosn’t contradict Himself. I see know Biblical evidence to support what you say about Mary as being a perfect vessel for the reasons you and others have posted.​

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Maybe I worded what I said poorly. God can do what He likes as long as He dosn’t contradict Himself. I see know Biblical evidence to support what you say about Mary as being a perfect vessel for the reasons you and others have posted.​

(Used this before, but: )

“Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee” are the words of Gabriel. These words indicate that Mary was full of grace BEFORE Jesus was in her womb. And no one can be full of grace and have any room left over for sin; otherwise she wouldn’t be “full” of grace.

 

[Dokimas]

Why do you pontificate about doctrine as if you are?
Is that what happens when any one of us reads God’s word, meditates upon it and then thinks what it means to us? God did give us a brain to ‘pontificate’ with, did He not?

This is a very unscriptural statement. I am surprised to hear this coming from someone who claimes to be a bible christian.

 

[elvisman]

Is that what happens when any one of us reads God’s word, meditates upon it and then thinks what it means to us? God did give us a brain to ‘pontificate’ with, did He not?

Mt 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Mr 10:18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Lu 18:19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.​

Where does the Bible say Mary is the new Eve? You’ve accused me of not being correct Biblically and I’ve shown you the verses in which it is recorded what Jesus said about anyone being called ‘good’. Now please show us where Mary is called the New Eve.

 

[humble_maid]

As for Mary being the New Eve:

In John’s Gospel, Jesus never refers to his mother as “mother” (John 2:4, 19:26). Whenever he addresses his mother, he calls her “woman”. The anti-Catholic will point to this as proof that there was nothing special about Mary or that Jesus didn’t hold her in very high regard. This couldn’t be further from the truth. This correlates directly to the Woman in Gen. 3:15 and in Rev. 12.

Jesus defeats death on Calvary (Skull place) and fulfills the prophecy in Gen. 3:15 about the offspring of the woman. Mary is present at the foot of the cross while this is happening, and what does Jesus call her in John 19:26? He calls her “WOMAN”, because the prophecy about the head of the serpent being crushed in Genesis is taking place on Calvary.**

**Just as the Woman, Eve was “the mother of all the living” (Gen 3:20), it makes sense that the Scriptures point to Mary becoming “the mother of all living in Christ”. **

Thank you for clarifying this point elvisman. I love the Blessed Mother and I am sure that the Lord loves her as well and has given her the appropriate honour in Heaven and over all the Earth. She teaches how to love and obey her Son who leads us to the Father. One example is the wedding feast at Cana;
John 2:3-5
3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? My hour is not yet come. What is that to me, etc… These words of our Saviour, spoken to his mother, have been understood by some commentators as harsh, they not considering the next following verse: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye, which plainly shows that his mother knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request he wrought it; besides the manner of speaking the words as to the tone, and the countenance shown at the same time, which could only be known to those who were present, or from what had followed: for words indicating anger in one tone of voice, would be understood quite the reverse in another. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.(this is referring to all believers)

If mankind can honour their mothers by appropriating a day in the calendar for her then how much more should we honour the mother of our Lord.
Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (for all eternity)

 

[onenow1]

Hi, I was just wondering why our brothers, and sisters in Christ, even bother to put Mary in the nativity scene, could this be an undestanding that Mary indeed was necessary,and guess what for about 30 years give or take. Also does Mary cease being the Mother of God after His crucifixion and ascension ? Maybe something to ponder ?

Peace and God Bless
onenow1:

 

[Dokimas]

Jesus did all these things for Mary.

Was there something that made you think that Mary did not have free will to choose?

Did you think we believed that Jesus did not die for her sin?

If she was sinless then how could He die for something she did not do?​

Did she have a sin nature according to the CC?

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas;5788262:

**It seems that you don’t **

understand when Jesus is using hyperbole to get his piont across. Would you not say that Jesus the Son is Good. Of COURSE he is.
Jesus is God, so of course He was not referring to Himself. That’s one of the things that was so interesting about what He said.

 

[Good_Fella]

If she was sinless then how could He die for something she did not do?​

Did she have a sin nature according to the CC?

Mary was redeemed by being preserved free from the stain of original sin at the first instant of her conception in anticipation of the merits of her divine Son, so that she would be a worthy mother of his. Her redemption was preservative, while ours is curative so to speak. We aren’t culpable for the personal sins of our original parents. Original sin isn’t an act on our part as are mortal and venial sins. So God’s justice isn’t denied by the Immaculate Conception. Further, Mary never commited any personal sins which required expiation.

Pax Christu

 

[RickHolland]

Easy:
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 speaks very explicitly about their intercession on our behalf. before God.

PS - I have already posted this about FIVE times on this thread but you guys refuse to answer it.

In regards to Revelation 5:8 How exactly do you derive an intercession? Maybe no one has responded to your satisfaction or because it makes no sense.

The bowls and the incense represent the prayers of all the saints through all the ages that the promised redemption might come.
Luke 1:8 (regarding Zacharias) Now it happened {that} while ***he was performing his priestly service before God ***in the {appointed} order of his division, 9 according to the custom of the priestly office, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And ***the whole multitude of the people were in prayer outside at the hour of the incense offering. ***

Multiply that scene of people offering prayers TO GOD by hundreds or thousands of years and this is the picture you see represented by the incense. Prayers offered to God by the people; not any intercessor by saints petitioning for those on earth to God as you have implied.

Revelation 8 is the same principle, but a little more detailed because there is angel acting as an OT priest and the saints in heaven are adding to the prayers from previous; praying for Satan to be defeated, but this has to do with the timing, most of the seals have been open and all that has been prophesied is about to reach a climax.

Is this person accurate concerning incense at the Mass?
Father William Saunders
Why do priests use incense at Mass? Where does it come from?—A reader in Alexandria

The use of incense in the ancient world was common, especially in religious rites where it was used to keep demons away. Herodotus, the Greek historian, recorded that it was popular among the Assyrians, Babylonians and Egyptians. In Judaism, incense was included in the thanksgiving offerings of oil, rain, fruits, wine (cf. Numbers 7:13-17). The Lord instructed Moses to build a golden altar for the burning of incense (cf. Exodus 30:1-10), which was placed in front of the veil to the entrance of the meeting tent where the ark of the covenant was kept.

We do not know exactly when the use of incense was introduced into our Mass or other liturgical rites. At the time of the early Church, the Jews continued to use incense in their own Temple rituals, so it would be safe to conclude that the Christians would have adapted its usage for their own rituals…The purpose of incensing and the symbolic value of the smoke is that of purification and sanctification. For example, in the Eastern Rites at the beginning of Mass, the altar and sanctuary area were incensed while Psalm 50, the “Miserere,” was chanted invoking the mercy of God. The smoke symbolizes the prayers of the faithful drifting up to heaven: Sounds like they are imitating the OT Levitical-style ritual.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INCENSE.htm

 

[RickHolland]

The way you frame your questions makes it clear that they emanate from theological errors.

The doctrine of atonement taught by the apostles is not “biblical” in the sense that you use the word. The Reformers, and all of their modern offspring, attempt to extrapolate doctrine out of the Scritpures. This is a method foreign to the Apostles, who taught through the paradosis. Scripture is indeed profitable in this task, but the doctrine is to be received from one to whom it was entrusted.

Also, the scripture you quoted does not say “Christ alone”. There is nothing in scripture that indicates we are to interact with “Christ alone”. He is always accompanied by those who are devoted to Him, and He is generous in sharing His priestly ministry to those whom He has called.

The fact that He allows His people to participate in the ministry of reconciling the world to Himself does not detract from the fact that He is our sole mediator.

:banghead::banghead::knight1:

I pray for your soul; your spiritual condition is much worse than I thought…Lord have mercy.

 

[CWBetts]

:banghead::banghead::knight1:

I pray for your soul; your spiritual condition is much worse than I thought…Lord have mercy.

It is the sin of Lucifer to make yourself God. Only God can tell the condition of another’s soul. You can disagree with Catholic orthodoxy, but to claim you know our final destination is beyond arrogant.

 

[RickHolland]

I don’t think that Rick can afford to look at what you posted, Elvis.

If he did, and were to see that they are the children of another Mary, it would blow a lot of his argument out of the water.

The custom of referring to anyone in the clan too close to marry as “brother” and “sister” is also lost on many of these folks, who do not seem to understand the cultural context of tribal life.

In my area of the country (four corners) the Native peoples still use this type of language. Anyone in their clan that is not elibilble for marriage is a brother or sister (cousins, half sibs etc) and the older men and women “aunt” “uncle” “grandfather” etc. This is a modern preservation of the tribal society, the nuances of which are lost in modern day America.

You are a little late; I have already rebuked and proven there were at least 3 James; one being the Lords brother, the other two part of the 12. You know what they say; misery loves company; keep patting yourselves on the back as you happily reject the word of God.