Protestants and Mary

[RickHolland]

It is not possible to elevate Mary more than God has already done.

The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary’s birth came from a virgin. On the contrary, she was conceived as an answer to the prayers of Joakim and Anna, and resulted from the normal marital embrace.

We are all called to intercede for one another. If you think this gift does not extend beyond the grave, then you have a defieinct understanding of salvation, and the communion of saints.

You made her out to be a goddess; much higher than God…LOL

 

[CWBetts]

You are a little late; I have already rebuked and proven there were at least 3 James; one being the Lords brother, the other two part of the 12. You know what they say; misery loves company; keep patting yourselves on the back as you happily reject the word of God.

We don’t reject the Word of God. We fully accept ti. We also understand that the Word of God is not primarily written. It is primarily incarnate. This cannot be stressed enough. The Word of God is Jesus Himself. Jesus cannot be contained in a book! The Bible that we all cherish is not the end of the Christian Faith. It is merely the beginning. To say otherwise denies the Scriptures you claim to love.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The way you frame your questions makes it clear that they emanate from theological errors.

The doctrine of atonement taught by the apostles is not “biblical” in the sense that you use the word. The Reformers, and all of their modern offspring, attempt to extrapolate doctrine out of the Scritpures. This is a method foreign to the Apostles, who taught through the paradosis. Scripture is indeed profitable in this task, but the doctrine is to be received from one to whom it was entrusted.

Also, the scripture you quoted does not say “Christ alone”. There is nothing in scripture that indicates we are to interact with “Christ alone”. He is always accompanied by those who are devoted to Him, and He is generous in sharing His priestly ministry to those whom He has called.

The fact that He allows His people to participate in the ministry of reconciling the world to Himself does not detract from the fact that He is our sole mediator.

That does not answer the question if you consider Mary to be your co-redeemer. I know Catholics are quite divided over this future potential dogma. BTW… I notice you are not willing to answer direct questions to you, and avoid them with unrelated propaganda. It’s not a very honest way to debate and discuss things.

 

[RickHolland]

It is the sin of Lucifer to make yourself God. Only God can tell the condition of another’s soul. You can disagree with Catholic orthodoxy, but to claim you know our final destination is beyond arrogant.

Do you know the difference bewteen discernment and condemnation? One we are called to do, the other is soley God’s domain. I know where I stand before God and Guanaphore spiritual condition is very easily discernable in light of what he has said he believes. I do not wnt him on the path I see him on; I know what is potentially at stake. Do you care that much for him? I do.

 

[RickHolland]

We don’t reject the Word of God. We fully accept ti. We also understand that the Word of God is not primarily written. It is primarily incarnate. This cannot be stressed enough. The Word of God is Jesus Himself . Jesus cannot be contained in a book! The Bible that we all cherish is not the end of the Christian Faith. It is merely the beginning. To say otherwise denies the Scriptures you claim to love.

Prove what you just said 9above in blue) and I will listen. If it is merely the beginning, then when will you start?

 

[rchapm77]

(Used this before, but: )

“Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee” are the words of Gabriel. These words indicate that Mary was full of grace BEFORE Jesus was in her womb. And no one can be full of grace and have any room left over for sin; otherwise she wouldn’t be “full” of grace.

I thought the phrase full of grace meant that God has nothing but favor for her, not necesarily implying sinlessness?

 

[CWBetts]

Prove what you just said 9above in blue) and I will listen. If it is merely the beginning, then when will you start?

John 16:13-- When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

John 21:25-- But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

1 Corinthians 11:2-- I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15-- So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

1 Timothy 3:15-- if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

2 John 12-- Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete.

3 John 13-14-- I had much to write to you, but I would rather not write with pen and ink; I hope to see you soon, and we will talk together face to face.

Bible alone? I don’t think so. The Church predated the Bible. And as I have shown, the very scriptures you claim to hold fast to depend on the acceptance of extra-Biblical teachings. The Bible places authority in th Church. Which Church? The one that has been around since the first century. The one started by th Apostles and the one that maintains Apostolic Tradition. The Catholic Church.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I thought the phrase full of grace meant that God has nothing but favor for her, not necesarily implying sinlessness?

If you’re full of grace, is there room left for sin??

 

[lil_flower_luv]

:banghead::banghead::knight1:

I pray for your soul; your spiritual condition is much worse than I thought…Lord have mercy.

I will pray for you.

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us!
Jesus, shine Your light on those ignorant of Your Word!

 

[CWBetts]

I will pray for you.

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us!
Jesus, shine Your light on those ignorant of Your Word!

You realize that is just gonna tick him off, right?

 

[lil_flower_luv]

You realize that is just gonna tick him off, right?

Thank you, Carl. But, I’ve let some of the remarks he’s made get to me. And I know he needs my prayers.

 

[Bengoshi]

I am pretty sure the Early Fathers would disagree, as would the reformers that you have accepted as the founders of your religion. Yeah, thats right. Luther, Calvin, Wesley. They had no issues with Mary. The contempt for the the Mother of God is a more recent man-made invention.

The problem is you see the rejection of the immculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption and other Marian dogmas as contempt for the Blessed Mother. No, it is not. Contempt is such a strong word to use and connotes hatred and despise. You very well know that Protestants do honor and love Mary as the mother of Jesus! A true Christian cannot have contempt for the mother of our Savior.

 

[Bengoshi]

First of all - the saints in heaven are NOT dead. They are FAR more alove than you or I and have been made perfect and righteous in the presence of God.

As far as we here on earth are concerned, they are DEAD. There are two types of death in Scripture, physical death and spiritual death. The saints in heaven are spritually dead until they are returned to their physical bodies on the day of the second coming of Christ.

• IF you know the Scriptures. Haven’t you ever read 2 Peter 3:8 (also see Psalm 90:4) where we are told that, "… with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day"?
  Heaven is outside of time and therefore everything happening on earth is like a finished painting.

That is no nonsense. What the RCC teaches about praying to the saints is nonsense. What does the days of the Lord have anything to do with this? Nothing! Not related.

Thirdly, in Rev 5:8

we are given a glimpse at just how alive these people in heav are and how they interced on our behalf:
"When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones (us here on earth)."
To deny that they can aslo pray for us is to deny the Body of Christ - of which we are ALL a part (1 Cor. 12:12-26). ALL of the parts of Christ’s Body share in the joy AND suffering of one another.

Yes, the saints in heaven do pray for us but that still does not prove that they can hear our prayers. That is a different issue. They can pray for us without hearing our prayers. I think they can see us if they want to but I doubt that they can read our minds.

Lastly, I think you have confused

John Martignoni’s explanation. He contends that the petitions of the faithful are revealed to those in heaven by God - as is EVERYTHING else. God is in charge of everything and even those in heaven have no power without him.

No, I listened to Martignoni’s talk over and over again. That was what he meant. I even had my girlfriend listen to it and she too found it absurd!

No, you’re wrong

here because Scripture indeed supports the idea of asking those in heaven - as well as those of us here on earth for prayers.

In James it also says that we are to confess our sins to one another and pray for each other so we may be healed because the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. That is addressed to those living here on earth, not to those who are dead and in heaven. The verse in that I quoted in my previous post is clear, it says ON EARTH, not in heaven.

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[Good_Fella]

Please answer if you have received Mary as your co-redeemer alongside with Jesus Christ. I know that answer varies within the Catholic Church.

I fail to understand your question in the context of my post to which you replied. It sounds more like a challenge and is too broad. If you mean has Mary herself redeemed the human race in co-ordination with Christ in strict justice, the answer is no. The office of principal mediatorship belongs exclusively to Christ by his sacred humanity being united to the divine Word. Only Jesus can redeem the world by making reparation for our sins with a satisfaction perfecte de condigno, for in his divine Person he is in no need of redemption and is the One who was offended by the sin of Adam. But Mary has made satisfaction for our sins de congruo proprie by co-operating in union with Christ in the divine plan of redemption through her spiritual suffering, she herself having been redeemed upon her immaculate conception and made worthy to help undo what Eve had helped wrought.

“And your own soul a sword will pierce, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2, 35

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[Bengoshi]

Rick -
Do you even bother to understand the Scripture verses you try to use as ammunition against the Catholic Church? I don’t think you do.

Romans 3:10, 23 explicitly states: “There is no one righteous, not even one; For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.” Is that so? How about babies or toddlers below the age of reason? What about those who are mentally challenged and may not have full use of their intellect and will? What about Jesus? St. Paul is speaking about those who trust in the Mosaic Law for their salvation.

Yes, babies are included. Babies also have original sin. That is why it’s called original sin. The Bible says in Psalm 51:5: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

 

[Bengoshi]

This may come as a shock to you, Bengoshi, but none of the saints are dead. Those who die in the Lord are “alive forevermore”.

There was no need to say this as I have already preempted it in my previous post.

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No, it is not I who said that but John Martignoni, a Catholic apologist. It is his concept not mine. I am just relaying to you what he said.
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[Bengoshi]

In regards to Revelation 5:8 How exactly do you derive an intercession? Maybe no one has responded to your satisfaction or because it makes no sense.

The bowls and the incense represent the prayers of all the saints through all the ages that the promised redemption might come.
Luke 1:8 (regarding Zacharias) Now it happened {that} while ***he was performing his priestly service before God ***in the {appointed} order of his division, 9 according to the custom of the priestly office, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And ***the whole multitude of the people were in prayer outside at the hour of the incense offering. ***

Multiply that scene of people offering prayers TO GOD by hundreds or thousands of years and this is the picture you see represented by the incense. Prayers offered to God by the people; not any intercessor by saints petitioning for those on earth to God as you have implied.

Revelation 8 is the same principle, but a little more detailed because there is angel acting as an OT priest and the saints in heaven are adding to the prayers from previous; praying for Satan to be defeated, but this has to do with the timing, most of the seals have been open and all that has been prophesied is about to reach a climax.

Is this person accurate concerning incense at the Mass?
Father William Saunders
Why do priests use incense at Mass? Where does it come from?—A reader in Alexandria

The use of incense in the ancient world was common, especially in religious rites where it was used to keep demons away. Herodotus, the Greek historian, recorded that it was popular among the Assyrians, Babylonians and Egyptians. In Judaism, incense was included in the thanksgiving offerings of oil, rain, fruits, wine (cf. Numbers 7:13-17). The Lord instructed Moses to build a golden altar for the burning of incense (cf. Exodus 30:1-10), which was placed in front of the veil to the entrance of the meeting tent where the ark of the covenant was kept.

We do not know exactly when the use of incense was introduced into our Mass or other liturgical rites. At the time of the early Church, the Jews continued to use incense in their own Temple rituals, so it would be safe to conclude that the Christians would have adapted its usage for their own rituals…The purpose of incensing and the symbolic value of the smoke is that of purification and sanctification. For example, in the Eastern Rites at the beginning of Mass, the altar and sanctuary area were incensed while Psalm 50, the “Miserere,” was chanted invoking the mercy of God. The smoke symbolizes the prayers of the faithful drifting up to heaven: Sounds like they are imitating the OT Levitical-style ritual.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INCENSE.htm

Very well said!

 

[CWBetts]

Anyone who says the saints cannot intercede for us is essentially saying that after death, we are cut off from the Body of Christ! That is an idea that is utterly without merit

 

[rchapm77]

The problem is you see the rejection of the immculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption and other Marian dogmas as contempt for the Blessed Mother. No, it is not. Contempt is such a strong word to use and connotes hatred and despise. You very well know that Protestants do honor and love Mary as the mother of Jesus! A true Christian cannot have contempt for the mother of our Savior.

Amen!
That some catholics percieve the rejection of some of their doctrine about Mary as disrespect towards her is a huge hinderence towards the unity and understanding that catholics and protestants should be striving for.

 

[rchapm77]

If you’re full of grace, is there room left for sin??

My understanding of the term grace is unmerited favor from God. So in that sense I think a person could be full of grace irregardless of a sinful condition or not. So in that sense I think yes there could be room left for sin. Though I do admit that my understanding of the term grace is a general understanding of the word as it is used in scripture, I havent given much thought to its spciefic use in this verse and how the word full comes before it. I’m sure there is more meaning there than I can understand yet.