Protestants and Mary

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rchapm77 said:
Amen!
That some catholics percieve the rejection of some of their doctrine about Mary as disrespect towards her is a huge hinderence towards the unity and understanding that catholics and protestants should be striving for.
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Rejection of the immaculate conception says that God is incapable of creating a human without Original Sin.
Rejection of the continued sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin is to say that God is incapable of protecting the vessel that will bear Him from sin.
Rejection of the perpetual virginity of Mary is to deny that Mary was “full of grace.” Special graces are needed to live a celibate life. Being full of grace, God provided Mary with these graces.

As you see not only is rejection of the Dogmas insulting to the Blessed Virgin, they are denying the truth of the Holy Scriptures, and even denying the power of God. Rejection of the Marian Dogmas is evil indeed.
 
CWBetts said:
Anyone who says the saints cannot intercede for us is essentially saying that after death, we are cut off from the Body of Christ! That is an idea that is utterly without merit
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I never thought that I would say this in response to any of your posts, but:amen:
 
Bengoshi said:
Yes, babies are included. Babies also have original sin. That is why it’s called original sin. The Bible says in Psalm 51:5: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”
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Isn’t that why the CC baptizes babies?
 
CWBetts said:
Anyone who says the saints cannot intercede for us is essentially saying that after death, we are cut off from the Body of Christ! That is an idea that is utterly without merit
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1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,​

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Ro 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Heb 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.​

Question: Is there something lacking in the ability of Jesus to intercede for us that you feel the need to pray to someone that has left their mortal body behind (Mary for one)?
 
Dokimas said:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,​

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ro 8:27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Ro 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Heb 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.​

Question: Is there something lacking in the ability of Jesus to intercede for us that you feel the need to pray to someone that has left their mortal body behind (Mary for one)?
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I certainly hope that you never ask any of your friends to pray for you, because it is exactly the same thing. Wait, not exactly the same. We know what kind of relationship the saints have with the Lord
 
CWBetts said:
I certainly hope that you never ask any of your friends to pray for you, because it is exactly the same thing. Wait, not exactly the same. We know what kind of relationship the saints have with the Lord
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Asking someone this side of death is quite different than hoping anyone but the Holy Spirit and Jesus could or would pray for me from the other side of death.​

BTW, any real Christian is a saint according to the Bible. When God saves them, He makes them a saint. Saints aren’t voted upon by popular opinion. Only God knows who are His.
 
CWBetts said:
I certainly hope that you never ask any of your friends to pray for you, because it is exactly the same thing. Wait, not exactly the same. We know what kind of relationship the saints have with the Lord
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BTW, you didn’t answer my question— Is there something lacking in the ability of Jesus to intercede for us?
 
Dokimas said:
BTW, you didn’t answer my question— Is there something lacking in the ability of Jesus to intercede for us?
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No there is not, bit asking others for intercession does not imply that there is.
 
Dokimas said:

Asking someone this side of death is quite different than hoping anyone but the Holy Spirit and Jesus could or would pray for me from the other side of death.​

BTW, any real Christian is a saint according to the Bible. When God saves them, He makes them a saint. Saints aren’t voted upon by popular opinion. Only God knows who are His.
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There are saints, and there are Saints. “Big S” Saints are those officially canonized by the Church. This is not to say that canonized Saints are the only people in heaven, but are those that in their life showed “heroic virtue” and/or were martyred, and that there is evidence of miracles stemming from their intercession. There are lots of people in heaven we just won’t know about until we get there, but the canonized Saints are heroes of the Faith. Explain to me why no one else in heaven can hear your prayers. You have a personal guardian angel. He can hear your prayers. I can see no reason why no one else can hear you ask “pray for me”
 
Dokimas said:
BTW, you didn’t answer my question— Is there something lacking in the ability of Jesus to intercede for us?
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How confused and twisted our outlook becomes when we wander from the Church Christ established for us…
Don’t you DARE ever pray for anyone close to you in their hour of need.
For that matter, don’t you DARE ever pray for your own needs ! Lest you risk putting yourself between you and GOD, taking the place of Jesus !!!
That is the folly of the Protestant perspective-- that Jesus could be JEALOUS of us, or anyone else, who offers prayer intentions for us.

Similar to the Protestant perspective (some, not all !) on Mary----thinking that if we love her and have a relationship with her, that Jesus would be Jealous because we don’t love only Him.
Prepare yourself, some day He may ask you why you have not honored His mother…

Do you not believe that those in Heaven are more ‘alive’ than WE are ?
And that they are in the presence of God ?
If you believe that, please tell us what restrictions you would like to put on what they can or cannot do, if it is the will of God !

+Peace,
Bob
 
Bob4BVM said:
And that they are in the presence of God ?
If you believe that, please tell us what restrictions you would like to put on what they can or cannot do, if it is the will of God !

+Peace,
Bob
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What does it mean to be one with God? When one is truly with God here on earth there is nothing that the believer can not do…Will our relationship with God be different, in heaven, then it is here on earth? We will be UNITED with God.
 
CWBetts said:
Rejection of the immaculate conception says that God is incapable of creating a human without Original Sin.
Rejection of the continued sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin is to say that God is incapable of protecting the vessel that will bear Him from sin.
Rejection of the perpetual virginity of Mary is to deny that Mary was “full of grace.” Special graces are needed to live a celibate life. Being full of grace, God provided Mary with these graces.

As you see not only is rejection of the Dogmas insulting to the Blessed Virgin, they are denying the truth of the Holy Scriptures, and even denying the power of God. Rejection of the Marian Dogmas is evil indeed.
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Argumentum non sequitur. God is certainly capable but He does not need to make it so. God does not need to protect the vessel from sin. God is God Almighty and can very well take care of Himself. A lot of meaning is being attached to the phrase “full of grace” when it should not be so. Catholics are concluding something which is not clearly stated nor implied in Scripture. “Full of grace” can mean a lot of different things. Assuming arguendo that Mary was indeed “full of grace” as the RCC puts it, the better explanation would be that God filled Mary with grace at the time Jesus inhabited her womb, or at the time of her conception of Jesus and not when Mary was herself was conceived by her mother Anne. This view is more in harmony with Scripture that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). I mean, having God the Son inside her body may definitely cleanse her from sin, but not before Jesus inhabited her body.

P.S. By the way, I don’t think it would really matter whether or not Mary was sinless or was a perpetual virgin. Such things shall in no way affect our salvation in Christ nor alter our Christology.
 
Bengoshi said:
Argumentum non sequitur. God is certainly capable but He does not need to make it so. God does not need to protect the vessel from sin. God is God Almighty and can very well take care of Himself. A lot of meaning is being attached to the phrase “full of grace” when it should not be so. Catholics are concluding something which is not clearly stated nor implied in Scripture. “Full of grace” can mean a lot of different things. Assuming arguendo that Mary was indeed “full of grace” as the RCC puts it, the better explanation would be that God filled Mary with grace at the time Jesus inhabited her womb, or at the time of her conception of Jesus and not when Mary was herself was conceived by her mother Anne. This view is more in harmony with Scripture that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). I mean, having God the Son inside her body may definitely cleanse her from sin, but not before Jesus inhabited her body.

P.S. By the way, I don’t think it would really matter whether or not Mary was sinless or was a perpetual virgin. Such things shall in no way affect our salvation in Christ nor alter our Christology.
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Yes “full of grace” can mean many different things. But it is the Church, and not you, that has the chrism of infallibility. This is no way violates Romans 3:23. “All” and “none” in the context of Romans are not absolutes. They are generalizations that allow for exceptions. Mary was one such exception. No God did not “need” to do anything. But He did. As the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and Mother of the Son, she was taken care of.
 
Bengoshi said:
Argumentum non sequitur. God is certainly capable but He does not need to make it so. God does not need to protect the vessel from sin. God is God Almighty and can very well take care of Himself.
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God commanded Moses that the ark of the Covenant be made from shittim, incorruptible acacia wood, and covered with the purest gold inside and out, for it was to serve as a sacred sanctuary for the holy Word of God. Afterwards it was placed in the Holy of Holies. God willed to make it so for himself; hence it could not be otherwise. The Blessed Virgin Mary is the sacred ark of the New Covenant - immaculate body and soul. And since God had fashioned her incorruptible, she was assumed into heaven body and soul.

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb.
Luke 1, 41

As the ark of the Lord was entering the City of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked down through her window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord.
2 Samuel 6, 16

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1, 43

David feared the Lord that day and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?”
2 Samuel 6, 9

Arise, Lord, and go to your resting place; you and the ark of your might.
Psalm 132, 8

Pax Christu :harp:
 
Bengoshi said:
Argumentum non sequitur. God is certainly capable but He does not need to make it so. God does not need to protect the vessel from sin. God is God Almighty and can very well take care of Himself. A lot of meaning is being attached to the phrase “full of grace” when it should not be so. Catholics are concluding something which is not clearly stated nor implied in Scripture. “Full of grace” can mean a lot of different things. Assuming arguendo that Mary was indeed “full of grace” as the RCC puts it, the better explanation would be that God filled Mary with grace at the time Jesus inhabited her womb, or at the time of her conception of Jesus and not when Mary was herself was conceived by her mother Anne. This view is more in harmony with Scripture that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). I mean, having God the Son inside her body may definitely cleanse her from sin, but not before Jesus inhabited her body.

P.S. By the way, I don’t think it would really matter whether or not Mary was sinless or was a perpetual virgin. Such things shall in no way affect our salvation in Christ nor alter our Christology.
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Amen, The issue of Mary having a sin nature or not falls into the category of disputable matters, (there is room for disagreement here without either side having to pass judgment on the other).
 
rchapm77 said:
Amen, The issue of Mary having a sin nature or not falls into the category of disputable matters, (there is room for disagreement here without either side having to pass judgment on the other).
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Yet, we get accused of idolatry, and Fundamentalists wont listen to explanations, which have been given ad nauseum.
 
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