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bookgirl32
Guest
Again, thousands of denominations and doctrines disagree on those very essentials. Who is right about the essentials?
- Status
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CWBetts
Guest
It is the crux of Protestantism to set oneself up as the final arbiter of Truth
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bookgirl32
Guest
I wouldn’t say that. Not knowing where one verse is hardly represents being ignorant of scripture. Now he knows where it is, so he knows the Bible even better. I’m sure he knows where a lot of things are that I don’t.
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elvisman
Guest
WRONG, again.
We do not make Christ an “idol”. He is God - above ALL idolatry. An idol is a false god. We DON’T idolize Mary, either. Get your facts straight.
Funny that you should accuse me of not being “Level-headed”. Is it because I don’t let you get away with bearing false witness against the Church? Probably . . .
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Dokimas
Guest
I don’t have the Bible memorized. While I understand the church of Jesus Christ very important, I don’t see it as our Catholic friends see it so the verses that seem to say what they believe are not on the top of my mind.
In context, we should note verse 16; seems when we want to focus on how important we, the church is, God the Holy Spirit brings us back to the Head of the church.16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
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Dokimas
Guest
I don’t think elvisman was looking down on Non-Catholics. He was looking down on the doctrine of Non-catholics. Two different things. You can’t help believing what you believe because you probably grew up in that belief or else was poorly catechized or heave a moral disagreement with the Church.
It is a case of condemn the doctrine, but love the believer.
I have no doubt that non-Catholics are sincere in their desire to follow Christ. They are just a little bit misguided as to what Christ is about.
But then again, that probably stems from years of being fed distorted theology and probably a lot of lies as well about what the Catholics actually believe.
But now that you are here, then there is a chance to rectify your erroenous perceptions.
Please try to put yourself in my shoes for a moment. Can you see how what you said to me I probably would say to you about what you believe?
Elvis regularly says some of us are anti-catholics and catholic haters. Why have you not told him he is incorrect? I’m suprised you have picked up on his way of putting things, that it’s, at best, condesending if not bordering on hateful.
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bookgirl32
Guest
He does have a duty to obey her, as His mother. As a human being, He was bound to obey His own commandments. In fact, at the Wedding at Cana, He does.
Where it’s not working for you is that you assume that Her will would be any different than His. I’m not trying to convince you of the Immaculate Conception, but if you for argument’s sake, in order to understand our point, assume that Mary was sinless, then you could agree that her will, since she never sinned, never went against His. So there would be no problem with Him obeying her.
That’s a great argument by the way. If He was truly human and God, then, yes, in order not to sin he would have to obey her. He would have to be the perfect human (which He is). The only way He could in good conscience always obey her, since He’s God, would be if her instructions were always correct. So, if Jesus if both fully God and man (which I assume you believe He is), He would only be able to sinlessly obey His mother if she were always in accordance with God’s will.
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bookgirl32
Guest
Verse 16, regardless of how you interpret it, does not, in context, contradict that “the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”. What you believe the Church to be may impact your interpretation of both verses, but it doesn’t change what verse 15 says.
And since I’ve recently gotten myself involved in this thread I felt I had to post that I will be leaving this, and all threads I’m involved in, for a little while. My child just informed me, “you’re on the computer too much.” He’s right
. It’s been a good discussion, thanks!
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elvisman
Guest
You are so far off the mark, it borders on bearing false witness against me.
**I have stated ad nauseam, that I have absolutely no problem with charitable discourse based on disagreement. **What I refuse to put up with are lies about the Church and perverted distortions about our beliefs by what can only be described as “anti-Catholics”.
If that’s what you want to proliferate - then I will expose you. However, if you want to have charitable dialogue - I’m all ears.
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centurion210
Guest
Bookgirl32, post #1090 is excellent. There is so much from Scripture about Mary, but that is one I had not heard before. Needless to say this is perfectly logical.
Elvisman, I can “feel your pain”. I am all worn out just reading the responses to your excellent, well thought out posts. Some of “RickHolland’s” responses were so illogical and unresponsive. I don’t know how you had the patience to keep responding as you did.
It’s too bad that more Protestants don’t want to engage in real dialogue. It seems like they will ask a question; you will respond and they will answer with something totally unrelated to your response. It’s like they have a script with many possible responses to Catholic teachings. They just keep picking one or another. There doesn’t seem to be any interest in really discussing a point.
Can anyone answer this question: “What is a mile wide and an inch deep?” ( I hope this is a permissable question). My answer to this question seems to have been well represented on this thread.
Elvisman, I can “feel your pain”. I am all worn out just reading the responses to your excellent, well thought out posts. Some of “RickHolland’s” responses were so illogical and unresponsive. I don’t know how you had the patience to keep responding as you did.
It’s too bad that more Protestants don’t want to engage in real dialogue. It seems like they will ask a question; you will respond and they will answer with something totally unrelated to your response. It’s like they have a script with many possible responses to Catholic teachings. They just keep picking one or another. There doesn’t seem to be any interest in really discussing a point.
Can anyone answer this question: “What is a mile wide and an inch deep?” ( I hope this is a permissable question). My answer to this question seems to have been well represented on this thread.
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Dokimas
Guest
The verse about the church, of course, is a wonderful verse. However, there is no evidence that it refers to the RCC (CC). Therefore, if you’re thinking this refers to your church, I believe you are most likely incorrect.Verse 16, regardless of how you interpret it, does not, in context, contradict that “the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”. What you believe the Church to be may impact your interpretation of both verses, but it doesn’t change what verse 15 says.
And since I’ve recently gotten myself involved in this thread I felt I had to post that I will be leaving this, and all threads I’m involved in, for a little while. My child just informed me, “you’re on the computer too much.” He’s right
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Seraphim25
Guest
Careful when rendering ones foolishness and not seeing the foolishness of the church itself. Therefore, history shows that the crusades was a disaster from the beginning and the pope used that leverage to gain ultimate power and control over the roman state. So be careful!
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elvisman
Guest
I did address it.
Like I said - if you want to have charitable dialogue - I’m all ears.
BUT - if you want to spew lies and half-truths - **I will expose you as a liar and angry anti-Catholic. **
Just don’t expect me to sit still an allow you to attack the Church without any rebuttal.
The choice is yours.
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elvisman
Guest
WHAT??
This has nothing to do with the Crusades - or rendering anybody a fool.
I asked a question.
**What exactly is your point?
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Dokimas
Guest
I guess you really don’t want dialogue because you continue not to respond to the fact you have falsely said some of us are angry and that we are anti-Catholic.
I may have been mistaken, but I have not lied one time in any of my posts. To continue to imply I have is BEARING FALSE witness. You should take the speck out of your eye before trying to take the log out of mine (notice I only called your’s a speck and mine the log.)
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Seraphim25
Guest
Obey and honoring can be rendered as two different but can be similar pending on the situation.For example when Jesus was at the temple teaching Jospeh and Mary both rebuked Jesus as to why he didn’t leave them. and Jesus rebukes back and says I am at my fathers house carrying out his business. So, from this standpoint who is rebuking who here? honoring is best defined as acknowledgment of who’s own authority even be tempoary. For example; we honor our bosses at work best when we submit ourselves to the boss even if we disagree. Also, the command honor they mother and father is best defined as acknowledging the son/daughter ship in its own rank. For example; Loving your father and mother can be defined as doing what the father and mother say, as long as they don’t break any physical laws (governmental laws) and most importantly Gods laws.
Also, note that our mother and fathers are only a temporary structure set up by God as a beautiful institution were the parents can be like God in disciplinary actions. But after we get married we cling to our spouse and no more our father and mother but obvously not taking away of honoring your parents as such.
Therefore, I don’t think that while Jesus is in heaven is getting commands by anybody else other than God the father or God the Holy Spirit ect. Keep in mind that Mary is still part of the body of Christ and is still subject to those laws too and it is not that she is somehow exempt from that.
I think a lot of people catholics and non-catholics alike get frusterated with the notion that Mary is somehow far superior to anybody on the planet that Mary shares something special with God that nobody else can have. This can’t be true because Jesus says that just as the Father gives glory and honor to Jesus thus Jesus gives glory and honor to all those we are called to enter the kingdom and to bear his image that was instituted from the beginning.
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humble_maid
Guest
God’s Blessing on all of you,
Please bear with me a little. It is easy to get offended especially when we hold sacred views that are being in some ways denigrated. The catholic church is constantly under attack especially by protestants since the reformation and now more so from the secular world.
I agree that the original purpose of Luther was to reform not to divide then he changed and all things got out of hand. Since then the church has been mocked and even defiled and the protestants kept that perception of the CC since its inception.
I have to admit that my fellow catholic brothers and sisters have diligently and accurately explained the CC doctrine and dogma; elvisman is no exception to this. He is very persistent and will not back down because he upholds the truth of our church. I consider you a brother(sister?) I can’t tell by your name sorry, however you may have biased opinions against the CC and vica versa.
Forgive me, this is not a judgement I am placing upon you but all we ask is to reason with wisdom and careful examination. Perhaps you will or will not understand but we will not change. Our faith has been solidified through 2000 years of evangelization, and historical documentation and oral tradition and Spiritual enlightenment and so on…many of us have taken the effort to really understand our faith before we proclaim it to the world.
God Bless you
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Dokimas
Guest
I’m not offended by anything on this board. I try never to allow myself to be offended.
I find it interesting that you (plural) of the RCC persuasion think we attack you, your church and your beliefs but you say you care for us and that’s why you to tell us we’re wrong. Sure some foolish people attack but others feel that we are just trying to lovingly point out Bible misunderstandings that you hold.- Status