Protestants and Mary

[CWBetts]

I’m not offended by anything on this board. I try never to allow myself to be offended.​

I find it interesting that you (plural) of the RCC persuasion think we attack you, your church and your beliefs but you say you care for us and that’s why you to tell us we’re wrong. Sure some foolish people attack but others feel that we are just trying to lovingly point out Bible misunderstandings that you hold.

It is this kind of arrogance that angers us. We have 2000 years of teachings to support us, yet you somehow have set yourself up at the final arbiter of Truth, and in doing so feel you need to tell us what we are doing wrong. Whatever your ecclessial community is, it is a veritable child compared to the Catholic Church. The truth you are talk is the milk of the word, and as long as you stay with Protestant communities, you will never reach the deeper theological understanding God wishes to give you because you separate yourself from his Church.

 

[Seraphim25]

It is this kind of arrogance that angers us. We have 2000 years of teachings to support us, yet you somehow have set yourself up at the final arbiter of Truth, and in doing so feel you need to tell us what we are doing wrong. Whatever your ecclessial community is, it is a veritable child compared to the Catholic Church. The truth you are talk is the milk of the word, and as long as you stay with Protestant communities, you will never reach the deeper theological understanding God wishes to give you because you separate yourself from his Church.

But does 2000 years of teaching equate to full understanding? For who knows the full depths of God, or who can enter into the mind of God? I think people in general (key point in general) feel as though the church can’t be wrong in anything it teaches. I am not saying that it is wrong with moral or spiritual guidance when it comes to Gods word but what of Mary or other teachings such as purgatory that all have a very ambiguous shroud that covers them. Luther didn’t like purgatory for many reasons; does that mean he need to leave the church no of course not but would anybody listen to him other wise? I doubt it because the church=the magistrate says otherwise. Therefore, how do we know what is truth and not. Well what does Paul say in his days when disputes arose? Paul stated; what does God say about it. And you can read the OT and NT to find these truths not just understanding the “Oral” tradition of the church; because it seems that a lot of the early church fathers writings were very subjective in nature and not objective. Therefore were opinions rise credibility decreases on each case surrounding it.

 

[Seraphim25]

I think people attack certian dogmas because the dogmas themselves cant stand by themselves. There seems to be major inconsistencies that when one thinks it just dosen’t seem to add up. Like for example Mary’s perpetual viriginity seems to have a lot of flaws. In one hand you have the church that teaches Mary needed to keep her vow before God but on the other what about Joseph? She has now dishonored him because she can’t have relations with her husband. When I got married I was told it is a sin not withhold yourself from your spouse and therefore, must engage in committing my full self to my spouse. All of marriage counciling hammered that into every bodies heads ect.

Also, the notion of having brothers and sisters alongside of Christ seems to be a very compelling case. The argument against that is well…it is cousin here because in Aramaic there isn’t a word for brother. Truly, but it was written in the Greek and in Greek there is a term for brother which is used in that exact spot. Sooo…?

 

[Dokimas]

It is this kind of arrogance that angers us. We have 2000 years of teachings to support us, yet you somehow have set yourself up at the final arbiter of Truth, and in doing so feel you need to tell us what we are doing wrong. Whatever your ecclessial community is, it is a veritable child compared to the Catholic Church. The truth you are talk is the milk of the word, and as long as you stay with Protestant communities, you will never reach the deeper theological understanding God wishes to give you because you separate yourself from his Church.

Part of what you say here is true: you are angry. I am not arrogant. If anyone is arrogant it is those here that ‘know’ they are correct. I know what I believe and I know I may be wrong. That’s not arrogance.

 

[historyb]

I have to say I was going to class today and on the way out of the blue I thought if God can count it righteous to Abraham and give His Salvation to King David why could not God do the same to Mary.

I am still rolling this around in my head, it was just so unusual because I wasn’t thinking about anything theological at the time I was thinking about Accounting.

 

[Dokimas]

I have to say I was going to class today and on the way out of the blue I thought if God can count it righteous to Abraham and give His Salvation to King David why could not God do the same to Mary.

I am still rolling this around in my head, it was just so unusual because I wasn’t thinking about anything theological at the time I was thinking about Accounting.

Abraham sinned and so did King David. In a round-about way you’re making a good point; maybe not the point you’re intending to make.

 

[Seraphim25]

I have to say I was going to class today and on the way out of the blue I thought if God can count it righteous to Abraham and give His Salvation to King David why could not God do the same to Mary.

I am still rolling this around in my head, it was just so unusual because I wasn’t thinking about anything theological at the time I was thinking about Accounting.

True but this is done not just to Mary but to all of us who have faith in God it is counted to them as righteous too. If Mary by her merit of faith was cleansed of original sin at conception I have no problem with it. But to claim that she was perfect or sinless before conception I would say not.

 

[Seraphim25]

WHAT??
This has nothing to do with the Crusades - or rendering anybody a fool.
I asked a question.

**What *exactly ***is your point?

My apologies I thought I made a post on a somebody else post.

 

[bookgirl32]

Why do you capitolize H in her?

Typo dokimas, typo.

 

[bookgirl32]

that Mary shares something special with God that nobody else can have.

Okay, I promised my husband I’d go easy on the forum for a while b/c it takes up my time but I can’t resist this one. Sorry Seraphim, she gave birth to Him, she’s His mother. If that doesn’t give her “something special” to share that “nobody else can have”, I don’t know what does. Jesus is fully human, He has a specific relationship with His mother, just as every mother and child do. No one else is His mother. No one else gave birth to Him. To deny that His relationship to her is unique to any other human being is to deny that He is fully human, which is a heresy proclaimed by all of Christianity, not just Catholicism.

 

[bookgirl32]

I have to say I was going to class today and on the way out of the blue I thought if God can count it righteous to Abraham and give His Salvation to King David why could not God do the same to Mary.

I am still rolling this around in my head, it was just so unusual because I wasn’t thinking about anything theological at the time I was thinking about Accounting.

Okay, regardless of where you go with that, this was an awesome post and made my night.

 

[Bengoshi]

We are saved by grace. But all that means is that salvation is free. If we are saved by faith in Jesus then are you saying that Abraham, Moses, etc are all in hell? They never knew of Jesus so never had a chance to believe in Jesus.

What did the Angel Gabriel say? Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE. The GRACE that we are saved by, Mary was already FULL OF IT even before she conceived Jesus.

Again, I have already mentioned this in a previous post. The OT “saints” had prospective faith in the coming Messiah. So they were still saved by their FAITH. Whereas, with Mary, she was still unable to exercise any faith in the coming Savior (Who is to be her Son) as she was still unconscious in her mother’s womb. The concept is very simple really…

That verse that says “full of grace” has already been discussed by others and myself in this thread ad nauseam. Just read those posts again.

 

[Bengoshi]

Correct about the local churches but these local Churches were all part of the one Catholic Church. The Body of Christ is the Catholic Church. Incorporation into the Body of Christ is by Baptism. If you have been baptized in the trinitarian way, then you are a member of the Body of Christ.

Thank you my brother in Christ! Well said! I have been baptized in the Trinitarian formula, that is why I am indeed a member of the Body of Christ.

 

[Bengoshi]

And the fact that we sinned brought about the Redeemer? Does that mean that sin is good?

The Catholic Church would not be where it is today if not for the protestant rebellion you are correct. She would be in a much better position, united in one Body instead of chopped up into 33,000 different pieces. She would be what Christ has prayed for. There would not be so many separated brothers and sisters.

In the end the reform happened, but not from the rebellious protesters. It came from within.

I just answered a poster who asked if any good came about because of the Protestant Reformation. The reform from the inside that you spek of would not even happen were it not for the Protestant “Rebellion” that you vehemently decry. It is most probable that the RCC would not have realized its corruption and ungodliness were it not for the efforts of Luther and the other Reformers to open the eyes of the Church.

 

[Bengoshi]

Who was the final, inspired and infallible authority on what was essential?

The Bible. Romans 14 is a good example. Honestly, I haven’t read the book, I just bought it recently and I am still trying to finish some books that I’ve begun reading. I am familiar with the author (Dr. Norman Geisler) though, in fact one of his books is being promoted here at CAF. He also recently published a four-volume work on Systematic Theology. I think it’s considered as his masterpiece.

 

[Bengoshi]

It is the crux of Protestantism to set oneself up as the final arbiter of Truth

I think what you’re actually describing is the Roman Catholic Church.

For Protestants, the final arbiter of truth is God Himself through the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Bengoshi]

Please try to put yourself in my shoes for a moment. Can you see how what you said to me I probably would say to you about what you believe?​

Elvis regularly says some of us are anti-catholics and catholic haters. Why have you not told him he is incorrect? I’m suprised you have picked up on his way of putting things, that it’s, at best, condesending if not bordering on hateful.

AMEN!

 

[Bengoshi]

Verse 16, regardless of how you interpret it, does not, in context, contradict that “the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”. What you believe the Church to be may impact your interpretation of both verses, but it doesn’t change what verse 15 says.

And since I’ve recently gotten myself involved in this thread I felt I had to post that I will be leaving this, and all threads I’m involved in, for a little while. My child just informed me, “you’re on the computer too much.” He’s right . It’s been a good discussion, thanks!

Hahaha! Yeah, it was nice having you around! Take care and Godbless!

 

[BornAgain89]

But the body of Christ is not divided. To whom shall me and you go to, to settle our dispute over Mary?

I am a convert of 13 yr. For the past few years i have really struggled with the fact that the Catholic church does not accept being Born Again or Saved. When I was born again 20 years ago my life changed in an instant. I no longer was interested in self centered stuff, i was totally interested in living for the Lord. And I also knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would go to heaven when i died. No and or ifs about it. I have heard so much to the contrary and have decided i am sitting in a Church and have sat there for years, that does not believe the way i do. I am leaving and going back to the Protestants, not sure if i will ever join another church. the catholic is the third church i have joined. I will not forsake the gathering together of Christians worshiping the Lord. But I am going to take Mary with me. I thank the Catholic Church for instilling in me such a respect and love for her. I will stand up for her in the Protestant churches when ever it need be. Of all the women in all the world , God choose Mary, she had to be very special.

 

[Bengoshi]

God’s Blessing on all of you,

Please bear with me a little. It is easy to get offended especially when we hold sacred views that are being in some ways denigrated. The catholic church is constantly under attack especially by protestants since the reformation and now more so from the secular world.

I agree that the original purpose of Luther was to reform not to divide then he changed and all things got out of hand. Since then the church has been mocked and even defiled and the protestants kept that perception of the CC since its inception.

I have to admit that my fellow catholic brothers and sisters have diligently and accurately explained the CC doctrine and dogma; elvisman is no exception to this. He is very persistent and will not back down because he upholds the truth of our church. I consider you a brother(sister?) I can’t tell by your name sorry, however you may have biased opinions against the CC and vica versa.

Forgive me, this is not a judgement I am placing upon you but all we ask is to reason with wisdom and careful examination. Perhaps you will or will not understand but we will not change. Our faith has been solidified through 2000 years of evangelization, and historical documentation and oral tradition and Spiritual enlightenment and so on…many of us have taken the effort to really understand our faith before we proclaim it to the world.

God Bless you

Nicely said!