Protestants and Mary

[benedictus2]

I just answered a poster who asked if any good came about because of the Protestant Reformation. The reform from the inside that you spek of would not even happen were it not for the Protestant “Rebellion” that you vehemently decry. It is most probable that the RCC would not have realized its corruption and ungodliness were it not for the efforts of Luther and the other Reformers to open the eyes of the Church.

Well this is where you are wrong. You see, the Church has always had problems. Prior to Martin Luther we have had some bad popes way before Martin Luther’s time. And God has raised many saints during these times to reform the Church. In that 1500 years of Christianity, in spite of all that, there was still only one Church. Only with Martin Luther did the splintering happen. And you can tell the tree by its fruit. What has happened now? We have thousands of Christian sects.

So what Luther has brought was in fact not reformation but DEFORMATION. The Body of Christ then, thought bleeding and coverred with sores was still one body. But no thanks to Luther, the blow was struck to chop it up. Amputation was a rather drastic remedy to boils and puss.

Also, during Luther’s time it was not all doom and gloom. There may have been some terrible happenings in some parts of the church, but not the entire Church. During that time, many heroic men and women laboured in God’s vineyard. Some of our great saints were from that time. St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Francis de Sales, etc.

If Luther had been more humble and just advocated for reform and left it at that, then he would have been a great reformer.

He should have taken a leaf out of St Francis of Assisi. Now there is one great reformer of the church. When it comes to the Church, reform is only ever achieved in humility and submission to God.

What Martin failed to do is to trust in God. To Trust that this is God’s (not Martin Luther’s) Church and He will not abandon it. So he took matters into his own hands and everything else is history.

 

[benedictus2]

Again, I have already mentioned this in a previous post. The OT “saints” had prospective faith in the coming Messiah. So they were still saved by their FAITH.

But the messiah they believed in was not Jesus Christ nor anywhere near like Jesus Christ. They believed in a different kind of Messiah.

Besides, in Noah’s and Abraham’s time there was no concept of a messiah yet so faith in a messiah was non existent.

I think “prospective faith” is just one of your coined words to wiggle out of this.

Whereas, with Mary, she was still unable to exercise any faith in the coming Savior (Who is to be her Son) as she was still unconscious in her mother’s womb. The concept is very simple really…

Only because you say that “salvation” comes only through faith. But that is not quite true. When babies are baptized, they have no conscious faith.

Also, what do you do with the severely mentally ill from birth who has no conscious faith?

That verse that says “full of grace” has already been discussed by others and myself in this thread ad nauseam. Just read those posts again.

Will try to read back.

 

[benedictus2]

However, it is a different case with Mary. It would be absolutely wrong to idolize her because she, like us, is a created being, although more blessed and privileged than us ordinary saints. For what higher honor is there than to carry our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ inside her own body? I understand how the RCC views Mary, it’s just that a lot of times, people go overboard that they seem to think Mary is superior to Christ, that He has a duty to OBEY her, being His mother. There is nothing farther from the truth.

No Catholic has ever claimed that Mary is superior to Christ.Some in fact feel that Christ is so far above them which is why they send their petitions to Mary to give to her Son. I know, not entirely true but there is a great truth in it if you look at the wedding of Cana where Mary interceded and Jesus performed His first miracle OUTSIDE of His hour.

As to obeying, yes, Jesus had a duty to obey her because He was a Jew. As the Bible said, He did not cling to His equality with God. So he became the perfect Jew, obeying the law perfectly.

In Hebrew, the word for honor is COVODA, that is “to give glory”. So when Jesus “honored” His mother, then Jesus gave glory to His mother.

We are only immitating Jesus when we honor Mary.

Also, the glory of Mary is not so much in her having carried Jesus in her womb. As Jesus Himself said, she was blessed because she did the will of the Father.

Her greatness comes from her perfect obedience to the Father’s will. Her Yes. Her Fiat.

And in our own little ways, if we can give a perfect yes to the Father, then we too like Mary can “conceive” and “give birth” to Jesus Christ in our midst.

 

[benedictus2]

Therefore, I don’t think that while Jesus is in heaven is getting commands by anybody else other than God the father or God the Holy Spirit ect.

I don’t think God the Father “commands” the Son in heaven.

Keep in mind that Mary is still part of the body of Christ and is still subject to those laws too and it is not that she is somehow exempt from that.

Now that she is in heaven she is UNITED to the God. I think we need to meditate more on what it means to be part of the Body of Christ.

Just think about this, your foot is part of you, your head is part of you.

I think a lot of people catholics and non-catholics alike get frusterated with the notion that Mary is somehow far superior to anybody on the planet that Mary shares something special with God that nobody else can have.

Yes she does by GOD’S OWN CHOOSING AND WILLING. God could have made Jesus come down to earth ala Adam and Eve style but He didn’t. He CHOSE a woman. God WILLED this to be so.

This can’t be true because Jesus says that just as the Father gives glory and honor to Jesus thus Jesus gives glory and honor to all those we are called to enter the kingdom and to bear his image that was instituted from the beginning.

But ths statement in no way detracts from the special role Mary played in the salvation history of “those we are called to enter the kingdom and to bear his image that was instituted from the beginning”.

 

[benedictus2]

Careful when rendering ones foolishness and not seeing the foolishness of the church itself. Therefore, history shows that the crusades was a disaster from the beginning and the pope used that leverage to gain ultimate power and control over the roman state. So be careful!

Factual support please. Perhaps you should read up what exactly the crusades are about.

 

[benedictus2]

Only One Body (church) with One Head. He’s perfect; we’re imperfect and will be so until Heaven when we give up or mortality.​

The One church is not my church nor your church nor the one in Rome. It’s the Body of Christ.

The one Church is the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. The Bible supports this. History supports this.

That is correct, the One Church is not your church, because your church was started by man.

 

[benedictus2]

We are all called to spread the Gospel of Jesus to a lost and dieing world. We are called to love one another. We are called to not judge each other. We are called to carry one anothers burdens. We are called to help one another when we stray from the loving care of Jesus.

We are called to proclaim the ENTIRE Gospel and not just bits and pieces of it. We are called to proclaim the Truth.

We must love each other, but this love must be grounded in Truth.

 

[Dokimas]

The one Church is the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. The Bible supports this. History supports this.

That is correct, the One Church is not your church, because your church was started by man.

Do tell what my church is.

 

[benedictus2]

Mary was in Him (or He was in her) when she assented to Coceive and carry Jesus in her womb. It was her acceptance by faith that made her righteous and just in the sight of God. However, before that act of the will, she could not have been made sinless. We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), same thing with Mary.

We are saved by the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ. The graces that come from that salvific event was made available to Mary even before her conception.

You can look at it this way, Jesus saves all of us by dragging us from the pit after we have fallen.

Jesus saves Mary by preventing her from falling into the pit.

It is a narrow understanding of Eph 2:8-9 that comes up with this conclusion.

 

[benedictus2]

Do tell what my church is.

I have got no clue. But since you just said “Christian” in your profile so presumably protestant. All protestant Churches were started by men.

 

[Dokimas]

I have got no clue. But since you just said “Christian” in your profile so presumably protestant. All protestant Churches were started by men.

Do you have a clue how many ‘religions’ say their ‘churches’ were started, directly or indirectly,
by God? Your claim is one of many, many over the years.​

Oh yes, I’d rather be associated with Christ Jesus (Christian) when asked what my religion is than with a church (Catholic or Protestant). It is Jesus that is the Author and Finisher of our faith, not a church.​

We are not supposed to be ashamed of Jesus and His Gospel. The Bible says nothing, that I’m aware of, about ashamed about a church.​

As for the church Jesus and His apostles founded, it’s people not an institution. All of its people are fallible; only the Head is infallible.

 

[onenow1]

Matthew 20​

20 Then the mother of the sons of Zeb’edee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something.
21 And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.”
22 But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.”
23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been PREPARED BY MY FATHER.”
24 And when the ten heard it, they were indignant at the two brothers.

Mary drank the cup at the foot of the cross, and was prepared by the Father so she gets the #1 spot.

Pece,and God Bless
onenow1

 

[benedictus2]

Do you have a clue how many ‘religions’ say their ‘churches’ were started, directly or indirectly,
by God? Your claim is one of many, many over the years.

But only we can actually support it Biblically and Historically. The historical facts are backed up not only by Cathoilc historians, but also by protestant and secular historians.

Oh yes, I’d rather be associated with Christ Jesus (Christian) when asked what my religion is than with a church (Catholic or Protestant). It is Jesus that is the Author and Finisher of our faith, not a church.

Well Christ started the Catholic Church. He would not have started His own Church if He was not particular which Church He wanted a Christian to belong to.

We are not supposed to be ashamed of Jesus and His Gospel. The Bible says nothing, that I’m aware of, about ashamed about a church.

And we are not. But you are, because you evade some part of Christ’s gospel that does not suit your own preconceived theology.

As for the church Jesus and His apostles founded, it’s people not an institution. All of its people are fallible; only the Head is infallible.

True of all its people are fallible but Christ gave that guarantee of infallibility to His Church so that we know it is indeed His Church.

And you are quite wrong. The Church is both an institutin and his people.

And no His apostles did not find a Church. Only Jesus did that. And He built that Church upon Simon, who he renamed Peter.

 

[Dokimas]

But only we can actually support it Biblically and Historically. The historical facts are backed up not only by Cathoilc historians, but also by protestant and secular historians.

Well Christ started the Catholic Church. He would not have started His own Church if He was not particular which Church He wanted a Christian to belong to.

And we are not. But you are, because you evade some part of Christ’s gospel that does not suit your own preconceived theology.

True of all its people are fallible but Christ gave that guarantee of infallibility to His Church so that we know it is indeed His Church.

And you are quite wrong. The Church is both an institutin and his people.

And no His apostles did not find a Church. Only Jesus did that. And He built that Church upon Simon, who he renamed Peter.

Thank you for your opinion and I guess the opinion of your church.​

I will agree you have some history; your history just doesn’t seem to go back as far as you’d like.​

You have no apparent Bible verses to back the specifics of what you believe about the Church Jesus founded.​

Looks like we’re going round and round and round … again and again and again …​

I’m dizzy! How about you?

 

[Dokimas]

Matthew 20​

20 Then the mother of the sons of Zeb’edee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something.
21 And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.”
22 But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.”
23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been PREPARED BY MY FATHER.”
24 And when the ten heard it, they were indignant at the two brothers.

Mary drank the cup at the foot of the cross, and was prepared by the Father so she gets the #1 spot.

Pece,and God Bless
onenow1

What caring, loving mother would not be with her offspring under those circumstances?

 

[centurion210]

What caring, loving mother would not be with her offspring under those circumstances?

You might check out some of the early pagan and Jewish(anti Christian) writers to see what personal values they had during that period.It may benefit your understanding.

 

[humble_maid]

Part of what you say here is true: you are angry. I am not arrogant. If anyone is arrogant it is those here that ‘know’ they are correct. I know what I believe and I know I may be wrong. That’s not arrogance.

God’s Blessing upon you,

When one believes in something to be true don’t they know this without the assumption that it may be wrong. Afterall, what is the point of believing if you think it may be wrong?

Definition of Believe:
–verb (used without object) 1. to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so

We can believe with certainty based on different facts but in these matters only God has the **Absolute Truth and Proof **which will always evade man regardless how intelligent, diligent, persevering we may be. Remember that God is Infinite and because of this many facets of His Person remain a mystery to be beheld; the further we delve into His Mercy and Love and the more we willingly become humble like unto children, the more He will reveal to us. Scripture is important to know Him but it is not enough. God is greater than words or the Holy Book itself. All His Being cannot be expressed in a single book. The CC understood this from the very beginning and as ever since made it a point to seek God’s Will in all matters.

So if my catholic brothers here are confident of what they say it is because they BELIEVE, and not because they are arrogant. If some are I ask your pardon on their behalf and mine. One should be able to forgive so please let us get onto more important matters. The Grace of God be with you all.

 

[Dokimas]

God’s Blessing upon you,

When one believes in something to be true don’t they know this without the assumption that it may be wrong. Afterall, what is the point of believing if you think it may be wrong?

Definition of Believe:
–verb (used without object) 1. to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so

We can believe with certainty based on different facts but in these matters only God has the **Absolute Truth and Proof **which will always evade man regardless how intelligent, diligent, persevering we may be. Remember that God is Infinite and because of this many facets of His Person remain a mystery to be beheld; the further we delve into His Mercy and Love and the more we willingly become humble like unto children, the more He will reveal to us. Scripture is important to know Him but it is not enough. God is greater than words or the Holy Book itself. All His Being cannot be expressed in a single book. The CC understood this from the very beginning and as ever since made it a point to seek God’s Will in all matters.

So if my catholic brothers here are confident of what they say it is because they BELIEVE, and not because they are arrogant. If some are I ask your pardon on their behalf and mine. One should be able to forgive so please let us get onto more important matters. The Grace of God be with you all.

I was commenting on being called arrogant. I really wasn’t accusing anyone of arrogance. My meaning was that before pointing a finger, look deep within.​

BTW, belief doesn’t make something true, no matter how strong the belief.​

We need the Holy Spirit, the Word of God and fellow believers in our walk here on earth.

 

[tmac1956]

That does not answer the question if you consider Mary to be your co-redeemer. I know Catholics are quite divided over this future potential dogma. BTW… I notice you are not willing to answer direct questions to you, and avoid them with unrelated propaganda. It’s not a very honest way to debate and discuss things.

2nd – I don’t think you have a proper understanding of the prefix “co-”. For example: A co-pilot is NOT EQUAL to a pilot; quite to the contrary, he/she is subservient to the pilot.

 

[fbl9]

I was commenting on being called arrogant. I really wasn’t accusing anyone of arrogance. My meaning was that before pointing a finger, look deep within.​

BTW, belief doesn’t make something true, no matter how strong the belief.​

We need the Holy Spirit, the Word of God and fellow believers in our walk here on earth.

Do you know Christ to be true ? How is it that you know this to be true?

When i use’ know’ i mean it the sense above,

To which church are we to ake our dispute over Mary to.?