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tmac1956
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The Bible is not the sole authority. Is it profitable? Yes! Is it authoritative? Yes! Is it the sole authority? No – and nowhere in scripture does it say that about itself. That is a man-made doctrine as well as a logical fallacy.
If there is but one truth (the Holy Spirit) then how do you know that your interpretations of scripture are true and mine (or perhaps even some in your own church) are not? That’s a weak argument in my opinion.
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elvisman
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**And if you go back and read the posts – it has already been proven ad nauseam that the “siblings” of Jesus mentioned in Scripture were NOT uterine brothers. **You may have missed it, so I’ll review:
In the Septuagint, the normal Greek words for “brother(s) “adelphos” and “adelphoi” were used much more liberally than the normal meaning. It was applied to cousins, uncles, nephews and kinsmen alike. The Aramaic word, “ach”, encompasses the meanings for brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), relative, kinship, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman. The attempt by some Protestants to apply one word for all of these meanings in 21st century English is ludicrous. Just as languages differ – so do the meanings of different words.**
**It can be illustrated that Jesus himself and the Apostles studied and quoted from the Septuagint. The fact is that many passages in the New Testament are directly correlated to these 7 books from the Septuagint. Some examples include: Matt. 27:42/Wis. 2:18-20, Luke 24:4/2 Macc. 3:26, John 10:22/1Macc 4:36 & 52-59, Rom. 11:33/Judith 8:14, 1 Cor. 10:20/4:7 and 1 Pet. 1:6-7/Wis. 3:5-6. The Septuagint use of the word “Adelphos” is used MUCH more liberally that the regular Greek. **
Furthermore, there was no term for the word “cousin” in the Aramaic language that our Lord spoke. When the Old Testament was translated into Greek in the centuries before the birth of Christ (the Septuagint), the words “adelphos” and “adelphoi” were used in places where “ach” was. This is why we have many examples in the Septuagint of the following:
In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28). In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his uncle Laban.
Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).
There is another problem for Protestants who try to prove that Mary had other children and list the names given in the bible. They give the names of these adelphoi, James, Joseph (Joses), Jude (Judas), and list the passages that mention these adelphoi, (Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5).
According to the 2nd century document, The Protoevangelium of James, these brothers and sisters of the Lord were Joseph’s children from another marriage. However, there is stronger Scriptural evidence that would debunk the myth of these “siblings”.
**The “other Mary” at the foot of the cross is described as being the mother of James and Joses and Salome. She is also described as being Mary’s (mother of Jesus) “sister” (adelphe) (John 19:25).
**James is elsewhere described as the son of Alphaeus (Matt. 10:3), which would mean this Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. But Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. It’s also possible that Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the same way that Saul took the name Paul.
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elvisman
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**Ezek. 44:1-2 **prophesies of Mary:
He said to me: “This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed.”
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant – the FULFILLMENT of the OT type – the Ak of the Covenant, which carried symbols of the word of God. Mary carried the ACTUAL Word – Jesus, who is God himself. The OT type was to remain untouched and undefiled under penalty of death (2 Sam. 6:6-7).
Joseph knew these things and honored them.
**Writings or the Early Church, including the *****The Protoevangelium of James ***say that the older Joseph married Mary as a protector, who was consecrated to the Temple – much like – much like Anna, the prophetess (2:36-38).
For sombody who identifies themselves as a Catholic - you sure don’t seem to have much faith in the promises of christ to his Church (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).
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Dokimas
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How strong is your agrument that your beliefs are correct because my church says they are true and my church has been around for 2000 yrs? Now be honest with yourself.
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CWBetts
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The difference is you have no argument as to why the Church is wrong.
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raderag
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What was the point of Chalcedon? To elevate Mary? Can you show me some evidence of such?
Its sad that you think that. Due homage starts with recognizing her as the theotokos. Muslims deny Christ as the son of God and thus deny who Mary is also. Give me a break.
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Dokimas
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There have been good reasons that some of the teachings you believe to be true are not true. I can’t help you see the truth presented.
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CWBetts
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Wow that was nice and…vague
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rchapm77
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lol! Amen
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Seraphim25
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Okay first off before I repost a previous thread on here I will have to say that you must read the FULL context of what I stated here. Therefore, don’t just take a certain peice and slam it down on the table without examining the content. IF you wish re-read what I stated. Thx
Obey and honoring can be rendered as two different but can be similar pending on the situation.For example when Jesus was at the temple teaching Jospeh and Mary both rebuked Jesus as to why he didn’t leave them. and Jesus rebukes back and says I am at my fathers house carrying out his business. So, from this standpoint who is rebuking who here? honoring is best defined as acknowledgment of who’s own authority even be tempoary. For example; we honor our bosses at work best when we submit ourselves to the boss even if we disagree. Also, the command honor they mother and father is best defined as acknowledging the son/daughter ship in its own rank. For example; Loving your father and mother can be defined as doing what the father and mother say, as long as they don’t break any physical laws (governmental laws) and most importantly Gods laws.
Also, note that our mother and fathers are only a temporary structure set up by God as a beautiful institution were the parents can be like God in disciplinary actions. But after we get married we cling to our spouse and no more our father and mother but obvously not taking away of honoring your parents as such.
Therefore, I don’t think that while Jesus is in heaven is getting commands by anybody else other than God the father or God the Holy Spirit ect. Keep in mind that Mary is still part of the body of Christ and is still subject to those laws too and it is not that she is somehow exempt from that.
I think a lot of people catholics and non-catholics alike get frusterated with the notion that Mary is somehow far superior to anybody on the planet that Mary shares something special with God that nobody else can have. This can’t be true because Jesus says that just as the Father gives glory and honor to Jesus thus Jesus gives glory and honor to all those we are called to enter the kingdom and to bear his image that was instituted from the beginning.
Obey and honoring can be rendered as two different but can be similar pending on the situation.For example when Jesus was at the temple teaching Jospeh and Mary both rebuked Jesus as to why he didn’t leave them. and Jesus rebukes back and says I am at my fathers house carrying out his business. So, from this standpoint who is rebuking who here? honoring is best defined as acknowledgment of who’s own authority even be tempoary. For example; we honor our bosses at work best when we submit ourselves to the boss even if we disagree. Also, the command honor they mother and father is best defined as acknowledging the son/daughter ship in its own rank. For example; Loving your father and mother can be defined as doing what the father and mother say, as long as they don’t break any physical laws (governmental laws) and most importantly Gods laws.
Also, note that our mother and fathers are only a temporary structure set up by God as a beautiful institution were the parents can be like God in disciplinary actions. But after we get married we cling to our spouse and no more our father and mother but obvously not taking away of honoring your parents as such.
Therefore, I don’t think that while Jesus is in heaven is getting commands by anybody else other than God the father or God the Holy Spirit ect. Keep in mind that Mary is still part of the body of Christ and is still subject to those laws too and it is not that she is somehow exempt from that.
I think a lot of people catholics and non-catholics alike get frusterated with the notion that Mary is somehow far superior to anybody on the planet that Mary shares something special with God that nobody else can have. This can’t be true because Jesus says that just as the Father gives glory and honor to Jesus thus Jesus gives glory and honor to all those we are called to enter the kingdom and to bear his image that was instituted from the beginning.
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lil_flower_luv
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Yes, around and around. :hypno: :doh2:
You should feel bad for us Catholics - we have to keep repeating ourselves.
You can pick and choose in this thread…anyone you want to quote, and things you want to address from said quotes. And you can pick and choose what you will ignore…so, why does it look to me that you ignore those who actually bring some Truth into the mix?? :ehh:
Example: There are countless times when you could have replied to something Elvisman or CWBetts, or any other Catholic on this thread posted, and you didn’t. Why? And these people I mentioned have been doing nothing but addressing everything you said!
I’m simply reporting what I’ve seen.
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Dokimas
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Yes, around and around. :hypno: :doh2:
You should feel bad for us Catholics - we have to keep repeating ourselves.
You can pick and choose in this thread…anyone you want to quote, and things you want to address from said quotes. And you can pick and choose what you will ignore…so, why does it look to me that you ignore those who actually bring some Truth into the mix?? :ehh:
Example: There are countless times when you could have replied to something Elvisman or CWBetts, or any other Catholic on this thread posted, and you didn’t. Why? And these people I mentioned have been doing nothing but addressing everything you said!
I’m simply reporting what I’ve seen.
We do see thing either the way we are programed, the way we want or the way we’ve been taught.
I’d love it if you would be specific and tell me some wisdom I’ve over looked. If I can, I’d be glad to comment.
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Seraphim25
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You are write I don’t have much faith in a church that is being ran by men.I instead rely on Christ for my faith and hope and not what the church says or prescribes. When it comes to morals and when it comes to scripture I listen but after that I am struggling with these outside concepts that to me are extremely speculative and subjective in nature. Example of this is the assumption of Mary…the church assume that Mary was lifted up to heaven bodily and spiritually. But again this is assumption and can’t be rendered as a dogmatic stance that one HAS to believe to be saved.
I am not going to bash the chuch but the church just has all here would agree has had a very dark past and present (situations arising infidelity in the church and they aren’t removed from there posts but not limited that some might have lost there preist hood) Therefore, that this shows that the church is NOT as perfect as some proclaim but is NOT as evil as others proclaim. Like I said before the early church writings the book of Anna regarding Mary are all speculation and can’t be taken as well ooo I like this but I don’t like that or man this is really cool to naw that can’t be correct and then say here you go this is the truth. Come on there is something out of place with this type of theology. New age thinkers and philosophers do this, Christians should be far off of this type of anamorphic thinking.
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lil_flower_luv
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I’ve tried to step into a Protestant’s mindset…I just can’t imagine why so many are Protestant. If you’re truly happy where you are, and have God’s peace, then that’s great. My Catholic Faith is the only thing that will ever make sense to me in this world.
I believe I would have to comb throughout this whole thread in order to find the times you (or other non-Catholics) have outright ignored posts addressed to you by Catholics. I have seen it…and I do try to be an honest Christian.
My flaw is that I tend to stray threads off topic - like now!
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Seraphim25
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I don’t think God the Father “commands” the Son in heaven.
Now that she is in heaven she is UNITED to the God. I think we need to meditate more on what it means to be part of the Body of Christ.
Just think about this, your foot is part of you, your head is part of you.
Yes she does by GOD’S OWN CHOOSING AND WILLING. God could have made Jesus come down to earth ala Adam and Eve style but He didn’t. He CHOSE a woman. God WILLED this to be so.
But ths statement in no way detracts from the special role Mary played in the salvation history of “those we are called to enter the kingdom and to bear his image that was instituted from the beginning”.
Okay great all of what you say could be true except…this also must be true for all Christians. I think the problem with labeling is that it becomes very ambiguous about all the other folks who have did the will of God throughout the ages. Very example Paul should be rendered as co-medatrix and co-redeemer because it appears but not limited to just Paul as teh biggest advocate of the gentiles and to the Jews that spread the gossple.Why can’t he have a title like that who Peter or any others who have died and has been tormented for Christs sake. Albeit, I am not God but nor is the Pope either.
We are all called to be planters of Christ to people…we are all called to be co-heirs alongside with Christ. We are all called to be the mirror by which people see Jesus. When we start to label one person who attains all these things it can become very dangerous and can very easily be idioltry very quickly. Not saying you we are there yet but it can turn that way…I was listening to a catholic radio were litterly this priest demanded Mary to do something about a certian issue in his church. and after this guy came in she gave thanks to Mary??? This is where these worshiping of Mary steam from. It was like he went to God and said hey, I have this problem that I need your help on give me somebody to fix it and then God sends Mary (which I have no problem) But because this individual went straight to Mary and even gave thanks to Mary is an act of worship were we need to give all supplications and prayers to God.
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onenow1
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Yes, around and around. :hypno: :doh2:
You should feel bad for us Catholics - we have to keep repeating ourselves.
You can pick and choose in this thread…anyone you want to quote, and things you want to address from said quotes. And you can pick and choose what you will ignore…so, why does it look to me that you ignore those who actually bring some Truth into the mix?? :ehh:
Example: There are countless times when you could have replied to something Elvisman or CWBetts, or any other Catholic on this thread posted, and you didn’t. Why? And these people I mentioned have been doing nothing but addressing everything you said!
I’m simply reporting what I’ve seen.
Peace and God Bless
onenow1
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Dokimas
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I try to answer if there is a Bible verse that directly answers the question or statement. I somethimes don’t answer things that have been answered before. Sometimes I don’t feel like getting into a discussion that I feel will get nowhere; sometimes I do answer even though I don’t think it will get anywhere.
Also there are times it seems to me that statements of Scripture meaning are taken so out of context that I feel nothing I could say would make any difference. I get a bit frustrated.
Have you noticed that those you think give good answers sometimes don’t answer good questions or statements as well? It happens, you know?
Oh, sometimes I don’t feel like answering statements that seem arrogant.
My flaw is that I’m all too human.
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lil_flower_luv
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I understand you. Sorry, I won’t change the way I feel about the situation, however…we all dodge posts from time to time. Oh, and about your “scripture meaning being taken out of context” comment: Likewise.
God Bless
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