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PJM
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My Friend
As a “newbee” might I humly suggest that you QUOTE
whomever your replying to so others can follow the dialog
God Bless you!
Patrick
No, there is not a Protedtant Church. There are communions that are identified as Protestant, the term now meaning loosely western non-catholic Christian. Beyond that the term has almost no meaning.
As for you last comment, even the CC recognizes sacraments, such as baptism and marriage, in non-catholic churches, and Cardinal Ratzinger expressed a belief in " the salvation granting presence" of Christ in a Lutheran Eucharist.
Jon
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mattp0625
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Baptism, yes. Eucharist or confession? Absolutely not. Marriage - only to the extent of considering whether or not a person needs an annulment after divorce.
It has significant meaning. The Protestant Reformation did happen. It was a protest, and then a protest of the first protest, and so forth.
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PJM
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Very well sated,I see.
That’s very noble of you to concern yourself with their salvation!
As another poster stated, it’s impossible to know what God will do as only He knows the disposition of hearts… I do know being a former protestant that these folks are very genuine and well intended. And if I know that, I’m pretty sure God knows that and so I pray for mercy for all those not yet united to the church.
Pax
Blessings,
F
ffg
Guest
Encouraging to see your first line after being out with co-workers last evening.
One of whom was all too interested in bashing his Catholic Church over his incorrect and out of context view of the annulment process.
For the subject - Just thinking as if I was converting - I think I would want my first confession after being brought into the Church to be a scheduled meeting.
I would guess that in some parish RCIA programs, the first confession is scheduled as a part of the whole conversion process after Easter.
I wouldn’t be too concerned with logistics during the confession itself, a good confessor guides through confession and frequent use over time brings about familiarity with the process.
Absolution does it’s thing, even if we forget a sin.
Perfect memory is not a requirement for a ‘good confession’, rather an honest and repentant person.
Take care,
Mike
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PJM
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RE: Protestant Baptism
In the end, it becomes a issue of little significance, as it is the NORM to “re-baptize” when the original Baptism cannot be confirmed or if it’s " matter & OR, form" are thought to have been invalid.
a CONDITIONAL-Baptism is performed; meaning " that IF, IF, the original Baptism either did not take place or actually qualify as a Christian Baptism John3:5 & Mt 28:19-20; THEN the "new: Baptisms will take effect. IF God accepted the 1st baptism, then the effects of the 2nd Baptism are negated.
Easter Blessings,
Patrick
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KjetilK
Guest
Four things are necessary for any valid sacrament: Valid minister (a priest or a bishop in the case of Eucharist or confession); valid intent (to do what the Church does, facere quod facit ecclesia); valid form (for instance "I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit); and valid matter (for instance bread and wine, in the case of the Eucharist).
The Roman Catholic bishops of Bergen and Oslo (In Norway) continued as bishops.
So what you are saying is that because someone broke off from a Lutheran church, it is somehow proof of the ‘problematic nature’ of ‘Protestantism’? But when someone brakes off from the Roman Catholic Church, it has nothing to do with said Church?
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PJM
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JON MY FRIEND,
Are you saying that Benedict has proclaimed Lutheran Holy Communion to be equal to that of the RCC:shrug:
Please clarify and provide the evidence
God Bless you,
Patrick
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mattp0625
Guest
Yes, I heard the succession theories through bishops in Norway who supposedly joined the Reformation.
If these bishops accepted Lutheranism or started a Lutheran Church, for which which I have yet to see sufficient evidence, they cannot remain Catholic. It does not work that way.
You can’t break away and then refine the definitions to say you did not break away.
An ordained priest or bishop can be excommunicated or defrocked.
Either way, a Catholic bishop, or archbishop, has exactly zero authority to make his own doctrine.
Well, of course you need to say this. and of course, we disagree.
I have no idea what this means. As was explained earlier in the thread, the protest was a formal protest against the civil authorities. In fact, it is very much like the protest that the Catholic church and the LCMS are participating together in against the Obama Care HHS Mandate. Just like the protest today, it was a protest against attempts by civil authorities to limit religious free exercise.
cat.xula.edu/tpr/events/speyer/
The term had little to do with doctrinal dispute. That is why it is incorrect to say the is a “protestant church”.
Jon
No, I am not saying that at all. For Cr. Ratzinger to say that would have been a serious matter. It is safe to say that he held that our sacrament was more than a nothing, as some Catholic apologists claim.JON MY FRIEND,
Are you saying that Benedict has proclaimed Lutheran Holy Communion to be equal to that of the RCC:shrug:
Please clarify and provide the evidence
God Bless you,
Patrick
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm
Jon
Please explain how the Church of Norway is different than the PNCC, or even the EO.
Jon
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mattp0625
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Church of Norway? Bishops?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_in_Denmark%E2%80%93Norway_and_Holstein
The Reformation in Denmark–Norway and Holstein was the transition from Roman Catholicism to Lutheranism in the realms ruled by the Copenhagen-based House of Oldenburg in the first half of the sixteenth century. After the break-up of the Kalmar Union in 1521/1523, these realms included the kingdoms of Denmark and Norway and the Duchies of Schleswig (a Danish fief) and Holstein (a German fief), whereby Denmark extended over today’s Denmark, Iceland, Greenland, Faroe islands, Skåneland and Gotland in Sweden, and Øsel (Saaremaa) in Estonia.
The Protestant Reformation was initiated by Martin Luther’s 95 theses in 1517, and reached Holstein and Denmark in the 1520s. Lutheran figures like Hans Tausen gained considerable support in the population and from Christian II, and though the latter’s successor Frederick I officially condemned the reformatory ideas, he tolerated their spread. His son Christian III officially introduced Lutheranism into his possessions in 1528, and on becoming king in 1536 after the Count’s War, Lutheranism became official in all of Denmark-Norway. The Catholic bishops were removed and arrested, and the church was reorganized based on Lutheran church orders drawn under the aegis of Luther’s friend Johannes Bugenhagen in 1537 (Denmark-Norway) and 1542 (Holstein).
The Lutheran order established during the Protestant reformation is the common root of the Church of Denmark, the Church of Norway, the Church of Iceland and the Church of the Faroe Islands. It also triggered Denmark’s unsuccessful involvement in the Thirty Years’ War under Christian IV, who led the defense of a Protestant coalition against the Catholic League’s Counter-Reformation.
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mattp0625
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Just to complete the post, the Polish National Church creates its own doctrines on contraception, divorce and so forth. Hence, it’s also not in communion.
It may not be in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but even the Vatican recognizes their orders as valid.
I will let Father K defend his orders, as he knows them better than I do. What I do understand is he can clearly trace his line of bishops.
Jon
BTW, the EO has a view of divorce and contraception different than Rome’s, as well.
Jon
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mattp0625
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To complete the loop on Norway:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Bugenhagen
Johannes Bugenhagen (24 June 1485 – 20 April 1558), also called Doctor Pomeranus by Martin Luther,** introduced the Protestant Reformation in the Duchy of Pomerania and Denmark in the 16th century. Among his major accomplishments was organization of Lutheran churches in Northern Germany and Scandinavia. He has also been called second Apostle of the North.**
Bugenhagen first encountered the theology of Luther in the reformer’s Prelude on the Babylonian Captivity of the Church in 1520. At first he did not like Luther’s thoughts at all. However, once he had studied it more, Bugenhagen became a supporter of the Reformation and moved to Wittenberg.
After he had outlined his reform ideas in a letter to the Hamburg community, **Bugenhagen was the most important figure in the Protestant Reformation in Northern Germany and Scandinavia.[5] He took an active lead in creating new church orders **(Kirchenordnungen) for Hildesheim (1544),[5] Hamburg (1528/29),[5][10] Lübeck (1530–1532),[5] the Duchy of Pomerania (1534/5),[5] East Frisia (1534/5),[5] Schleswig-Holstein (1542),[11] Braunschweig (1528),[5][10] Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel (1543),[5] and Denmark-Norway (1537),[11] where he also crowned Christian III.[12]
In Wittenberg, Bugenhagen was elected parish pastor on October 25, 1523,[4] making him Martin Luther’s pastor and confessor.[5] He was a member of Luther’s team translating the Holy Bible from Latin to German, and opened the debate on Ulrich Zwingli’s reforms.[5]
On 17 March 1533,[7] he was promoted doctor of theology at the university of Wittenberg, together with Johannes Aepinus and Kaspar Cruciger.[7][8] **The promotion was supervised by Martin Luther, based on Philipp Melanchthon’s theses, financed and attended by Frederick III, Elector **of Saxony, and formally granted by deacon Justus Jonas. With the ceremony in Wittenberg’s castle church (Schloßkirche),[7] Aepinus, Bugenhagen and Cruciger became the first three Protestant doctors of theology.[8]
This earned him later the epithet second Apostle of the North.[13] Not only did he create the new rules, he also established them and convinced people to follow them. Bugenhagen produced rules and regulations for religious service, for schooling, and for social issues of the church. In 1539, he became superintendent of the Lutheran Church in Saxony.
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mattp0625
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There’s the so-called “apostolic succession” in Norway.Not sure what this has to do with the conversation.
Jon
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