Protestants and mortal sin

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mattp0625 said:
There’s the so-called “apostolic succession” in Norway.
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Again, Father K can explain AS in Norway, since he is a part of it, ordained in it.
Let me further say that, while I respect your defending the Catholic position on orders, that doesn’t mean Lutherans are, generally, concerned about that view. Would we like Catholic recognition of our orders, as we recognize yours? Sure. Do we need it? Nope. We know our orders are valid.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Again, Father K can explain AS in Norway, since he is a part of it, ordained in it.
Let me further say that, while I respect your defending the Catholic position on orders, that doesn’t mean Lutherans are, generally, concerned about that view. Would we like Catholic recognition of our orders, as we recognize yours? Sure. Do we need it? Nope. We know our orders are valid.

Jon
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Arresting the Catholic bishops and inserting (and promoting) your connected colleagues who are financed by heads of state? Yikes.

Seems that Iceland was even worse.
 
mattp0625 said:
Arresting the Catholic bishops and inserting (and promoting) your connected colleagues who are financed by heads of state? Yikes.

Seems that Iceland was even worse.
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Please, let’s not go there. the treatment of the Evangelical Catholic reformers was just as bad. The treatment of Anabaptists by Catholics and Lutherans was probably worse.
The central European Lutherans wanted to maintain AS, but the corruption within Church at that time, and the dynamics of the debate made that impossible.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Please, let’s not go there. the treatment of the Evangelical Catholic reformers was just as bad. The treatment of Anabaptists by Catholics and Lutherans was probably worse.
The central European Lutherans wanted to maintain AS, but the corruption within Church at that time, and the dynamics of the debate made that impossible.

Jon
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Except - that isn’t our claim to apostolic succession. We can actually trace it.

Here, you’re claiming apostolic succession that was actually nothing more than a take over by force instigated by connected people.
 
mattp0625 said:
Yes, I heard the succession theories through bishops in Norway who supposedly joined the Reformation.

If these bishops accepted Lutheranism or started a Lutheran Church, for which which I have yet to see sufficient evidence, they cannot remain Catholic. It does not work that way.
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Catholicity has to do with having a valid bishop. You conflate validity and liceity. And you can just open up a history book on Norway. There are many. article about Hans RevWikipedia, the last Roman Catholic, and First Lutheran Bishop of the Oslo.
mattp0625 said:
If these bishops accepted Lutheranism or started a Lutheran Church, for which which I have yet to see sufficient evidence, they cannot remain Catholic. It does not work that way.
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It’s always interesting to have to educate Roman Catholics on what their own Church teaches. You conflate validity and liceity. According to your own, Roman Catholic, Church, it is illicit to celebrate the sacraments outside the communion of the Roman Pontiff (including in the Orthodox churches). It is, however, not necessarily invalid to do so. As I’ve said, four things are necessary for any valid sacrament: valid minister; valid intent; valid form; and valid matter.

In the case of the Eucharist, this means that you need (1) a baptised male who has been ordained priest by a validly consecrated bishop, or a baptised male who has been consecrated bishop by a validly consecrated bishop; (2) valid intent by the minister, to do what the Church does, facere quod facit ecclesia; (3) valid form (the words of institution); and (4) bread and wine.

The Roman Catholic Church doesn’t teach that validity vanishes when you leave the communion of the Roman Pontiff.
 
mattp0625 said:
There’s the so-called “apostolic succession” in Norway.
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Your ignorance speaks volumes. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that we lost valid orders, which I do not agree with. That has nothing to do with the situation now. In the 1990s, we came into formal communion with the Church of England, and every episcopal consecration has since been done with a Anglican bishop present (including the consecration of the current Bishop of Bjørgvin, who ordained me in 2014). You might claim that the Anglicans also lost their orders. I don’t agree with that either, but if we assume, for the sake of argument, that they did, that was changed in the 1930s, when they came into communion with the Old Catholic Churches.
 
mattp0625 said:
Arresting the Catholic bishops and inserting (and promoting) your connected colleagues who are financed by heads of state? Yikes.

Seems that Iceland was even worse.
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Or in Russia. You continue to conflate validity and liceity.
 
KjetilK said:
Your ignorance speaks volumes. Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that we lost valid orders, which I do not agree with. That has nothing to do with the situation now. In the 1990s, we came into formal communion with the Church of England, and every episcopal consecration has since been done with a Anglican bishop present (including the consecration of the current Bishop of Bjørgvin, who ordained me in 2014). You might claim that the Anglicans also lost their orders. I don’t agree with that either, but if we assume, for the sake of argument, that they did, that was changed in the 1930s, when they came into communion with the Old Catholic Churches.
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Sorry, that’s just more of the same thing.

The history of Norway’s church is already posted. It was a hostile takeover.
 
JonNC said:
Again, Father K can explain AS in Norway, since he is a part of it, ordained in it.
Let me further say that, while I respect your defending the Catholic position on orders, that doesn’t mean Lutherans are, generally, concerned about that view. Would we like Catholic recognition of our orders, as we recognize yours? Sure. Do we need it? Nope. **We know our orders are valid. **

Jon
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And who can argue with that.

Catholics and Lutherans definition of apostolic succession are not the same, the reason why there is inadvertent divergence in this discussion. Both are just explaining apostolic succession from their respective perspective.

Catholics consider apostolic succession as one that is continuous, unbroken and uninterrupted line traced back to the apostles. Thus from that standpoint, Lutherans do not have apostolic succession. They were an offshoot of the Catholic Church, where they split of and formed their new church. Catholic would see their church started from that point in time/

Of course, what do you care, and rightly too, you do not have to have permission from the Catholic Church to consider your priests to have apostolic succession.

Thus I think, the nearest for Lutheran claim of apostolic succession is that an ordained priest by the Catholic Church can ordain a priest regardless whether he is given the authority/faculty or not. That was what Luther did. Despite not having any faculty anymore after being excommunicated, he continued to ordain priests.

Catholic’s definition is different nevertheless. A priest (after he becomes Bishop) must be given the faculty to administer the Sacrament of Holy Orders of which Luther did not. One can imagine the havoc it causes if any priests, especially those who disagree with the Church, can do as they like without being governed by a central authority.

So I think you guys are talking passing each other here.

Reuben
 
JonNC said:
As an American Lutheran, I can’t find anything in Father K’s post to be desjointed, or different from what I understand the terms to mean. The part of the Lutheran Tradition that I grew up in, and the part that I am currently a member of, both have their roots in Germany. In the strict, historic sense of the word, my Lutheran synod is “protestant”. The Edict of Worms and the Second Diet at Speyer are part of my synod’s history, not Father K’s.
the problem is the word has come to mean something that often doesn’t apply to Lutheranism, as we believe in infant Baptism, Baptismal regeneration, confession/Holy Absolution, and the real presence. We reject perseverance of the saints, limited atonement, and a lot of other teachings that are considered, “protestant”.

I also completely agree with Father K about the Lutheran understanding of Confession.

Jon
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Oh for crying out loud, people. OP asked a general question about her protestant friends, specifically as it relates to their understanding (or lack of understanding) of the concept of mortal sin. She wasn’t inviting nitpicking and discourse about what various protestant denominations believe or don’t believe (and the word here in the US obviously is used to refer to many more faith traditions than just Lutheranism). I was trying to find a charitable way to state that. Not that it would have mattered - seems this thread was destined to go off course, as so many here do. Apologies to OP. I hope you feel your original question was answered.
 
DAML72 said:
Oh for crying out loud, people. OP asked a general question about her protestant friends, specifically as it relates to their understanding (or lack of understanding) of the concept of mortal sin. She wasn’t inviting nitpicking and discourse about what various protestant denominations believe or don’t believe (and the word here in the US obviously is used to refer to many more faith traditions than just Lutheranism). I was trying to find a charitable way to state that. Not that it would have mattered - seems this thread was destined to go off course, as so many here do. Apologies to OP. I hope you feel your original question was answered.
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From what position do you expect me to answer from? There is no such thing as a Protestant view. I can only give a Lutheran view. Others can give theirs.

Jon
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Pretty sure that as long as you don’t willfully omit your sin in your confession, it’s forgiven, even if you forgot to mention it.
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I am a convert and came into the Church later in life so I understand your question.
I was given a beautiful prayer as an act of contrition you might want to use:

"Forgive me my sins, O Lord, forgive me my sins; the sins of my youth, the sins of my age, the sins of my soul, the sins of my body, my idle sins, my serious voluntary sins, the sins I know, the sins I do not know; the sins I have concealed so long, and which are now hidden from my memory.

I am truly sorry for every sin, mortal and venial, for all the sins of my childhood up to the present hour.

I know my sins have woulded Thy Tender Heart, O my Saviour, let me be freed from the bonds of evil through the most bitter passion of my Redeemer. Amen.

O my Jesus, forget and forgive what I have been. Amen."

Just thought to pass this on…Remember His love for you yearns to forgive and bless you abundantly!!! Prayers for you on your journey of faith.

In Christ,
mlz
 
mlz said:
I am a convert and came into the Church later in life so I understand your question.
I was given a beautiful prayer as an act of contrition you might want to use:

**"Forgive me my sins, O Lord, forgive me my sins; the sins of my youth, the sins of my age, the sins of my soul, the sins of my body, my idle sins, my serious voluntary sins, the sins I know, the sins I do not know; the sins I have concealed so long, and which are now hidden from my memory.

I am truly sorry for every sin, mortal and venial, for all the sins of my childhood up to the present hour.

I know my sins have woulded Thy Tender Heart, O my Saviour, let me be freed from the bonds of evil through the most bitter passion of my Redeemer. Amen.

O my Jesus, forget and forgive what I have been. Amen."
**
Just thought to pass this on…Remember His love for you yearns to forgive and bless you abundantly!!! Prayers for you on your journey of faith.

In Christ,
mlz
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Beautiful prayer. 👍🙂

An act of contrition prayer during a Confession can be simpler for simple reason so that that penitents would not find it is a kind of examination which they must pass. lol

My daughter could be quite nervous when we went for Confession, she would recite with me on what to say, over and over again, in the car on our way to the church.

More importantly, and this is to the OP, is our contrite heart and being sorry for the times when we fail in our Christian lives an thus want to confess the transgressions.

When we do that in the Sacrament of Confession, we know we are forgiven, not so much whether we follow the Confession format to the letter, though it is important too, of course.

Reuben
 
JonNC said:
Please, let’s not go there. the treatment of the Evangelical Catholic reformers was just as bad. The treatment of Anabaptists by Catholics and Lutherans was probably worse.
The central European Lutherans wanted to maintain AS, but the corruption within Church at that time, and the dynamics of the debate made that impossible.

Jon
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A note of interest in this post Jon, the treatment of Anabaptists…I am sure you are aware that the Lutheran Church issued a formal apology to the Anabaptists which was accepted.
 
PJM said:
WHILE THIS IS TRUE,

Nevertheless, God in order to BE-God … “Just & Fair” will make Judgment upon EACH of us based on what He has made POSSIBLE for us to know; NOT just what we choose to accept to know. That dear friends is a Critical and serious DIFFERENCE

To presume that God relies on infused - knowledge to learn His Truth is a unrealistic expectation. Amen!

Further:

To hold this tenet because the founders of the Reformation** Invented** manners easier and simpler than what God AND His Bible teach for ones possible salvation; even generations AFTER the contradictory BUT knowable positions that God [even in the OT He used priest for Sin Forgiveness.] WILL allow P’s to be judged on a totally different standard than HIS Catholic Church is at best a VERY High Risk position to take… 🤷

In EFFECT the P’s position is dictating to God exactly how He [God] MUST forgive them. It is presumptuous in the extreme to feel assured that God will actually do so… It MIGHT be possible? It certainly is not assured.

For a Catholic to claim God will understand is simply NOT a known FACT. GOD certainly did not understand or even one time accept competing Faith-beliefs ANYWHERE in the entire Bible. So I [ME} see no room for confidence in such a envisioned position.:o

Lev.5: 13 “[COLOR=“blue”]Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven
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. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

God Bless you,

Patrick

God does has His Mercy that can change everything within a moment. I agree with you that the Protestants seem to make it simpler but if you think about it they have made it harder for God. God does not want to refuse anyone who asks of Him but what do you do when Protestants do not follow the direction which God had given to His Catholic Church? Does He forget them? I do not believe so. Does God want to correct them? Of course He does because God wants all of us who are Christian to follow the design which He has given for His Catholic Church. Yes the Protestants are in error yet God still supplies them with Graces despite their errors. In the fifth prayer to the Novena of the Divine Mercy we see how Jesus approaches those who are Protestant. He is ever so patient with them hoping for that one day when they will embrace all of the truth found in the Catholic Church.
 
chimo said:
God does has His Mercy that can change everything within a moment. I agree with you that the Protestants seem to make it simpler but if you think about it they have made it harder for God. God does not want to refuse anyone who asks of Him but what do you do when Protestants do not follow the direction which God had given to His Catholic Church? Does He forget them? I do not believe so. Does God want to correct them? Of course He does because God wants all of us who are Christian to follow the design which He has given for His Catholic Church. Yes the Protestants are in error yet God still supplies them with Graces despite their errors. In the fifth prayer to the Novena of the Divine Mercy we see how Jesus approaches those who are Protestant. He is ever so patient with them hoping for that one day when they will embrace all of the truth found in the Catholic Church.
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My friend you have expressed very well my personal understanding and concerns for them. Thank you,

Easter Blessings,

PJM
 
ComplineSanFran said:
Jennifer, I am sidestepping your final question about someone converting having to confess things done as a Protestant and going to your question above.

I would be curious about how people, Roman and non-Roman Catholic, respond to it. As an Episcopalian, I am not concerned about birth control being a sin. That is not what I believe and I would think many of us would say, ‘If you want to regard it as a sin and not use it, that is certainly your choice.’ I would say the same thing to a Jew or Muslim who chooses not to eat meat from a pig. Or a Seventh Day Adventist who does not eat meat at all.

My question is if a Jew does not insist all people refrain from eating pig meat (even tho it IS Biblically forbidden), why would anyone in the Catholic Church insist that what is sinful for them is sinful for all?
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The Catholic Church defines what is sinful. Anything against the Ten Commandments and anything against the seven deadly sins. In order for them to be mortal sins, it has to be a grave matter, one has to have full knowledge, as well as full consent

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm
 
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