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PJM
Guest
Great Post, THANKS!
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C
commenter
Guest
Sometimes you do.
If Western Civilization abandons its belief that adultery is bad, or that stealing is bad…and the Catholic Church, alone, continues to teach that these things are still evil.
Well they are still evil, for everyone, not just for Catholics. If the Catholic Church stands alone affirming a specific truth, that doesn’t suddenly make it a “Catholic” truth, applying only to Catholics, like fast and abstinence regulations.
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PJM
Guest
While that is “true”; that reality by itself cannot, does not excuse serious sins.
All “men are created equal” in the SENSE of having been given by GOD, a mind, intellect and freewill precisely so that all men, can, many and are OBLIGATED to have a CORRECTLY and FULLY informed conscience.
GOD WILL BECAUSE GOD MUST pass final-judgment upon humanity based on what what HE GOD HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR US TO KNOW, NOT merely what we agree with.
The issue again is culpability. Deniability is ONLY a factor when the ignorance is NOT self-induced,
These articulated positions stem NOT from the RCC, BUT from GOD Himself
The RCC is the one who will be judged by GOD as the holder of ALL of the key’s to heaven single gate [Mt 16:15-19… “MY Church!”] & charged and protected as is NO OTHER faith or church:
Matt.28 Verses 19 to 20
[19] [YOU!] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]** teaching them to observe all that I have commanded YOU;** and lo, I am with YOU! always, to the close of the age."
John.17 Verses 17 to 20
[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. “MY Catholic Church”]
[18] As thou didst send me into the world, **so I have sent them into the world. **
[19] **And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. **
[20] "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Friends, choosing to pretend that what the RCC teaches somehow does not apply to everyone is foolish and puts one’s SOUL at GREAT Risk.
TRUTH can only be singular per defined issue; NOTHING else is even possible
Proceed with caution:thumbsup:
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
But stealing is wrong within our cultural system and government. If you steal, you are punished. That has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. The two may agree, but that is the extent of it.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Here comes more gray area…
What if that person honestly thinks you as a Catholic are part of a wicked, insidious cult from the pits of hell? But they think this out of pure ignorance and misconceptions about the Church? Of course they wont listen to a word you are saying.
Only God knows our hearts so I’ll always leave the judging up to Him.
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clem456
Guest
Civil law prohibits theft.
Civil law also prohibits murder, yet civil law allows for the murder of small unborn people.
Clearly civil law is not a reliable determinant of morality.
Observe the tragic consequences which result when human beings are subject to what amounts to politics, or majority rule, or “might makes right”.
If civil law cannot be depended on as an objective determinant of morality, what is?
Isn’t God the ultimate good, the source of all good, and the ultimate judge of it?
Where is the fullest expression of this found? It has to somewhere, or else we default to majority opinion again.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
PJm, I figured what I was saying might be misconstrued.While that is “true”; that reality by itself cannot, does not excuse serious sins.
All “men are created equal” in the SENSE of having been given by GOD, a mind, intellect and freewill precisely so that all men, can, many and are OBLIGATED to have a CORRECTLY and FULLY informed conscience.
GOD WILL BECAUSE GOD MUST pass final-judgment upon humanity based on what what HE GOD HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR US TO KNOW, NOT merely what we agree with.
The issue again is culpability. Deniability is ONLY a factor when the ignorance is NOT self-induced,
These articulated positions stem NOT from the RCC, BUT from GOD Himself
The RCC is the one who will be judged by GOD as the holder of ALL of the key’s to heaven single gate [Mt 16:15-19… “MY Church!”] & charged and protected as is NO OTHER faith or church:
Matt.28 Verses 19 to 20
[19] [YOU!] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]** teaching them to observe all that I have commanded YOU;** and lo, I am with YOU! always, to the close of the age."
John.17 Verses 17 to 20
[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. “MY Catholic Church”]
[18] As thou didst send me into the world, **so I have sent them into the world. **
[19] **And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. **
[20] "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Friends, choosing to pretend that what the RCC teaches somehow does not apply to everyone is foolish and puts one’s SOUL at GREAT Risk.
TRUTH can only be singular per defined issue; NOTHING else is even possible
Proceed with caution:thumbsup:
Never in a million years would I say sin is not sin because you didn’t know it was serious.
In the eyes of a unchanging God, it is what it is and remains such.
ACCOUNTABILITY, however, is another story and that is what I am referring to in regards to Church teaching on sin classification.
If you read the first page, the OP, who is exploring Catholicism says she is concerned about the salvation of her non-Catholic family members:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13790295&postcount=6
And I don’t think it’s fruitful to tell her they are all going to hell unless they convert. Of course we want and pray for them to convert, but if they do not the Church teaches that it is possible for those outside the Catholic faith to go to heaven.
So again, pray, evangelize, do our part and let God do the judging.
Does that sound kosher?
Pax
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Yet civil law is what you live under. It holds the cards, as it were. Laws are different in each community/country yet they are written through the guidance of the greater good for the people who live there.
Unless you call for a theocracy, or find one already existing, this is the reality of life.
We also rely on outside pressures if we believe that wrongs are being done - for instance female genital mutilation. It may the cultural norm, but in an increasing global moral code, it cannot be supported.
So again, if you want (your) God’s laws to govern, then start building a Catholic Theocracy. Look to the Middle East and see how that’s working for them.
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clem456
Guest
What greater good? How do you define “the greater good”?
Go ahead and define it so I can claim you want your own theocracy according to how you want to define your “the greater good”.
A theocracy is government-by-Church. In a theocracy the clerics pass the laws and enforce them.
A moral civil government is not necessarily a theocracy.
Everyone has their own vision of what sin is, and what a moral society looks like byu extension. When civil law is based on what the most powerful individuals want regardless of the true good, you end up with a society that gives lip service to human rights, while out of the other side of it’s mouth it allows the murder of it’s most defenseless persons.
C
commenter
Guest
There are 3 kinds of law:
Divine Law (might be imposed in Theocracy. That is not what we are talking about).
Natural Law
Positive (man made) laws.
When man-made laws go against the Natural Law, Christians have a duty to resist them to the extent they are able, and to try not to cooperate with them; and try to change the man-made Positive laws.
After WW2, the attorneys representing the Nazis argued that the Allies had no right to impose Divine Law; and that it was inaccurate to cite violations of Germany’s Positive laws, because the laws had been changed to allow all the atrocities. So they were prosecuted under violations of the Natural Law.
The Nazis, and Margaret Sanger, endorsed each other, both wanted to set aside limitations of Natural Law. Both said that “law” is whatever the current majority says it is. Today, in spite of new revelations of how racist Sanger was, her supporters are fighting to maintain her bust in the National Portrait Gallery, opposing African American civil rights leaders. That’s how deep the hatred of the Natural Law is, among the political and media elites. I wonder what would happen if the Nuremberg Trials were held today. They would be “convicted” for being unpopular, but what else?
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clem456
Guest
Everyone wants to define morality to their highest good. That’s great that a person pursues the highest good. But obviously, when there are conflicting visions of morality, not all of them can be true.
The problem is, a particular vision of morality is deemed acceptable, as long as it’s not held to be objectively true. When it’s held to be objectively true, now you are accused of “theocracy” and intolerance and all sorts of other nonsense.
Yes, it is completely incoherent.
And a recipe for disaster.
K
KjetilK
Guest
Well, a grave sin is always grave, and that is totally unrelated to the knowledge. A grave sin becomes mortal when done with full knowledge and deliberate consent.
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Graceful_Lamb
Guest
So, what you do view as sin? How do you go about reconciling your sin(s) with God?
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Graceful_Lamb
Guest
I don’t think that Catholics and Protestants are held to a different set of law (Ten Commandments). I think it is the way the different churches interpret the Commandments.the REPLY
MY COMMENTS [PJM]
So a question for both of you
Can GOD [all good things perfected] hold differing faith beliefs on the same defined issues?
Asked differently; CAN GOD hold Catholics to one set of Laws and Protestants to a different set of Laws?
Blessings,
PJM
Let us look at contraception. The CC believes it is wrong (outside of NFP). When I was Protestant (TEC), that church felt it was okay, from what I understood. They seemed to be okay with abortion, which the CC does not believe in under any circumstances.
In the Bible, God didn’t have Moses bring down the Ten Commandments and say that they only apply to Catholics and not Protestants.
Of course, the Catholic Church was not around then, and of course, the Protestants definitely weren’t either. 
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
No, Christians were not around in Moses’s time. LOL. The Ten Commandments were given in Covenant to the Jews. Actually all 613 commandments were given to the Jews. Christians choose to keep some, not keep others. If we are talking about bottom line Commandments, we should actually go with the Noahide Laws rather than the Ten Commandments. They were intended for the gentiles.I don’t think that Catholics and Protestants are held to a different set of law (Ten Commandments). I think it is the way the different churches interpret the Commandments.
Let us look at contraception. The CC believes it is wrong (outside of NFP). When I was Protestant (TEC), that church felt it was okay, from what I understood. They seemed to be okay with abortion, which the CC does not believe in under any circumstances.
In the Bible, God didn’t have Moses bring down the Ten Commandments and say that they only apply to Catholics and not Protestants.
I’m not so sure that the Law is what Christianity is focused on. It’s Christ. My personal understanding is that for the Roman Catholic Church, the list of what is required is very important. This is true in my experience for the LDS church in the same way. The list is very black and white. You must do this, you must not do this.You know, then, if you are in or not in a state of grace (or worthiness, as LDS says).
For most mainline non-Catholic churches, it is not that way at all. You mentioned TEC and it’s stance on birth control and abortion. Actually, I don’t think many people care about that, so the church doesn’t really say much of anything. It’s governing body makes statements every so often, but no where does the national Church say, ‘Every Episcopalian must refrain from practicing birth control and never have an abortion.’ It’s just not the way most mainlines work.
The Catholics have the list. The Mormons have the list. Other faith communities do things very differently.
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Graceful_Lamb
Guest
A few of the Noahide laws are in the Ten Commandments.
Yes, in the RCC what is required is important, as well as what not to do. As for being in a state of grace in the RCC, one must confess all known mortal sins to a Catholic priest and be absolved of their sins to be in a state of grace.
I have never heard TEC speak out about contraception and/or abortion. I used those examples because they were easy to distinguish between the Protestant denominations and Catholicism.
TEC basically wants people to use their conscience as a guide. It is between them and God, or at least that is the way it was when I was in TEC.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Why don’t they care about birth control and abortion? Is it your denomination’s position that they are not sinful?
How do they determine what is sinful then? Is it up to the individuals?
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
I’m not sure if it’s totally up to one’s conscience in TEC. The Gospel is taught. The Eucharist feeds us. We are commanded to love one another, care for one another, and spread God’s word. We study and learn, and are encouraged to ask questions, to learn, to understand who God is and how God lives in our lives. Guided by all these things, I think it’s pretty much assumed that one’s conscience is well formed.
In my parish, many of us have good relationships with our priests; many of us have spiritual directors. We take our spiritual lives seriously. We take our Christian community seriously.
That is true for other faith communities I know also.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
The Episcopal Church does not keep a list of what is sinful in the way that the Roman Catholic Church does. For instance, the RCC (as well as LDS) teaches that masturbation is sinful. Most Episcopalians would scratch their heads over that. It would make no sense. So no, we don’t keep lists that you would find in the Catechism.
Birth control? Head scratching over that one too, in all honesty. Abortion is left to the individual woman to decide. The Church recognizes that it is a difficult choice, but no one is monitoring those choices on behalf of the Church. If a woman needs to talk to her priest about what to do, priests are there. Remember many of our priests are women, and that helps.
How do they determine what is sinful then? Is it up to the individuals?
In our General Confession, recited at each Mass, we say:
‘We confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and we humbly repent.’
And our priest gives us absolution.
I know when I have sinned in thought, word, and deed. When I have not loved God, not loved my neighbor. I know when God is calling me to repent of certain things because I have a prayer life and I am told in the Gospel how to be holy before God.
It’s different between us, I understand that.
G
Graceful_Lamb
Guest
Actually, the first line of that prayer is “Most merciful God,”
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