Protestants and mortal sin

[Lenten_ashes]

Birth control? Head scratching over that one too, in all honesty. Abortion is left to the individual woman to decide. The Church recognizes that it is a difficult choice, but no one is monitoring those choices on behalf of the Church. If a woman needs to talk to her priest about what to do, priests are there. Remember many of our priests are women, and that helps.

Earlier I talked about how consciences were formed and I think you have demonstrated the difference I was talking about in this post.

When I was protestant I did not see any problem at all with birth control…none. And nobody in the church would ever tell us otherwise.

 

[clem456]

The Episcopal Church does not keep a list of what is sinful in the way that the Roman Catholic Church does. For instance, the RCC (as well as LDS) teaches that masturbation is sinful. Most Episcopalians would scratch their heads over that. It would make no sense. So no, we don’t keep lists that you would find in the Catechism.

Birth control? Head scratching over that one too, in all honesty. Abortion is left to the individual woman to decide. The Church recognizes that it is a difficult choice, but no one is monitoring those choices on behalf of the Church. If a woman needs to talk to her priest about what to do, priests are there. Remember many of our priests are women, and that helps.

The Catholic Church does not keep lists of sins any more than other churches do.

The Church proposes that God is good, and a person’s beatitude is to follow God.
Examples are given as to what constitutes disorder, but not every circumstance is covered, and the point is not to list the sins but to recognize that God is good and propose that good to others, as he has always revealed it, not as the Church makes it up on the fly.

Truly I wonder, how do you expect to convey the imperative to feed the hungry if you stand for no concrete morality? Why would I be convicted by the vision of a god who stand for nothing concrete?

On the one hand, you would propose some morality, right? Surely you would like to see some kind of moral structure in play?
And on the other hand, you cannot even support the most basic human right: to live and breathe. Why would anything you propose morally be taken seriously?

But there is good and bad.
The good might be that your positions will never get you persecuted cause you can default to “meh, whatever”, which offends and challenges no one. You will not get in trouble with the emperor, for sure.

The bad is that the Gospel is not shared. It’s fairly stratight-forward that we are to protect the most poor and defenseless among us. It is good that we are alive, and that goodness is larger than any equivocation with inferior goods (like a person’s right to choose :whacky.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Actually, the first line of that prayer is “Most merciful God,”

Yes, I know… it was intentional.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Earlier I talked about how consciences were formed and I think you have demonstrated the difference I was talking about in this post.

When I was protestant I did not see any problem at all with birth control…none. And nobody in the church would ever tell us otherwise.

No, because I don’t know of a single Episcopalian who believes birth control is anything but health care for the prevention of a pregnancy. It has nothing to do with the Church.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Truly I wonder, how do you expect to convey the imperative to feed the hungry if you stand for no concrete morality? Why would I be convicted by the vision of a god who stand for nothing concrete?

On the one hand, you would propose some morality, right? Surely you would like to see some kind of moral structure in play?

I don’t see how you assume that non-Catholics - or as we are speaking here, members of TEC - are immoral. Goodness.

 

[clem456]

No, because I don’t know of a single Episcopalian who believes birth control is anything but health care for the prevention of a pregnancy. It has nothing to do with the Church.

Health care is an interesting choice of words, as that is also the nice word commonly used for the murder of a child.
How does the Episcopal church feel about murder?
Does it take a stand?

Sorry for the hard questions, but your position begs them. It seems there is no consistent position over the years, since the church once believed one way on some of these issues, and then it changed.
Trying to find the consistency.

Consistency is important, if we would like to build a compassionate and just society. If we don’t have consistency, we have sentiment swaying in the popular breeze, which is good for just about nothing.

 

[PJM]

It’s definitely been a evolved process for them.

But I must say, as a protestant I did not know it was wrong. It wasn’t until I objectively examined the Catholic position that my mind changed and conscience became properly formed.

THANK YOU!

Easter Blessings,

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Health care is an interesting choice of words, as that is also the nice word commonly used for the murder of a child.
How does the Episcopal church feel about murder?
Does it take a stand?

Sorry for the hard questions, but your position begs them. It seems there is no consistent position over the years, since the church once believed one way on some of these issues, and then it changed.
Trying to find the consistency.

Consistency is important, if we would like to build a compassionate and just society. If we don’t have consistency, we have sentiment swaying in the popular breeze, which is good for just about nothing.

This isn’t about your views of abortion, nor mine, nor the Episcopal Church’s. That was stated earlier. I won’t go there with you.

Health care is what birth control is. That is why women go to their OB-GYN or men go to the drug store.

 

[PJM]

PJm, I figured what I was saying might be misconstrued.

Never in a million years would I say sin is not sin because you didn’t know it was serious.

In the eyes of a unchanging God, it is what it is and remains such.

ACCOUNTABILITY, however, is another story and that is what I am referring to in regards to Church teaching on sin classification.

If you read the first page, the OP, who is exploring Catholicism says she is concerned about the salvation of her non-Catholic family members:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13790295&postcount=6

And I don’t think it’s fruitful to tell her they are all going to hell unless they convert. Of course we want and pray for them to convert, but if they do not the Church teaches that it is possible for those outside the Catholic faith to go to heaven.

So again, pray, evangelize, do our part and let God do the judging.

Does that sound kosher?

Pax

THANK YOU sincerely!

I HOPE none of my post is “sending anyone to hell”

My goal though after reading a number of post on this string that seem to either make light of, ignore, or simply don’t KNOW God;s truth, which MUST BE singular per defined see; here on a Catholic site, it to make sure that God’s truth saw and see’s the light of day.

Birth control is NOT a “Catholic” issue as has been implied; it’s GOD"S issue and that needs to be made very clear.

I have a very active FREE internet ministry that is now in its 8th year. So I have dealt quite extensively with other faiths checking out Catholicism. I have an abiding love and CONCERN for them, which nevertheless must be founded on the truth.

Pope Benedict had this to share on that topic:

“There cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth.”

There is so very much mis-information about our Catholic beliefs and practices that we must be extremely clear on our positions and JUSTIFY them with evidence and facts [a priority of my FREE e-mailed course on Catholicism]

I supported my stated positions with both an explanation & and evidence that it is Biblically provable to be GOD’S teaching; not an invention of the RCC.

God Bless you my friend,
Patrick

 

[clem456]

This isn’t about your views of abortion, nor mine, nor the Episcopal Church’s. That was stated earlier. I won’t go there with you.

Health care is what birth control is. That is why women go to their OB-GYN or men go to the drug store.

You say you don’t want to go here and there, but you do go here and there. I mean, here we are talking about what sin is and is not. We have a radically different concept of morality.
Is it a difficult conversation?

You might want to flesh out your logic a little, how birth control is “health care”. Is the couple suffering from a disease? Will the couple be unhealthy if they conceive (sometimes this is a possibility, but not in a general way to categorize it as health care). Is the birth control good for the couple, like taking vitamins? A mountain of health care research is proof that some “birth control” at least is in fact really really bad for women.

So yes, how is birth control “health care”?
As an analogy, the word health care is also misapplied to abortion, I suppose because a doctor is seen. Call me confused.
Dr Mengele might agree with you, he is a doctor, and lots of people went to see him as well.
Health care. Yes. Nice words. Takes the edge right out of the issues. If a doctor is involved it’s only personal. Sacred space that health care…

Kinda like:
Poor people should work harder to feed themselves. They are not doing their fair share. No work, no food.

We can call that “being practical and prudent” instead of using the word “gross negligence”.
You can’t really tell us we should not be practical and prudent.

 

[clem456]

I don’t see how you assume that non-Catholics - or as we are speaking here, members of TEC - are immoral. Goodness.

It seems to me your outrage is more than a little disingenuous given the post I responded to here, which proposes, just that: immorality.

…
Birth control? Head scratching over that one too, in all honesty. Abortion is left to the individual woman to decide. The Church recognizes that it is a difficult choice, but no one is monitoring those choices on behalf of the Church. If a woman needs to talk to her priest about what to do, priests are there.
…

With this statement of what amounts to non-morality, how are you surprised that someone would note it, and discuss it for what it is?
How can you be shocked?

It seems the preferred tactic is to dump the stuff in the middle of the room, and then be shocked that others notice.
How dare we !!!

 

[PJM]

I don’t think that Catholics and Protestants are held to a different set of law (Ten Commandments). I think it is the way the different churches interpret the Commandments.

Let us look at contraception. The CC believes it is wrong (outside of NFP). When I was Protestant (TEC), that church felt it was okay, from what I understood. They seemed to be okay with abortion, which the CC does not believe in under any circumstances.

In the Bible, God didn’t have Moses bring down the Ten Commandments and say that they only apply to Catholics and not Protestants. Of course, the Catholic Church was not around then, and of course, the Protestants definitely weren’t either.

Thank you,

You did a good job of making your points

Allow me to begin my reply with a question: WWJD… What WOULD Jesus Do?
Did Jesus overlook sin, or make excuses for it? No, when forgiving sins as He always did, He said cf. “GO and sin No-More.”

We live in different times and circumstances, with perhaps a higher degree of peer-influence. It’s easy now to think that because everyone else is doing it, it must be OK for Me to do it too. BUT is that thee [always singular per defined issue] truth? No, it’s not.
The culprit again is “culpability” = the degree of guilt based on what we know AND what we can and ought to know; what we CAN know,

Contraception on a broad scale is a recent innovation of the 20th Century. Prior to that and aligning somewhat with the rising divorce rate, spurned on my the “Women’s Lib” movement and the 60’s “free-sex” attitudes; morality and older-established values were ignored, overridden, and overturned in favor of what remains evident today; the age of “MESISM.” It’s MY body, it’s ONLY wrong if I say that its wrong; don’t judge me and I won’t judge you either.

Your second point is a WOW!

Abortion is murder

Thou shalt not KILL is the 5th Commandment [God’s Law, not a Catholic invention], so the fact that ANY Christian church seems OK with it is alarming. Such a position clearly holds that that pastor believes that he [or she?] knows more and OR knows better than does GOD Himself.

I find it not too unusual that “the RCC” positions are held as being solely of their OWN making or choosing. And that too is frightening; because as the direct and exclusive holders of ALL of the keys to heaven gate; and being directly and exclusively CHARGED with Cf. “YOU! Go and teach the world ALL that I have taught to YOU,” this presumption to “Bible believing Christians” is scary.

Mt 16:18-19: “ [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, [singular] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19]And I will give to YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever YOU shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever YOU shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”

Mt 28:19-20 [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

In my prior post I was careful to provide both Logical and Biblical evidence of the teaching-positions commanded by OUR-God.

God Bless you
PJM

 

[PJM]

The Episcopal Church does not keep a list of what is sinful in the way that the Roman Catholic Church does. For instance, the RCC (as well as LDS) teaches that masturbation is sinful. Most Episcopalians would scratch their heads over that. It would make no sense. So no, we don’t keep lists that you would find in the Catechism.

And WHY NOT may I ask?

Is truth [always singular per defined issue] different for them than for Catholics? **If so, on what basis? **

Birth control? Head scratching over that one too, in all honesty. Abortion is left to the individual woman to decide. The Church recognizes that it is a difficult choice, but no one is monitoring those choices on behalf of the Church. If a woman needs to talk to her priest about what to do, priests are there. Remember many of our priests are women, and that helps.

MY injected comments [PJM]
PLEASE EXCUSE my bluntness here, but it seems to me to be necessary:shrug:

So a [ANY] “Christian” church leaves it up to their FLOCK to determine if MURDER is a sin? The 5th Commandment: YOU shall NOT Kill is GOD"S Law, not an invention of the RCC.

How do they determine what is sinful then? Is it up to the individuals?

REPLY:

In our General Confession, recited at each Mass, we say:

‘We confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and we humbly repent.’

And our priest gives us absolution.

I know when I have sinned in thought, word, and deed. When I have not loved God, not loved my neighbor. I know when God is calling me to repent of certain things because I have a prayer life and I am told in the Gospel how to be holy before God

.

As a Bible believing “Christian Church” how do you reconcile this with this:shrug:

John 20: 19-23
[19] Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. [20] And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.[21] He said therefore to them again:

Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

REPLY
It’s different between us, I understand that.

I personally struggle with the concept that TRUTH can be what ever a person decides for themselves it is. For ME that is incomprehensible:shrug:

God Bless you both!
PJM

 

[Lenten_ashes]

THANK YOU sincerely!

I HOPE none of my post is “sending anyone to hell”

My goal though after reading a number of post on this string that seem to either make light of, ignore, or simply don’t KNOW God;s truth, which MUST BE singular per defined see; here on a Catholic site, it to make sure that God’s truth saw and see’s the light of day.

Birth control is NOT a “Catholic” issue as has been implied; it’s GOD"S issue and that needs to be made very clear.

I have a very active FREE internet ministry that is now in its 8th year. So I have dealt quite extensively with other faiths checking out Catholicism. I have an abiding love and CONCERN for them, which nevertheless must be founded on the truth.

Pope Benedict had this to share on that topic:

“There cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth.”

There is so very much mis-information about our Catholic beliefs and practices that we must be extremely clear on our positions and JUSTIFY them with evidence and facts [a priority of my FREE e-mailed course on Catholicism]

I supported my stated positions with both an explanation & and evidence that it is Biblically provable to be GOD’S teaching; not an invention of the RCC.

God Bless you my friend,
Patrick

Absolutely, the truth should not and can not be compromised in favor of political correctness or whatever.

I remember as a protestant hearing how rigid the Catholic faith was, sending everybody to hell for missing Mass so they could rake in big profits…so many misconceptions are out there.

Then i read the Catechism and see that it’s hogwash, the Church has a very rational position on judgment. Much better than some fundamentalists who think you are automatically going to hell just because you never heard the Gospel before. And that’s all I am doing, telling the OP that the Church says it’s possible for non-Catholics to go to heaven. How likely is it? No idea, but it is possible.

Pax

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by ComplineSanFran View Post
No, because I don’t know of a single Episcopalian who believes birth control is anything but health care for the prevention of a pregnancy. It has nothing to do with the Church

.

Health care is an interesting choice of words, as that is also the nice word commonly used for the murder of a child.
How does the Episcopal church feel about murder?
Does it take a stand?

Sorry for the hard questions, but your position begs them. It seems there is no consistent position over the years, since the church once believed one way on some of these issues, and then it changed.
Trying to find the consistency.

Consistency is important, if we would like to build a compassionate and just society. If we don’t have consistency, we have sentiment swaying in the popular breeze, which is good for just about nothing.

Our FRIEND! “ComplineSanFran” lives in Americas MECA of liberalism. No doubt influences the position of the POSTEr and that church. STILL its SHOCKING!

Let US pray for them

PJM

 

[clem456]

.

Our FRIEND! “ComplineSanFran” lives in Americas MECA of liberalism. No doubt influences the position of the POSTEr and that church. STILL its SHOCKING!

Let US pray for them

PJM

I have no problem with San Francisco or classical liberalism. Great city and people like everywhere else. It’s not about San Francisco.
The Gospel should be proclaimed liberally with passion. And truthfully.

Moral relativism is a problem. When a church can talk about social justice out of one side of the mouth and look the other way in the face of gross injustice to the defenseless, how can it be taken seriously? All Christians do it to one extent or the other, but not all church’s waffle in their actual teaching.

And also, this poster has a history of taking cheap shots at the Catholic Church, which hey, we’re all adults and we can take it, but let’s not be shocked when people want to respond to it.

 

[PJM]

Originally **Posted by ComplineSanFran **View Post
This isn’t about your views of abortion, nor mine, nor the Episcopal Church’s. That was stated earlier. I won’t go there with you.

Health care is what birth control is. That is why women go to their OB-GYN or men go to the drug store.

The REPLY

;13806857]You say you don’t want to go here and there, but you do go here and there. I mean, here we are talking about what sin is and is not. We have a radically different concept of morality.
Is it a difficult conversation?

You might want to flesh out your logic a little, how birth control is “health care”. Is the couple suffering from a disease? Will the couple be unhealthy if they conceive (sometimes this is a possibility, but not in a general way to categorize it as health care). Is the birth control good for the couple, like taking vitamins? A mountain of health care research is proof that some “birth control” at least is in fact really really bad for women.

So yes, how is birth control “health care”?
As an analogy, the word health care is also misapplied to abortion, I suppose because a doctor is seen. Call me confused.
Dr Mengele might agree with you, he is a doctor, and lots of people went to see him as well.
Health care. Yes. Nice words. Takes the edge right out of the issues. If a doctor is involved it’s only personal. Sacred space that health care…

Kinda like:
Poor people should work harder to feed themselves. They are not doing their fair share. No work, no food.

We can call that “being practical and prudent” instead of using the word “gross negligence”.
You can’t really tell us we should not be practical and prudent.

**Dear friend from San Fran [a beautiful city BTW[

PLEASE read and comment on my POST # 115 & 119 on page 8 of this string[/COLOR]

God Bless you,
Patrick**

 

[PJM]

No, because I don’t know of a single Episcopalian who believes birth control is anything but health care for the prevention of a pregnancy. It has nothing to do with the Church.

AGAIN I BEY You read My POST #115 & 119

Your position is not based on reality and facts:shrug:

God Bless you,

PJM

 

[PJM]

Absolutely, the truth should not and can not be compromised in favor of political correctness or whatever.

I remember as a protestant hearing how rigid the Catholic faith was, sending everybody to hell for missing Mass so they could rake in big profits…so many misconceptions are out there.

Then i read the Catechism and see that it’s hogwash, the Church has a very rational position on judgment. Much better than some fundamentalists who think you are automatically going to hell just because you never heard the Gospel before. And that’s all I am doing, telling the OP that the Church says it’s possible for non-Catholics to go to heaven. How likely is it? No idea, but it is possible.

Pax

Here for those who may not know is what the RCC actually reaches on that topic:

From our Catholic Catechism

#1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

#846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door**. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. END QUOTES

Easter Blessings,

PJM

 

[ComplineSanFran]

And also, this poster has a history of taking cheap shots at the Catholic Church, which hey, we’re all adults and we can take it,

I take cheap shots? I am so sorry if that is how you read my postings. I have enormous respect for the Roman Catholic Church. It gave great joy to me to see our two heads (the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury) meet and pray together, as they have done for generations.

Because we disagree on numerous issues (and the Church has always had disagreement within it), it doesn’t mean that there is animosity. Quite the contrary! We are all part of Christ’s Body.