Protestants and our lady of Guadalupe

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Protestants have a kneejerk reaction to something that is flavored Catholic. Just as Catholics have the same reaction to something that is flavored Protestant.
That’s just the way it is.

So it may be something very impressive but because it is in the other camp, the interest in the subject wanes. So the person then loses interest and thinks that there can’t be much to it tho there may be something in it.

Each has a suspecion of the other’s find.

And if it is found to be true and dazzaling, each does not really want to know and then face something that has to be explained away or justified. Nobody likes that.

So maybe its really that these types of things only have their impact on the group that found them.

Having said all of that, there will be a few from the other camp who will sit up and take notice anyway.

A lot has to do with human nature.

However there were thousands of indians who did take Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour thru the picture of his mother on this tilma.
 
Fred, I agree with the last part, about the net effect of this picture being good.

I think you underestimate the willingness of people to sincerely consider something like this, though. I’m not alone in seriously trying to understand why this picture is believed to be miraculous by some. I’ve really looked into over several years, as I think it’s a beautiful and serene image of Mary. But, after doing the best research I could over the years, it continues to appear to me as it originally did— a lovely painting with historical precedent.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Fred, I agree with the last part, about the net effect of this picture being good.

I think you underestimate the willingness of people to sincerely consider something like this, though. I’m not alone in seriously trying to understand why this picture is believed to be miraculous by some. I’ve really looked into over several years, as I think it’s a beautiful and serene image of Mary. But, after doing the best research I could over the years, it continues to appear to me as it originally did— a lovely painting with historical precedent.
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Who painted it? Why has the tilma survived 500 years with a shelf life of 20? Why does the paint used in the picture come from roses that are not available in Mexico? How did the artist paint a reflection in the eyes of Mary? Why is there no evidence of brush strokes on the painting.? What does the picture represent?
 
MJCamp said:
Who painted it? Why has the tilma survived 500 years with a shelf life of 20? Why does the paint used in the picture come from roses that are not available in Mexico? How did the artist paint a reflection in the eyes of Mary? Why is there no evidence of brush strokes on the painting.? What does the picture represent?
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Logic helps here:

A) All paintings by man have visible brush strokes (Pie is an artist so I know this fact)

B) This one does not (experts examining it have said so)

C) Therefore it was not painted by man.

Unless you want to argue that that b) is in error, that the Catholic Church is involved in a massive coverup, c) is the only conclusion, ink-jet printing alien theories aside.

PnP
 
Porknpie said:
Logic helps here:

A) All paintings by man have visible brush strokes (Pie is an artist so I know this fact)

B) This one does not (experts examining it have said so)

C) Therefore it was not painted by man.

Unless you want to argue that that b) is in error, that the Catholic Church is involved in a massive coverup, c) is the only conclusion, ink-jet printing alien theories aside.

PnP
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I think I’ll be home this evening, and if so I’ll start a reply more fully tonight. Respectfully, though, I’ll say now that A isn’t true at all, and B has conflicting accounts.

I’m a professional artist myself, too, PorknPie, academically trained at the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts in Philadelphia (the oldest art school in the US and among the most respected). I don’t bring that up to be obnoxious or boastful, but just to indicate that I’m well-versed in the many older and newer varieties of painting mediums. I’ve stayed out of this thread out for a number of reasons, but I’m sorry, I can’t let that statement go unchallenged as a fact when it isn’t one. I don’t think that does anyone a favor.

I’'ll probably be going into too much boring detail, but I want to explain clearly how various types of paint work so I’m not just asking people to take my word for it.

It may help if I start with something most people will have used themselves even if they don’t do artwork. Think of painting a piece of wood (like a section of interior house molding or a cabinet). The wood in this case is the “ground” (which I’ll later compare to the fabric of a painting wherein that fabric becomes the ground). You may prime it or not, with a clear or pigmented primer. The paint or stain you’ll use next is made up of a medium(s) and pigment(s). The medium (a carrier for the pigments) may be relatively thick, like linseed oil, alkyd, latex, or casein. Or it may be very thin like the carrier for most stains and dyes.

On top of the ground/wood you might use a viscous paint like oil, alkyd, latex, milkpaint, etc. Now, with these mediums, because they have more viscosity (and for other eye-glazing-over reasons I’ll skip here) it would be hard to paint without any visible brush strokes, because the thicker medium keeps the pigment on top of the ground/wood. Painting without visible brushstrokes can be done by employing a wet-in-wet technique, but usually brushstrokes are still slightly visible. Later, that paint on the surface may flake off and you even may strip it off at some point.

On the other hand, you may use a stain or dye instead to color the wood. In that case, the medium is usually thin like water and it sinks into the wood with no visible brushstokes unless you’re sloppy. For dyes and some stain pigments, the pigment particles themselves are so minute that they can fit into the pores of the wood. You’d have to remove actual wood to remove the color, unlike the thicker paints. They won’t flake off, and if the pigments are made from stable materials, they should not fade significantly.

Translating the above to another ground–fabric in the tilma’s case–will take more boring explanation which I’ll try to get to tonight. For now, I’ll say that there are numerous ancient and modern mediums and painting techniques which have both viscous paint-like and thin stain-like properties.
 
I had just finished writing this response out when my new computer came on with a message and when I canceled it, I lost post.

Abidewithme, you always come across as a very thoughtful and compassionate person…

The tilma is made up of cactus fibers and such tilmas lasted only 20 years. So there must be some scientific explanation of why the tilma has lasted for 400 years but no one can come up with an answer.

EWTN TV is showing a documentary on Mary of Guadalupe’s imagery, I think, December 18, eastern time about 8 pm…if you can verify from your own sources, you may find it insightful.

I have heard priests tell me for years that they liked Mary’s charism of Guadalupe the best and I did not know much about this charism of hers until about 23 years ago…

Bishop Zumarraga, on the road to canonization, was deeply afflicted by the Spanish colonialists’ treatment of the Indians and there were few conversions. So he prayed to Mary for a sign, roses in December, signifying his prayers would finally be heard. S Juan Diego, native Indian who travelled 13 miles daily to Mass, was chosen by Mary to come to him.

But after the first visit, he took another path home, but she encountered him there – at the site of the ancient Aztec goddess of peace. She told him to come up to the mound and pick roses there, this being D ecember, to give to the bishop.

When he brought the roses to the bishop, the tilma fully opened, dropping roses on the floor, and scientists now have studied the tilma in great detail. In Mary’s eyes, are the reflection, it seems, of Juan, the bishop and an attendant.

And when the tilma was carried out to the population, the Indians immediately converted, and there came about peace and reciprocity between the colonialists and the Indians.

The tilma itself is now revealing many more symbols that speak to to us today, as afterall, when she appeared, she was facing north, implying her concern for us as well.

She stood before and blocked the light of the Sun God, and cross around her neck. Montezuma had a dream of ships coming in that would bear the cross on its sails. Her belt was above her waistline, implying she was bearing Jesus, bringing Him forth to bloom in faith in the hearts of all people. She stood on the moon, the god of darkness who demanded human sacrifice so the Sun God could return the next day. And St. Michael held up her gown at her feet.

So for us today, we are also seeing microscopically the images of demons under her feet, ‘she who crushes the head of the serpent’, and the stars in her gown are scientifically proven to represent the stars in the sky that night of the apparition represented in her gown.

Her common artistic theme is the figure 8, sign of perfection, in the image’s lines and format. She has beautiful roses of sharon upon her gown. Her eyes are half closed representing her own modesty.

I read Jimmy Holloway’s book on the imagery in Mary’s tilma so many years ago ,and he went on for many pages of what he saw in this image.

So EWTN may be a good channel to see more about the image of Guadalupe. There is another documentary, Spain and Mexico’s connection, and how it was fulfillled in Guadalupe, called ‘Rivers of Light’ a documentary I would like to purchase some day. It is very beautifully done and begins with the legend of St. James the Greater apostle going to Spain and coming back out with hardly any conversions.

Roses in December…beautiful image of answered prayers.

God bless you.
 
Thanks for your post, Kathleen. I’ve read the story several times, and I do think it’s a beautiful story, rich in symbolism for us all. And the face of the image of Mary is very moving.

After I posted this morning, I saw a thread about tomorrow being the Feast Day of Our Lady of Guadalupe for the US. I have a lot of respect for the role of OLG in Catholic culture, and given the timing, I’m not willing to get into this topic as an artistic and scientific discussion from my perspective of the tilma as a wonderful but not miraculous painting. If I’m going to go into this at all, I think I should be pretty thorough in bringing my thoughts up for discussion…but, again, not right now. I realize this image is sort of sacred ground for many, and I know I wouldn’t want someone traipsing around and poking about over precious territory of mine right before a day that celebrates that precious thing. (Plus I had to work very late and I’m really stupid tired, which is never a good thing when I try to discuss something. :o)
 
AbideWithMe said:
I think I’ll be home this evening, and if so I’ll start a reply more fully tonight. Respectfully, though, I’ll say now that A isn’t true at all, and B has conflicting accounts.

I’m a professional artist myself, too, PorknPie, academically trained at the Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts in Philadelphia (the oldest art school in the US and among the most respected). I don’t bring that up to be obnoxious or boastful, but just to indicate that I’m well-versed in the many older and newer varieties of painting mediums. I’ve stayed out of this thread out for a number of reasons, but I’m sorry, I can’t let that statement go unchallenged as a fact when it isn’t one. I don’t think that does anyone a favor.

I’'ll probably be going into too much boring detail, but I want to explain clearly how various types of paint work so I’m not just asking people to take my word for it.

It may help if I start with something most people will have used themselves even if they don’t do artwork. Think of painting a piece of wood (like a section of interior house molding or a cabinet). The wood in this case is the “ground” (which I’ll later compare to the fabric of a painting wherein that fabric becomes the ground). You may prime it or not, with a clear or pigmented primer. The paint or stain you’ll use next is made up of a medium(s) and pigment(s). The medium (a carrier for the pigments) may be relatively thick, like linseed oil, alkyd, latex, or casein. Or it may be very thin like the carrier for most stains and dyes.

On top of the ground/wood you might use a viscous paint like oil, alkyd, latex, milkpaint, etc. Now, with these mediums, because they have more viscosity (and for other eye-glazing-over reasons I’ll skip here) it would be hard to paint without any visible brush strokes, because the thicker medium keeps the pigment on top of the ground/wood. Painting without visible brushstrokes can be done by employing a wet-in-wet technique, but usually brushstrokes are still slightly visible. Later, that paint on the surface may flake off and you even may strip it off at some point.

On the other hand, you may use a stain or dye instead to color the wood. In that case, the medium is usually thin like water and it sinks into the wood with no visible brushstokes unless you’re sloppy. For dyes and some stain pigments, the pigment particles themselves are so minute that they can fit into the pores of the wood. You’d have to remove actual wood to remove the color, unlike the thicker paints. They won’t flake off, and if the pigments are made from stable materials, they should not fade significantly.

Translating the above to another ground–fabric in the tilma’s case–will take more boring explanation which I’ll try to get to tonight. For now, I’ll say that there are numerous ancient and modern mediums and painting techniques which have both viscous paint-like and thin stain-like properties.
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Abide,

Do you believe that Mexican artists had the know how to do what you are describing 400 years ago? For someone to have done so as you are describing, would it not have been a skill or practice that was developed over many years? If so, are there other examples of this technique from this time period? Understand that you may not know…

That said…the tilma has survived 400 years and a bomb blast that destroyed the church holding it. And the Church has declared the apparition worth of belief. My sense is that you are arguing with management. 🙂

PnP
 
Marie5890 said:
Has modern day science been allowed to investigate the tilma? If so, what did the investigation show?
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There has never been a full modern investigation, a few minor investigations here and there, but nothing as complete as the Shroud of Turin.
 
Understood, Abidewithme, and I have had to take a few months off from here.

I think PorknPie just brought forward, the essentials…that such artistry was unknown among the Aztecs. I personally studied the various Indian art forms going back before the arrival of the Spaniards, and cannot find anything comparable.

The Aztec means of communication was the pictograph. And this is why the image was so easily communicable to the people.

I was so taken by Mary of Guadalupe as missionary, that I began to study Mexican history going back to ancient Indian tribes who existed long before the Aztecs, these latter Indians coming to this lake where they began their civilization as late as the 1300’s.

The Conquistadors actually had great admiration and respect for the Aztecs, – their floating gardens, for example…barge like man made boats that had gardens upon them. The Aztecs loved flowers, and considered it genteel to carry flowers a certain way in their hands. The Aztec priests who did the human sacrifice were well liked and venerated by the people.

Anyway, I would recommend at this point that forthcoming program on EWTN next week.
 
Cat said:
My husband and I are converts to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism.

There are lots of ways to witness to Protestants about Christ and Catholicism.

**I would say that using the Marian Apparitions is probably not the best approach to use with most Evangelical Protestants.
**

I know that many Catholics love, adore, and cherish Mary as their own Mother, and are devoted to seeking her intercession, venerating her image, and honoring her by wearing medals, scapulars, etc. But this mindset is so incredibly foreign to Evangelical Protestants, that you will probably do more harm than good trying to explain this Marian love to them. Many Evangelical Protestants see the Marian devotion as conflicting with devotion to the Lord Jesus, Who, in their opinion, should be our All in All, our sole passion, our Supreme Love. They will be not only offended, but horrified by the extent of some Catholics’ Marian devotion. They don’t understand it and probably never will until they become Catholic, and even then, many ex-Evangelical Protestants never enter into Marian devotion with the enthusiasm of cradle Catholics.

Keep in mind that the Catholic Church does not require devotion to Mary. It is an “extra”–one of the treasures available to Catholics. But it is not a requirement to be a “good Catholic.”

Evangelical Protestants have a hard time understanding that spending time with Mary is one of the best ways to grow closer to Jesus. That simply does not compute with them.

The best way to witness to Evangelical Protestants is to have a solid knowledge of the Bible and apologetics. The Bible is the Sole Source of knowledge of God for most Evangelical Protestants, and they will listen to someone who knows the Bible.

The other way to witness to Evangelical Protestants is to live a life of Christian good works and piety. The faithfulness of Catholics to protecting the unborn in the United States has convinced many Evangelical Protestants of the truth of Catholicism.
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That was very well said and expresses the trepidation many former Protestants feel when learning about different miraculous events and the various objects used to commemorate them. While many people have seen little things happening in their lives that show God’s hand, it is hard for some people to see them objectified into something tangible. It almost feels like such an event is too holy to cheapen with man-made things. However, I also understand that such events may have been entirely forgotten if not for some tangible way to remember them. They serve to inspire and remind people. Overall, that must be a good thing.
 
JonNC said:
Hi Steve,
I hadn’t planned on posting this thread until I read that other posters comments, largely because I kind of agree with what House Harkonnen said. I don’t think it unusual for Lutherans, at least confessional Lutherans, to find this not particularly compelling. That’s not to say we dismiss it out of hand, just that it isn’t part of our religious culture. If Catholics are led to a strengthening in faith by this, it is fine by me.

Jon
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I have several customers in my Catholic store who are Lutheran. One of them is very attached to Our Lady of Guadalupe. Her favorite.

The other Lutherans who shop in my store buy Catholic Bibles for their grandchildren. We always have great conversations.
 
Miriam1947 said:
I have several customers in my Catholic store who are Lutheran. One of them is very attached to Our Lady of Guadalupe. Her favorite.

The other Lutherans who shop in my store buy Catholic Bibles for their grandchildren. We always have great conversations.
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On the first, I think that’s great. Lutherans have that freedom of personal piety in regard the things such as this. If he/she is strengthened in faith, Amen!

On the bookstore, I think you’ll find that Lutherans, at least well-catechized Lutherans, would much prefer to be in a Catholic bookstore than the typical Christian bookstore. For example, try to find a crucifix in a Christian bookstore. Some might have them, maybe. Its good to see American Lutherans returning to the use of the 73 book Bible.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
On the bookstore, I think you’ll find that Lutherans, at least well-catechized Lutherans, would much prefer to be in a Catholic bookstore than the typical Christian bookstore. For example, try to find a crucifix in a Christian bookstore. Some might have them, maybe. Its good to see American Lutherans returning to the use of the 73 book Bible.

Jon
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Amen to that! My library contains a good number of books purchased in Catholic bookstores.
 
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