Protestants and our lady of Guadalupe

[Kliska]

Indeed.

But, again, there is no “ONLY” there. That has been added by you.

It is obvious we are not going to agree on what an imperative command means. If you’d like me to say that there is no only there; there isn’t. If I tell a student to “turn in their test in to me” when they are done. You better believe they better be turning it in to me; it is a direct imperative command with consequences if they do not turn it in to me; literally me.

So, then, it appears that your paradigm is that if it Scripture is silent, it’s forbidden?

I’ve answered this at least 3 times lol Not necessarily. Scripture is silent on fruititarianism; it isn’t mentioned in scripture, fruititarianism isn’t forbidden. That’s not the question. Not worshiping Bahá’u’lláh is something not found in scripture, but the teaching applies, and is thus forbidden.

 

[PRmerger]

Again, quite the contrary; we object because we see that forbidden.

It is forbidden to worship anyone/thing other than God, but there is no verse, at all, that states that we are forbidden to pray to those who are alive in Christ and ask for their intercession.

“Praying to” does not equal worship.

 

[Kliska]

Really? You don’t belong to a church? Or if you do, you do not pray communally with the Body of Christ?

I’m going to be jumped on here, aren’t I? lol

I’ve said elsewhere; no I’m not an official member of any organized church. Where I attend (different congregations) I will sometimes recite a shared rote prayer with the others, such as the Our Father, but I honestly, for myself, don’t consider it praying for me. If we are all invited to bow our heads, I bow my head, but don’t pray. If the pastor is praying, I bow out of respect.

There have only been a few people I have been around that do not change the way they pray or what they say depending on the audience. I get fairly hotheaded when someone is praying to God but are actually preaching to the people at the same time. That may be a human failing of mine, and perhaps is not charitable.

I do consider, again, blessings, thanksgivings, etc… to be different than beseeching.

 

[PRmerger]

It is obvious we are not going to agree on what an imperative command means. If you’d like me to say that there is no only there; there isn’t. If I tell a student to “turn in their test in to me” when they are done. You better believe they better be turning it in to me; it is a direct imperative command with consequences if they do not turn it in to me; literally me.

Then, Kliska, you must be consistent and say that you have been commanded to pray ONLY in a closet.

I’ve answered this at least 3 times lol Not necessarily. Scripture is silent on fruititarianism; it isn’t mentioned in scripture, fruititarianism isn’t forbidden. That’s not the question. Not worshiping Bahá’u’lláh is something not found in scripture, but the teaching applies, and is thus forbidden.

Then how do you know which paradigm to apply?

Does it not appear to you that Protestant churches seem to apply that paradigm willy-nilly based on their own pre-conceived ideas, or those of their fallible pastor?

That is, when there is a practice that a pastor does that’s not found in Scripture he or she will say, “Well, there’s nothing in Scripture about it, so we are free to do this!”

But when there is a practice that a pastor personally objects to that’s not found in Scripture, he or she will say, “Well, there’s nothing in Scripture about it, so they ought not be doing that.”

That doesn’t seem to be a judicious application of Biblical principles, no?

 

[Kliska]

It is forbidden to worship anyone/thing other than God, but there is no verse, at all, that states that we are forbidden to pray to those who are alive in Christ and ask for their intercession.

“Praying to” does not equal worship.

As I said, I’m not going there, but thank you for your reply.

 

[Kliska]

Then, Kliska, you must be consistent and say that you have been commanded to pray ONLY in a closet.

That is when and where I ask The Father for things, yes, other than attempting living a life of praying without ceasing, such as Paul.

That doesn’t seem to be a judicious application of Biblical principles, no?

Again, Paul is clear that there are some things up to the conscience of the individual.

 

[PRmerger]

As I said, I’m not going there, but thank you for your reply.

I know you’re not going there, dear Kliska. But there is really nothing more to say on that. The discussion has segued into another tributary.

Suffice it to say:
Worship is worship. When we pray to saints we are not worshipping.

We are doing nothing more and nothing less than utilizing a heavenly Prayer Chain.

 

[concretecamper]

As I said, I’m not going there, but thank you for your reply.

Mark chapter 2

1 - AND again he entered into Capharnaum after some days.

2 - And it was heard that he was in the house, and many came together, so that there was no room; no, not even at the door; and he spoke to them the word.

3 - And they came to him, bringing one sick of the palsy, who was carried by four.

4 - And when they could not offer him unto him for the multitude, they uncovered the roof where he was; and opening it, they let down the bed wherein the man sick of the palsy lay.

5 - And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.

So, Jesus applied the faith of the paralytic’s friends to the paralytic and forgave his sins. So can God apply the faith of a saint and grant me grace that I myself would not have otherwise deserved?

 

[Kliska]

Mark chapter 2

1 - AND again he entered into Capharnaum after some days.

2 - And it was heard that he was in the house, and many came together, so that there was no room; no, not even at the door; and he spoke to them the word.

3 - And they came to him, bringing one sick of the palsy, who was carried by four.

4 - And when they could not offer him unto him for the multitude, they uncovered the roof where he was; and opening it, they let down the bed wherein the man sick of the palsy lay.

5 - And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.

So, Jesus applied the faith of the paralytic’s friends to the paralytic and forgave his sins. So can God apply the faith of a saint and grant me grace that I myself would not have otherwise deserved?

That’s not the issue at hand, and can’t be applied here to the conversation. But, He saw their collective faith, that doesn’t exclude the man that was sick. And the man that was sick wasn’t praying to someone not physically alive on the earth, neither were his friends. No one deserves grace, that is why it is unmerited favor.

Jesus performed many miracles, I don’t dispute that in the least.

 

[concretecamper]

That’s not the issue at hand, and can’t be applied here to the conversation. But, He saw their collective faith, that doesn’t exclude the man that was sick. And the man that was sick wasn’t praying to someone not physically alive on the earth, neither were his friends. No one deserves grace, that is why it is unmerited favor.

Jesus performed many miracles, I don’t dispute that in the least.

You are dodging the question. Did Jesus apply the faith of his friends in order to forgive his sins? A yes or no will do.

 

[Kliska]

You are dodging the question. Did Jesus apply the faith of his friends in order to forgive his sins? A yes or no will do.

My answer is the text: " And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee." He saw their faith (collectively) and forgave the sick man his sins.

Whatever point you are trying to make has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

 

[concretecamper]

My answer is the text: " And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee." He saw their faith (collectively) and forgave the sick man his sins.

Whatever point you are trying to make has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Haha…I guess I would not answer either.

 

[Kliska]

Haha…I guess Iwould not answer either.

Yeah… ok.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe that’s another difference; if they are there and they care, and their prayers are efficacious I sure hope they aren’t waiting on me. In other words, they don’t need my go ahead to pray for me.

You are absolutely correct. They don’t need your permission, and I am certain that they are indeed storming heaven with prayers for you right now.

However, God gives us the dignity of causality–the dignity of actually causing events through our actions. And if you ask for their prayers, you will effect (and here I do mean “effect”, not "affect) its end.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m going to be jumped on here, aren’t I? lol

I’ve said elsewhere; no I’m not an official member of any organized church. Where I attend (different congregations) I will sometimes recite a shared rote prayer with the others, such as the Our Father,

So then you are not praying ONLY in a closet.

QED.

 

[PRmerger]

Again, Paul is clear that there are some things up to the conscience of the individual.

Which things?

 

[PRmerger]

I suppose that a similar question could be posed to you by another Christian. How would you respond to this: “Is it wrong that I demonstrate my respect for Jesus alone by limiting my Bible reading to the words of Christ only?”

I know the thread is moving quickly, but would you mind, Kliska, answering this question?

I am curious as to how you would address a person who says that he wishes to elevate his relationship with Christ by reading ONLY the words of Christ in the Scripture.

 

[Kliska]

So then you are not praying ONLY in a closet.

In the way I understand that command, yes

QED.

Perhaps.

Let me ask a question; do you believe that the praying Paul was talking about; praying without ceasing is formed, verbal, prayer every hour of every day? Or do you thing he is meaning something more… existentially oriented?

 

[Kliska]

I know the thread is moving quickly, but would you mind, Kliska, answering this question?

I am curious as to how you would address a person who says that he wishes to elevate his relationship with Christ by reading ONLY the words of Christ in the Scripture.

It would turn into a theological debate about Jesus as the Word of God and precisely Whose words are recorded in scripture; man or God’s. In effect, most of us, if pushed, would say all the words should be in red. And, BTW, there are in fact “red letter” believers that only think those words are of Divine origin, I (we?) obviously disagree.

 

[PRmerger]

In the way I understand that command, yes

Do you see the inconsistent application of the imperative here?

You say, "It’s an imperative, therefore that means ‘only’ "
And yet, "It’s an imperative, but it doesn’t mean ‘only’ "

Let me ask a question; do you believe that the praying Paul was talking about; praying without ceasing is formed, verbal, prayer every hour of every day? Or do you thing he is meaning something more… existentially oriented?

I think he means many, many things–one being the existentially oriented prayer, one being one’s behavior, one being one’s thoughts, and one being, most sublimely, the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is, thanks to the evangelization of Catholic saints throughout history, occurring from the rising of the sun to its setting, from east to west, at every hour of the day on this planet. Amazing!!