Protestants and our lady of Guadalupe

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Adamski

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A major part of me solidifying that I needed to come back to the church was the study of the tilma of Juan Diego. For one the same fabric only last 20 years of so and the tilma had lasted over 500 years. This is just the tip of the iceberg there are so many elements that can not be explained using science. How can anyone not be catholic once they look into all the details of our lady of Guadalupe ?
 
I think Protestants generally view Mary only as a human used to bear Jesus, the God-Human. Since they do not revere Our Lady as anything more than a passive vessel, she’s not even on their radar. Many/most will explain away Marian apparitions not as divinely-inspired messages but something not heaven-sent…

Before I started looking into the Catholic Church, I thought Our Lady of Guadalupe was just an ethnic image Hispanic Catholics liked to have on their candles. (I’m originally from LA.)
 
Aside from thanking God for giving us Mary, and if I believed possible, thanking Mary myself what more should I do?

I thank God for every good creation, whether human or object. I don’t understand why Catholics disapprove of how we treat Mary. The belief that she does not receive all of our petitions is only based on our belief that she’s not omnipotent; but that doesn’t mean we can’t thank God for her. Also, we thank God for Peter, for Paul, for our Pastors and for the people doing missions trips. I don’t think any of those people seek praise because doing so would be unbiblical anyway. Can someone please clear up for me what more we can do for a created being?
 
Adamski said:
A major part of me solidifying that I needed to come back to the church was the study of the tilma of Juan Diego. For one the same fabric only last 20 years of so and the tilma had lasted over 500 years. This is just the tip of the iceberg there are so many elements that can not be explained using science. How can anyone not be catholic once they look into all the details of our lady of Guadalupe ?
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Many Protestants would not consider this authentic or even want to bother studying it. Many protestants would not believe in any Marian appearances at all. thankful you have and taken the time to study and learn.
 
Adamski said:
A major part of me solidifying that I needed to come back to the church was the study of the tilma of Juan Diego. For one the same fabric only last 20 years of so and the tilma had lasted over 500 years. This is just the tip of the iceberg there are so many elements that can not be explained using science. How can anyone not be catholic once they look into all the details of our lady of Guadalupe ?
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I looked into it and there and cannot find any evidence that nothing more than just a painting. 🤷
 
Avdima said:
I looked into it and there and cannot find any evidence that nothing more than just a painting. 🤷
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A painting with no paint! :rolleyes: which by the way is exactly what the Sindone of Turin is. Another image with no paint on it whatsoever.

God allows this miracles to happen so that the words of our Lord still ring true as ever:
John
20:27 Next, he said to Thomas: “Look at my hands, and place your finger here; and bring your hand close, and place it at my side. And do not choose to be unbelieving, but faithful.”
20:28 Thomas responded and said to him, “My Lord and my God.”
20:29 Jesus said to him: “You have seen me, Thomas, so you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
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What about those who refuse obstinately to see the truth. That deny the very miracle that happens at every mass when Jesus comes to us to nourish our spirit so that we might have everlasting life.

–
 
Let me ask, how would somebody learn about God without being led astray?
Us Christian we have the Bible as the true Word of God. The old testament was a shadow of the New Testament that culminated with the revelation of the Messiah. If we lose focus, we are doomed!

If you have lead the new Testament, you’ll see the centrality of Christ in every page.
He is the beginner and the finisher of our faith - period.

Lets look at the apparitions.
  1. In the apparition of Mt. Carmel, ‘Mary’ appeared with a scapular with a message “that whoever dies wearing it, shall not suffer eternal fire”. People have tried to explain it, but in its simplest form is occultic and a mockery to Jesus who died on the cross for our sins.
  2. Why doesn’t the ‘Mary’ of apparitions exult Christ or God. She exults herself, and does not give reference to God or to the Bible? Her message is confusing on the teaching of Christ. The church then goes ahead and constructs a shrine/church which farther takes people away from the focus of Christ.
  3. God always used angels to convey His message to men. Even Mary herself received her message from an Angel. Joseph was spoken to by an angel to run to Egypt. Even Jesus at the garden of Gethsemane was strengthened by an an angel. Why is God not using his many Angels who carry His message faithfully?
4.The apparitions seems to be stage-managed to appear at strategic places and at specific times to achieve some hidden objectives. If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc
 
Kamaz said:
Let me ask, how would somebody learn about God without being led astray?
Us Christian we have the Bible as the true Word of God. The old testament was a shadow of the New Testament that culminated with the revelation of the Messiah. If we lose focus, we are doomed!

If you have lead the new Testament, you’ll see the centrality of Christ in every page.
He is the beginner and the finisher of our faith - period.

Lets look at the apparitions.
  1. In the apparition of Mt. Carmel, ‘Mary’ appeared with a scapular with a message “that whoever dies wearing it, shall not suffer eternal fire”. People have tried to explain it, but in its simplest form is occultic and a mockery to Jesus who died on the cross for our sins.
  2. Why doesn’t the ‘Mary’ of apparitions exult Christ or God. She exults herself, and does not give reference to God or to the Bible? Her message is confusing on the teaching of Christ. The church then goes ahead and constructs a shrine/church which farther takes people away from the focus of Christ.
  3. God always used angels to convey His message to men. Even Mary herself received her message from an Angel. Joseph was spoken to by an angel to run to Egypt. Even Jesus at the garden of Gethsemane was strengthened by an an angel. Why is God not using his many Angels who carry His message faithfully?
4.The apparitions seems to be stage-managed to appear at strategic places and at specific times to achieve some hidden objectives. If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc
Click to expand...
 
Kamaz said:
Let me ask, how would somebody learn about God without being led astray?
Us Christian we have the Bible as the true Word of God. The old testament was a shadow of the New Testament that culminated with the revelation of the Messiah. If we lose focus, we are doomed!

If you have lead the new Testament, you’ll see the centrality of Christ in every page.
He is the beginner and the finisher of our faith - period.

Lets look at the apparitions.
  1. In the apparition of Mt. Carmel, ‘Mary’ appeared with a scapular with a message “that whoever dies wearing it, shall not suffer eternal fire”. People have tried to explain it, but in its simplest form is occultic and a mockery to Jesus who died on the cross for our sins.
This is only your opinion. What evidence do you have?
  1. Why doesn’t the ‘Mary’ of apparitions exult Christ or God. She exults herself, and does not give reference to God or to the Bible? Her message is confusing on the teaching of Christ. The church then goes ahead and constructs a shrine/church which farther takes people away from the focus of Christ.
See my note below. Her message is always about her Son, that we need to turn to him.

**2. God always used angels to convey His message to men. **Even Mary herself received her message from an Angel. Joseph was spoken to by an angel to run to Egypt. Even Jesus at the garden of Gethsemane was strengthened by an an angel. Why is God not using his many Angels who carry His message faithfully?

God also gave us the Written Word of God, the bible, by speaking (directly) through man. And we see in the bible, Mary directing people to listen to her Son. How fitting for a mother to do so

4.The apparitions seems to be stage-managed to appear at strategic places and at specific times to achieve some hidden objectives. If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc
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Kamaz,

You are mis-informed on all points above.

Mary always points us to her Son and it is through the power of her Son that she appears to us. Christ is using Mary, his mother, to call us to penance, conversion, fasting and prayer. This message is repeated over and over. There is no inconsistency with her message and that of her Son. She points us to her Son, telling us to “Follow Him” and to “Listen to Him”. Quite biblical and rooted in the Tradition of the Church.

And there is a Church approved Marian apparition in Africa, Kibeho. Quite remarkable. Suggest that you read about it from a Catholic source.

PnP
 
My husband and I are converts to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism.

There are lots of ways to witness to Protestants about Christ and Catholicism.

**I would say that using the Marian Apparitions is probably not the best approach to use with most Evangelical Protestants.
**

I know that many Catholics love, adore, and cherish Mary as their own Mother, and are devoted to seeking her intercession, venerating her image, and honoring her by wearing medals, scapulars, etc. But this mindset is so incredibly foreign to Evangelical Protestants, that you will probably do more harm than good trying to explain this Marian love to them. Many Evangelical Protestants see the Marian devotion as conflicting with devotion to the Lord Jesus, Who, in their opinion, should be our All in All, our sole passion, our Supreme Love. They will be not only offended, but horrified by the extent of some Catholics’ Marian devotion. They don’t understand it and probably never will until they become Catholic, and even then, many ex-Evangelical Protestants never enter into Marian devotion with the enthusiasm of cradle Catholics.

Keep in mind that the Catholic Church does not require devotion to Mary. It is an “extra”–one of the treasures available to Catholics. But it is not a requirement to be a “good Catholic.”

Evangelical Protestants have a hard time understanding that spending time with Mary is one of the best ways to grow closer to Jesus. That simply does not compute with them.

You can argue against me all you like–I agree with you! I’m not trying to argue against you!

What I’m arguing against is trying to witness to Evangelical Protestants using Mary. It’s a huge mistake. You’ll be arguing against a solid concrete, closed, locked door. Don’t do that. Try to witness to Evangelical Protestants in such a way that you leave an OPEN door so that other Catholics can also witness to them. If you close and lock their door trying to persuade them about Mary, you will make it harder for other Catholics to reach them.

My opinion is that you need to trust and allow MARY to witness to Evangelical Protestants in her own quiet, gentle way. You don’t need to speak for her–her love woos everyone, including the Evangelical Protestants, to her Son.

The best way to witness to Evangelical Protestants is to have a solid knowledge of the Bible and apologetics. The Bible is the Sole Source of knowledge of God for most Evangelical Protestants, and they will listen to someone who knows the Bible.

The other way to witness to Evangelical Protestants is to live a life of Christian good works and piety. The faithfulness of Catholics to protecting the unborn in the United States has convinced many Evangelical Protestants of the truth of Catholicism. And I know that Catholics don’t like to hear this, but many Evangelicals are turned off when they see Catholics drinking alcohol, but are intrigued when they meet Catholics who abstain. Think about trying it. (I’m not talking about other kinds of Protestants in the Mainline groups; I’m talking about Evangelical Protestants, which often include many types of Fundamentalist/Pentecostal Protestants).
 
Kamaz said:
Let me ask, how would somebody learn about God without being led astray?
Us Christian we have the Bible as the true Word of God. The old testament was a shadow of the New Testament that culminated with the revelation of the Messiah. If we lose focus, we are doomed!

**Yes indeed we have the Bible which the Catholic Church gave to the world but we also have the Magisterium that teaches us HOW to read and interpret the word of God, lest we twist it’s meanining to our own destruction.
**

If you have lead the new Testament, you’ll see the centrality of Christ in every page.
He is the beginner and the finisher of our faith - period.

Lets look at the apparitions.
  1. In the apparition of Mt. Carmel, ‘Mary’ appeared with a scapular with a message “that whoever dies wearing it, shall not suffer eternal fire”. People have tried to explain it, but in its simplest form is occultic and a mockery to Jesus who died on the cross for our sins.
Wearing a scapular entails certain commitments on our part, it is NOT a bullet proof vest, seems the difference has not being understood.
  1. Why doesn’t the ‘Mary’ of apparitions exult Christ or God. She exults herself, and does not give reference to God or to the Bible? Her message is confusing on the teaching of Christ. The church then goes ahead and constructs a shrine/church which farther takes people away from the focus of Christ.
  2. God always used angels to convey His message to men. Even Mary herself received her message from an Angel. Joseph was spoken to by an angel to run to Egypt. Even Jesus at the garden of Gethsemane was strengthened by an an angel. Why is God not using his many Angels who carry His message faithfully?
Really? what about the Prophets, Jesus or His Apostles not to mention His Church which He left us for our benefit.

4.The apparitions seems to be stage-managed to appear at strategic places and at specific times to achieve some hidden objectives. If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc
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It says you are Catholic in your profile, but your words betray you. 😦

–
 
JerryZ said:

God allows this miracles to happen so that the words of our Lord still ring true as ever…​

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He loves us! He still loves us!

That’s what I think, when I consider these miracles.
 
dronald said:
Can someone please clear up for me what more we can do for a created being?
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Pretty clear, even from a “Bible only” perspective:

Loved them as we love ourselves and love them as Jesus loves them.

A dismissal of a created being would clearly violate these two commandments.

We are even commanded to love our enemies… this has to be the single most hardest thing to do for me. BTW, an enemy is also a created being.

In the end - since God loves created beings, who are we not to love them?
 
As a past Anglican who grew up in the Church of England but who has always had an interest in the Catholic faith, I can confirm that the Marian devotions are a completely new concept to me. I have read a lot about the various shrines to Mary all over the world and have an open and receptive mind as I embark on my RCIA journey.

From my own perspective, I think that many Protestants minimise the mystical in religion and square matters of faith into neat, self-contained packages, if you know what I mean. I embrace the mystical, because I believe that there is much yet unrevealed to us even in this world. From my extensive reading regarding the apparitions at Fatima, I am quite convinced that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to the children and that she imparted messages of great importance to them.

I recently started wearing a Miraculous Medal and feel that it is giving something to me that I can’t explain.
 
I’m so sorry you’ve been so misinformed! Would you like us to list some resources so you can learn the truth about Marian apparitions?
Kamaz said:
Let me ask, how would somebody learn about God without being led astray?
Us Christian we have the Bible as the true Word of God. The old testament was a shadow of the New Testament that culminated with the revelation of the Messiah. If we lose focus, we are doomed!

If you have lead the new Testament, you’ll see the centrality of Christ in every page.
He is the beginner and the finisher of our faith - period.

Lets look at the apparitions.
  1. In the apparition of Mt. Carmel, ‘Mary’ appeared with a scapular with a message “that whoever dies wearing it, shall not suffer eternal fire”. People have tried to explain it, but in its simplest form is occultic and a mockery to Jesus who died on the cross for our sins.
  2. Why doesn’t the ‘Mary’ of apparitions exult Christ or God. She exults herself, and does not give reference to God or to the Bible? Her message is confusing on the teaching of Christ. The church then goes ahead and constructs a shrine/church which farther takes people away from the focus of Christ.
  3. God always used angels to convey His message to men. Even Mary herself received her message from an Angel. Joseph was spoken to by an angel to run to Egypt. Even Jesus at the garden of Gethsemane was strengthened by an an angel. Why is God not using his many Angels who carry His message faithfully?
4.The apparitions seems to be stage-managed to appear at strategic places and at specific times to achieve some hidden objectives. If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc
Click to expand...
 
Kamaz said:
Let me ask, how would somebody learn about God without being led astray?
Us Christian we have the Bible as the true Word of God. The old testament was a shadow of the New Testament that culminated with the revelation of the Messiah. If we lose focus, we are doomed!

If you have lead the new Testament, you’ll see the centrality of Christ in every page.
He is the beginner and the finisher of our faith - period.

Lets look at the apparitions.
  1. In the apparition of Mt. Carmel, ‘Mary’ appeared with a scapular with a message “that whoever dies wearing it, shall not suffer eternal fire”. People have tried to explain it, but in its simplest form is occultic and a mockery to Jesus who died on the cross for our sins.
  2. Why doesn’t the ‘Mary’ of apparitions exult Christ or God. She exults herself, and does not give reference to God or to the Bible? Her message is confusing on the teaching of Christ. The church then goes ahead and constructs a shrine/church which farther takes people away from the focus of Christ.
  3. God always used angels to convey His message to men. Even Mary herself received her message from an Angel. Joseph was spoken to by an angel to run to Egypt. Even Jesus at the garden of Gethsemane was strengthened by an an angel. Why is God not using his many Angels who carry His message faithfully?
4.The apparitions seems to be stage-managed to appear at strategic places and at specific times to achieve some hidden objectives. If the apparitions message is for the world, why does she not appear in Africa - in Congo where fighting is the order of the day, in Somalia where there’s no government, in India where there’s pagan worship, in the Muslim world who convert them to Christianity?? etc
Click to expand...
You are aware that this apparition is attributed to the conversion of more than 9 million indians from their pagan beliefs to Christianity?
 
I think is because people are biased in their own beliefs and when they don’t want to see something they are going to come with any excuse to deny it. I have read quite extensively on the tilt subject, both against and in favor, and the evidence of it being a supernatural event is overwhelming. Saying is a fake comes either from not knowing enough about it or not wanting to see it.
 
JerryZ said:
A painting with no paint! :rolleyes: which by the way is exactly what the Sindone of Turin is. Another image with no paint on it whatsoever.

God allows this miracles to happen so that the words of our Lord still ring true as ever:

What about those who refuse obstinately to see the truth. That deny the very miracle that happens at every mass when Jesus comes to us to nourish our spirit so that we might have everlasting life.

–
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And a painting that remains intact after being thrown acid and a bomb explosion. Quite a stubborn painting.
 
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