Protestants and The Crucifix

[farmfresh]

Stef,
I cant help but think that this thread was started out of spite. Do you honestly think that protestant religions choose to ignore the best gift that God gave us? Every religion has their own traditions or way of doing things, and this is a perfect example of that. A cross is no less meaningful to me than a crucifix is to you. They BOTH remind me of what took place and what I should be thankful for.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I cant help but think that this thread was started out of spite. Do you honestly think that protestant religions choose to ignore the best gift that God gave us? Every religion has their own traditions or way of doing things, and this is a perfect example of that. A cross is no less meaningful to me than a crucifix is to you. They BOTH remind me of what took place and what I should be thankful for.

I don’t think that anyone particularly believes that Protestants ignore the meaning of the cross or don’t find it a reminder of Christ’s sacrifice. I do believe that they don’t give Catholics the same consideration as to why we find the Crucifix a comfort and great reminder of that same sacrifice.

Catholics wear both types of crosses, it’s the Protestants that have the issue with the Crucifix. That’s basically what this thread is discussing and the reasons behind their repulsion.

 

[DARichards]

Stef,
I cant help but think that this thread was started out of spite. Do you honestly think that protestant religions choose to ignore the best gift that God gave us? Every religion has their own traditions or way of doing things, and this is a perfect example of that. A cross is no less meaningful to me than a crucifix is to you. They BOTH remind me of what took place and what I should be thankful for.

Being a former Protestant (before this past Easter Vigil), I would have to agree with the basis of RidgeRunners explanation. In the Protestant Church, most of the denominations are what they would prefer to be referred to as “joy filled” and “hope filled”. What I was taught was that the victory that was won for Christians was in the Resurrection. That is why there is an empty cross, because Jesus is not there any more He is risen. What they fail to recognize in this is that the Sacrifice of Christ is an eternal Sacrifice and that His Passion is an intregal part to our salvation. If he would have died a natural death and raised again, that would not have redeemed us according to God’s law. There had to be a shedding of blood.

Secondly, there is still enough rebellion in the Protestant Churches to keep them protesting and to want them to separate themselves in the farthest extent from anything that even smells of the Papacy or Catholicism. If we are right (which we know we are) then they are not free to interpret the Bible as they see fit or as the “Holy Spirit leads them.” At that point they must submit themselves to the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Church_Militant]

This one is a no brainer, but John Martignoni responds to it better than I can.

Apologetics 101-05

(LINK)

Q: I had a friend ask me why Catholics have Crucifixes in our churches…don’t we believe Jesus has risen? Why do we keep Him on the cross?

A: First of all, you would want to check out 1st Corinthians, chapter 1, verse 23. Paul says, “…but we preach Christ crucified…” Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn’t he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the “power of God”.

1 Cor 2:2, “For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.” Again, didn’t Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the “power of God”. This is why, we “keep Jesus on the cross,” because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God’s power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it? Oh my… a crucifix is soooo wrong. NOT! I look on mine and see the terrible price that Our Lord paid for my sins…and that makes me want to live the way that I did again. I’m sure that that metanoia must also be wrong in the eyes of a-Cs.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[DARichards]

I am not a Protestant, just a Christian. I preach Christ crucified. Much like catholics tell us to read the catechism and not just take the words from someone catholic who may be misinformed, you should do research or something.

The reason why Jesus is not on the cross is because it is wrong to make idols for worship as per the second command.

Sola Scriptura Strikes again…:yup: :yup:

Better get rid of the cross too… the second commandment means nothing on the earth or in the earth…you made it with your hands and it is set aside for people to respect and honor…that is a BIG NO NO:tsktsk: :tsktsk:

 

[rbarcia]

Does the prohibition against likenesses apply to everything in heaven, on the earth, or under the earth? Do you have a driver’s license with your picture on it? Do you have pictures of your family? Have you told the Government that they’re breaking the law of God by keeping that Statue of Liberty around? What about all those statues in our public parks and in the halls of the nation’s Capitol? This is absurd reasoning.

Hmmmm. God commanded the Jews not to make images and likenesses, then He commanded the Jews to make images and likenesses?

Does God oppose those who make art? Poor Michaelangelo must be in h-e-double toothpicks forever…

Katholikos

God gave the Jews specific instructions for specific reasons. I do not kneel before my the driver’s license of a dead relative as a proto-type to the real thing

The God gave direct sommandments to all not to woroship idols. He also gave specific instructions for an Ark, that houses tablets with words He wrote. A snake in the desert for a specific healing (a thing meant to humble the Isrealites at the time because of their complaining), and the Cheribum was specific to the temple, people did not worship them. Compare these 3 event to over 100 instance where God through prophets, judges, Jesus Himself, and the aposltes gave direct instructions to stay away from idols. However, no where do they condone religious icons for veneration.

However, the icons and religious figures are specifically created for religious activity, even if you call the activity veneration. This has nothing to do with art or a drivers license.

The Cat itself confirms that these type of images are meant for religous activity.
Cat 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and “whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it.” The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:
So by denying you “worship” is only in word and not in deed. You are decieved into thinking you do not worhsip images because you transubstantiate all your actions.
I am “Venerating” in the guise of something that looks like “worship” but it is a veneration"through" a “prot-type” to an actual saint. So there is no worship of statues, but veneration in what appears to be worship.

I appear to be eating bread, but it is Jesus in what appears to be bread.

I appear to be drinking wine, but it is his blood, in the guise that it is wine.

I appear to be worshiping Mary, but I am really venerating her in the appearance of worship.

I appear to be asking Mary for help, but I am really asking her to pask Jesus for help, even if I did not phrase it that way.

All the denials and claims are of words, not of deeds. Many are being decieved into doing things that they think they are not.

 

[rr1213]

Why is it that when you walk in a Protestant Church you don’t see Jesus hanging on the cross?? Is it because they don’t want to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died?

“Why is it when you walk in a Catholic Church you don’t see an empty cross? Is it because they don’t want to remember that Christ is risen and no longer hanging on that tree?”

Both of the above statements are inane. This is one of the areas where the differences between Catholics and Protestants is more *cultural *than theological. Catholics tend to emphasize Christ’s passion. Protestants tend to emphasize the Resurection. Yet neither, to my knowledge, forget the other because you simply can’t, can you? What would the crucifixion be without the resurection? Nothing. To paraphrase St. Paul, if Christ did not rise from the dead then our faith is worthless and we are to be pitied most among men. Contrarywise, what would the resurection be without the passion? The sacrifice of Christ for our sins? As Christians, there can not be one without the other and we must focus on both. This is an inane dispute that should not divide us.

 

[Saint_Michael]

It’s interesting because I see no shortage of Angel statues, Crosses, pictures of Jesus etc… In most Protestant households and Churches. If you’re fair and honest, you can clearly see that if you use the same level of scrutiny to yourself as you do Catholics, you too are indeed idolators. Is hanging a graven Cross, picture of Jesus crucifixion, or an Angel statue any different than a crucifix? I don’t think so, and undoubtedly neither do Jews of Muslims, they all think all Christians are idolators.

I mean look at this Christian book store alone with their Christmas decorations, carvings of Angels, nativities etc… Uh Oh!!!

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?N=5100+1109425&Ne=1000000&Nu=product.endeca_rollup&Ns=product.number_sold&event=SP55020|808352|55020|808352|55020&format=1014675&Nso=1&category=Christmas

These are O.K.? A statue of George Washington is O.K.? A statue of Saint Peter = idolatory???

 

[Saint_Michael]

“Why is it when you walk in a Catholic Church you don’t see an empty cross? Is it because they don’t want to remember that Christ is risen and no longer hanging on that tree?”.

But you do after Easter Sunday. You’ll see an empty cross with the Purple linen draped over it, it represents Christ as risen.

“The cross you see is an empty cross. Jesus is not dead. He is risen! This empty cross is our constant reminder that not even such a cruel death could defeat Gods love for us.”

 

[painter]

On a deeper level, and not considered by all Protestants, but certainly by some, it has to do with the concept of time and the Incarnation. Protestant “time”, in a religious sense, is more linear than it is in Catholic consciousness. To many Protestants, time is a straight line, and the whole sacrifice of Calvary is over. To Catholics, it is from eternity into eternity. It is never over, because in God, there is no “time.” The Catholic notion deepens the pathos of the Passion, because one thinks, then, of a God who delivered Himself to an eternal sacrifice, rather than one that happened, then ended.

Also, to some (but not all) Protestants, there is a different notion of the Incarnation. To Catholics, God, through Jesus, entered permanently into human existence, and changed it by His continued presence in humanity. For this reason, men (priests) have the power to forgive sins; something only God could do, but for God’s “sharing” certain of His power and therefore nature, with men.

 

[awantz]

Why is it that when you walk in a Protestant Church you don’t see Jesus hanging on the cross?? Is it because they don’t want to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died?

Some protestant churches do have Christ hanging on the cross. I think the reason why some protestant churches do not have Christ hanging on the cross is because without Christ’s resurrection from the dead He would not have completed his mission on earth and nothing would have changed from the old testament. I hear some protestants ask why catholics have Christ on the cross. They ask, Do they still think he is hanging on the cross?" The reason for not having Christ on the cross definatly has nothing to do with not wanting to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died. Protestants remember The Passion just as much as catholics.

 

[rbarcia]

On a deeper level, and not considered by all Protestants, but certainly by some, it has to do with the concept of time and the Incarnation. Protestant “time”, in a religious sense, is more linear than it is in Catholic consciousness. To many Protestants, time is a straight line, and the whole sacrifice of Calvary is over. To Catholics, it is from eternity into eternity. It is never over, because in God, there is no “time.” The Catholic notion deepens the pathos of the Passion, because one thinks, then, of a God who delivered Himself to an eternal sacrifice, rather than one that happened, then ended.

This has nothing to do with a deep state of conscience, this sounds like some Yoga or buddism, and such. The sacrificed happend in time, Once. The Bible clearly states this. The result, which is eternal life for those who believe, are eternal. The event itself is not one big infinite event that is happening and happening. Plus you are fooling yourself into thinking you understand eternity. No man can. God told us already that sacrifiec happened once, for all time. Not happening once over and over.

**

John 19: 30

30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Hebrews 9

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Hebrews 10

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Romans 6:

. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
**

**

There is no more offering for sin

**
Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. **

**

 

[painter]

I don’t believe it much matters what I think about all this, nor what anyone else here thinks about it. What really matters is that God really did take on human form and really did die on the cross and really did come back to life and really is living now and forever.

While we are pointing out each other’s faults the rest of the world around us goes blindly on to destruction.

Could we not for ONE HOUR be before HIM in prayer for each other? Could we not Bless each other? And when we stand before HIM what will we offer? Our opinions on these matters or the whole of our lives lived as an offering to HIM.

As some have said already…Peace

 

[RCCDefender]

This one is a no brainer, but John Martignoni responds to it better than I can.
Oh my… a crucifix is soooo wrong. NOT! I look on mine and see the terrible price that Our Lord paid for my sins…and that makes me want to live the way that I did again. I’m sure that that metanoia must also be wrong in the eyes of a-Cs.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

Thank you Church Militant for posting this. I think it is an excellent answer to Stef’s question. This was precisely what I was going to post!

And I think it bears repeating:
Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it?

 

[glimmer]

This seems to be outside of time. Otherwise, you’d have to believe it happened when God created the heavens and the earth:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

See Revelation 5:5 and 6. John is told that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah can open the book with the seven seals and he turns to see in the midst of the throne a Lamb as it had been slain. Sounds again like this is outside of time.

Now, getting back to this:

Galatians 3:1, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?” Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their “eyes”, as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn’t it?

You surprised me with that one. But when I looked in the King James (which I love because so many helps are available to dissect it), I found this:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (from the King Jimmy)

Now let us lift out that little phrase, “hath been evidently set forth”. We see that it has been derived from this word: prographō

It is No. G4270 in the Strong’s Concordance provided by e-sword.net:

prog-raf’-o
From G4253 and G1125; to write previously; figuratively to announce, prescribe: - before ordain, evidently set forth, write (afore, aforetime).

It might help to compare several texts.

 

[rr1213]

But you do after Easter Sunday. You’ll see an empty cross with the Purple linen draped over it, it represents Christ as risen.

“The cross you see is an empty cross. Jesus is not dead. He is risen! This empty cross is our constant reminder that not even such a cruel death could defeat Gods love for us.”

That’s a powerful image. That’s good then.

 

[rr1213]

Some protestant churches do have Christ hanging on the cross. I think the reason why some protestant churches do not have Christ hanging on the cross is because without Christ’s resurrection from the dead He would not have completed his mission on earth and nothing would have changed from the old testament. I hear some protestants ask why catholics have Christ on the cross. They ask, Do they still think he is hanging on the cross?" The reason for not having Christ on the cross definatly has nothing to do with not wanting to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died. Protestants remember The Passion just as much as catholics.

You’re preaching to the choir here. As I said earlier, the differences between Catholics and Protestants to the extent that they exist on whether to display a crucifix or an empty cross are primarily cultural, matters of emphasis, rather than theological distinctions. Oh, sure, there might be some theological aspect, some of the posts above have some interesting thoughts in that regard, but the ruckus which the OP tries to promote is merely a tempest in a teapot.

 

[Saint_Michael]

but the ruckus which the OP tries to promote is merely a tempest in a teapot.

That’s probably why her account is under review…

 

[rr1213]

That or post no. 7 above…

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

So by denying you “worship” is only in word and not in deed. You are decieved into thinking you do not worhsip images because you transubstantiate all your actions.

I am “Venerating” in the guise of something that looks like “worship” but it is a veneration"through" a “prot-type” to an actual saint. So there is no worship of statues, but veneration in what appears to be worship.

I appear to be eating bread, but it is Jesus in what appears to be bread.

I appear to be drinking wine, but it is his blood, in the guise that it is wine.

I appear to be worshiping Mary, but I am really venerating her in the appearance of worship.

I appear to be asking Mary for help, but I am really asking her to pask Jesus for help, even if I did not phrase it that way.

All the denials and claims are of words, not of deeds. Many are being decieved into doing things that they think they are not.*

The deeds you describe, with exception to the Body and Blood of Jesus, are not deeds of worship in the Catholic faith. Sorry, but you are mistaken. It only “appears” that way to someone who does not know what Catholic worship is. It is a mistake for you to define our worship in your parameters. A Catholic would never mistake kneeling or veneration for WORSHIP. They are different things, even though you are lumping them all into the same category. The highest level of honor and adoration that is due to God alone is our worship. However, the saints and angels are in heaven with God, unified with God, it is from that union that we give them honor and veneration.

It strikes me that you say that we are being deceived into false worship. Worship is an concious act of the heart. If I bow to honor a person symbolized in a statue and it is not in my heart to worship it, how can you insist I am worshipping it? How do you know what is in my heart? When I look at a crucifix I look at it as a symbol of what Christ did for me… I do not believe He is still stuck there on the cross. However, it is His obedience to the death on the cross that paid the price of our salvation, I believe it is worth remembering in a special way.

If you treat your bible with reverence, does that mean you worship it? Why don’t you go do something really nasty to your bible right now, you know, stomp on it or throw it in the garbage. Would that be irreverent? Does that mean you worship it? No, of course not. But my guess is that you treat it with honor, as well you should. However it is not the level of honor that is due to God alone. Hopefully, that will demonstrate to you that honor and love is different than worship.