Protestants and The Crucifix

[ALLFORHIM]

“Why is it when you walk in a Catholic Church you don’t see an empty cross? Is it because they don’t want to remember that Christ is risen and no longer hanging on that tree?”

Both of the above statements are inane. This is one of the areas where the differences between Catholics and Protestants is more *cultural *than theological. Catholics tend to emphasize Christ’s passion. Protestants tend to emphasize the Resurection. Yet neither, to my knowledge, forget the other because you simply can’t, can you? What would the crucifixion be without the resurection? Nothing. To paraphrase St. Paul, if Christ did not rise from the dead then our faith is worthless and we are to be pitied most among men. Contrarywise, what would the resurection be without the passion? The sacrifice of Christ for our sins? As Christians, there can not be one without the other and we must focus on both. This is an inane dispute that should not divide us.

Hi well said Neither one of us is wrong. My church has an empty cross because Christ has risen. At Easter we put the crown of thorns and a purple cloth over the cross. If the catholics want to put a cross with Jesus on it fine I say We all believe in the cruxsifiction and resurrection–right?

 

[Jennifer_G]

Why is it that when you walk in a Protestant Church you don’t see Jesus hanging on the cross?? Is it because they don’t want to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died?

In the Lutheran church, it’s because (from what I’ve been told) that Lutherans believe “Jesus is up in Heaven and no longer on the cross, so there’s no need for a crucifix. He is not ‘here’ (on the cross), He is ‘up There’”.

 

[MariaG]

Why is it that when you walk in a Protestant Church you don’t see Jesus hanging on the cross?? Is it because they don’t want to remember The Passion and his dying for our sins and the horrendous way he died?

I have to say, I find this question as loaded as the reverse question,

“Why do Catholics still have Jesus on the Cross? Don’t you worship the Risen Lord?”

Irritating bordering on offensive, and showing a complete lack of understanding for cultural differences of worship.

As there is a problem with the thread and I am unable to view all of it, maybe you have explained your intent of this and it wasn’t not meant they way it “sounds”. I pray so.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[tigerlily]

i wonder this too but at the end of the day a cross with or without jesus is still a cross and still a sign of our christianity. both are beautiful!

 

[DARichards]

Here’s a very interesting quote from Martin Luther in regard to this whole thing:

Martin Luther on the Rosary, Images of Mary, and Crucifixes

Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!” You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor . . . We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her . . . He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation.

(Personal Prayer Book, 1522 / Sermon, March 11, 1523)

Now we do not request more than that one permit us to regard a crucifix or a saint’s image as a witness, for remembrance, as a sign as that image of Caesar was. Should it not be as possible for us without sin to have a crucifix or an image of Mary, as it was for the Jews and Christ himself to have an image of Caesar who, pagan and now dead, belonged to the devil?

(Against the Heavenly Prophets, 1525, in Luther’s Works, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan, Vol. 40, p. 96)

 

[lak611]

I attended a service at a Lutheran Church (LCMS), and they had a crucifix in their sanctuary. So, I don’t think one can necessarily categorize all Catholics or Protestants as being a certain way in terms of the crucifx vs. the cross.

 

[Syele]

I have to say, I find this question as loaded as the reverse question,

“Why do Catholics still have Jesus on the Cross? Don’t you worship the Risen Lord?”

Irritating bordering on offensive, and showing a complete lack of understanding for cultural differences of worship.

As there is a problem with the thread and I am unable to view all of it, maybe you have explained your intent of this and it wasn’t not meant they way it “sounds”. I pray so.

God Bless,
Maria

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Both Questions have the same answer.

 

[simbagizmo]

Here’s a very interesting quote from Martin Luther in regard to this whole thing:

Martin Luther on the Rosary, Images of Mary, and Crucifixes

Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!” You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor . . . We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her . . . He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation.

(Personal Prayer Book, 1522 / Sermon, March 11, 1523)

Now we do not request more than that one permit us to regard a crucifix or a saint’s image as a witness, for remembrance, as a sign as that image of Caesar was. Should it not be as possible for us without sin to have a crucifix or an image of Mary, as it was for the Jews and Christ himself to have an image of Caesar who, pagan and now dead, belonged to the devil?

(Against the Heavenly Prophets, 1525, in Luther’s Works, edited by Jaroslav Pelikan, Vol. 40, p. 96)

Now, I will probably get ridiculed from the other side, but if this is truely quoted and the context is correct as stated, Luther was wrong here. Jesus specifically told us how and who we are to pray to.

Matthew 6
6 "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Matthew 6
9 "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.

Also God tells us the following with making images

Exodus 20
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

[rbarcia]

This seems to be outside of time. Otherwise, you’d have to believe it happened when God created the heavens and the earth:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life ofthe Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

No it does not sound like it is outside of time. Clearly the verses I showed from Hebrews shows this. As far as this verse.

If you look at the sentence, it is the names that have been written since the foundation of the world. Slain is past tense

The American Standard Version translates it like this.

**

Rev 13

8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

**

If you look at Revelation 17:8, you see this is in context and correct. It is the names that have been written since the foundation of the world.

**

Rev 17:8
8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

**

See Revelation 5:5 and 6. John is told that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah can open the book with the seven seals and he turns to see in the midst of the throne a Lamb as it had been slain. Sounds again like this is outside of time.

As for Rev 5, The slain is past tense. There is much symbolism here. There is nothing here about a sacrifice happening throughout eternity. This symbolism is meant to identify the one who has been slain as victorious, which He is.

**

Rev 5: 5-6

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

**

If you go down to verse 12, notice the past tense. Nothing again indicating outside of time.

**

Rev 5

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

**

 

[Will_Pick]

I am not a Protestant, just a Christian. I preach Christ crucified. Much like catholics tell us to read the catechism and not just take the words from someone catholic who may be misinformed, you should do research or something.

The reason why Jesus is not on the cross is because it is wrong to make idols for worship as per the second command.

Exodus 20

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Even images meant to represent Him.

Isaiah 42:8

8 I am the LORD, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.

And I have the most respect for the price of my salvation. Christ paid for my salvation with His Body and Blood.

Hebrews 10

**11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. **12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

So you feel the lack of the Jesus on the cross is an insult and a denial for what you call “Passion.” And that we have no respect for the cross. I feel that your repeated offering for sin is an insult as the scriptures clearly say the work is done once and for all For it implies His sacrifice was not enough for sin. And if you believe it is the “same” event as that of the cross, then you bring the offering down to something that can never take away sin.

Hebrews 9:22

22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

And so the biggest mockery that of having a dead crucified staue looking over and over at daily sacrifices that is suppose to equal that work of the cross.

That is the Ultimate denial of His work on the cross

Instead of sitting together in breaking bread together, and eating and drinking in memory of Him, in communion.

That wonderful work on the cross that is of Christ !!! And He is Risen, no longer being offered as the scriptures clearly and directly state.

http://home.nj.rr.com/rbarcia/fairview_gospel_church/images/Cross.gif

Across is just a cross without the Crucified Christ.

 

[glimmer]

“The cross you see is an empty cross. Jesus is not dead. He is risen! This empty cross is our constant reminder that not even such a cruel death could defeat Gods love for us.”

When I was a kid, our church had no crosses, symbols, nada nada. But I was told that we ought to prefer a naked cross because Jesus is risen. Personally, though, I think the empty tomb is a better symbol of that, but you can’t wear an empty tomb around your neck, I don’t think.

 

[glimmer]

but the ruckus which the OP tries to promote is merely a tempest in a teapot.

What is an OP? Did I miss something? Does it stand for Orthodoxy Police, Ozone People, or Outraged Paratroopers…?

 

[dessert]

When I was a kid, our church had no crosses, symbols, nada nada. But I was told that we ought to prefer a naked cross because Jesus is risen. Personally, though, I think the empty tomb is a better symbol of that, but you can’t wear an empty tomb around your neck, I don’t think.

Glimmer I am saddened that you never even had a cross in your church what church was it? I was brought up catholic but spent many years in other churches and no one ever gave a very good explanation why no cross now I have come back to the faith it is more real to me because I understand more because I want to. The crucifix brings me back to the reason died for us bearing our sins and to bring us etenal life. And that God gave his only son, begotten not made that we might live for ever. We all know that God will live forever has and always will and that Jesus always existed with the father and came down from the father and was crucified for the sin of man. The crucifix is a reminder of the shed blood and there is usually very little or not much blood on it because his blood was shed as the ultimate sacrifice The resurection of the body so the Father may be glorified and the Holy Spirit may come to enlighten us to our sin and helper in our daily walk and comfort us in our daily prayers. Maybe if you read the chapter of John in the bible you will understand too .

Desert

 

[Syele]

What is an OP? Did I miss something? Does it stand for Orthodoxy Police, Ozone People, or Outraged Paratroopers…?

hehe

OP = Origional Poster

 

[Northwind]

I live in the Midwest and in our town we have a ‘mega-church’. This Protestant church brings in around 3000 people each weekend. I used to attend years ago but was very disappointed in a number of things, one of which is that there are no symbols of any kind. There aren’t any crosses, crucifixes…nothing. In fact if you didn’t know it was a church, you’d drive right by it and think it was a walmart or something. It’s a ‘seeker’ church and doesn’t want to offend anyone by coming on too strong, so the messages are basically social messages and they have their bookstore and coffee shop right there in the church. Oh, and I saw last year that they did not hold services of Christmas because it would interfere with familes time opening presents…? This made me think of;

1 Thess 2:4
4 but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men but God, who examines our hearts.

I like mass much better, not just because of the statues and of course crucifixes but the whole litergy is more humble and reverant.

As a former protestant, I see how each side views crosses and crucifixes and I don’t see anything wrong with either.

 

[Singinbeauty]

I am what you catholics call protestant tho I destest that categorization because it lumps me in with other groups who clearly don’t have Christ as their #1… But this is for another discussion.

This can tie in nicely to a thread that I had started: If It Seems Wrong… It Is

My step-mom’s Dad (I guess you could call him my step-grandfather) gave us a crucefix once and it hangs in a spare room that I now have. I don’t keep it out because of my convictions mentioned in other’s well put together previous posts. I wonder if I should take it out sometimes because I feel as though I am keeping Christ locked up but then the whole ‘graven image’ things comes to mind and I keep it where it is. See, I believe it is wrong to display graven images, of Christ or not, because of the whole Commandments thing. I will probably get rid of the one I have but I haven’t because it was a gift by a family member. And if you believe something is wrong by commandment of God Himself and you still do it… it’s almost as if you are doing it to spite Him or because you don’t care if it will tick Him off. Whether it really is wrong in His book or not.

So, until my convictions tell me otherwise, the crucefix I own will stay hanging in my spare room. (I should mention that the spare room is more of a storage room of which no one really goes into)

 

[glimmer]

Glimmer I am saddened that you never even had a cross in your church what church was it?

I just don’t recall seeing one, though there may have been one stashed somewhere. We didn’t do Christmas trees, either, but I could never figure out why Halloween was okay. It was more of a independent church thing, I think.

What church? Such a simple question, hard answer:
I spent my earliest year in a hole-in-the-wall church that my mother attended as a child. It had no affiliation. It was started as a mission and later underwent a profound outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the 1930s. About two weeks before the Azusa Street Revival, a bunch of people that included Baptists and Presbyterians got together there and were fervently praying. My grandmother was the first one who started laughing and crying and speaking in tongues (I wasn’t born yet). Nobody knew what happened and everybody went “Wow”, cause you know, Baptists and Presbyterians didn’t approve of stuff like that back then (some still don’t, but what are you gonna do if you are the one it happens to?).

And these people had their ideas, you know. The man who started the mission they were praying in had been a Presbyterian pastor and he left the pastorate to go home and die of cancer. His wife used to take him to the park and read the Bible to him. One day she was reading and he made her back up to where Jesus healed somebody. Then he asked her to pray for him. He got well and went back to his old church and told them what happened. They kicked him out because they didn’t believe in that sort of stuff (they would rather he’s died??? How dare God…). Half the congregants followed him to the new mission.

Anyway, I was half churched and half unchurched-- long story there. My parents came from totally different backgrounds and my mother was staunchly anti- a lot of stuff, so we didn’t get Christmas trees at home, but my grandmother was staunchly German and they were gonna have Christmas, by golly by gum. So I grew up in two worlds at the same time. It’s had a strange effect of making me suspicious of everything–always questioning, but also able to move in and out of different social constructs.

But I gotta tell you that these pre-Charismatic (but not Pentecostal either) days and they were nothing like Charismania today–no big bands and glitz. Very plain people, many poor, who just needed help and people prayed like mad. There was no running crazy in the church sanctuary and all that. People entered quietly and prayerfully because there was some kind of atmosphere that was apparent. I remember prayer that was so different than what you see today…people prostrate on the floor for hours, some weeping, some quiet. People were serious in those days, no monkeying around. One-quarter of the congregation were always on the mission field and nobody passed an offering plate–ever.

My mother has loosened up a bit since her old days, but we don’t see eye-to-eye on all matters of the faith. People and groups evolve. She listens to Word-Faith people now (an abomination in my eyes) and tries to command the storms and the weather. We had a tornado here some months ago and there was another about to hit. So she commanded it to go somewhere else and it went up near Dallas and killed four people. I accused her of manslaughter (heh-heh!), but she’s a sport.

I actually have a crucifix at home, but she didn’t say anything when she saw it. Then I got word from her that a Catholic friend of ours lost a son. So I sent word back that I prayed a rosary for her. Silence on the other end. (heh heh) Takes all kinds to make a world, huh? Wish I knew what goes through her head sometimes.

Even though my mother and I are a bit at odds on the faith thing, I can’t fault the early days and my grandmother’s faithfulness. My grandmother was an INCREDIBLE woman. She loved everybody and many people learned to love God because of her.

 

[glimmer]

hehe

OP = Origional Poster

ohhhh…I feel like an idiot now. Thanks.

 

[Contarini]

But I gotta tell you that these pre-Charismatic (but not Pentecostal either) days

Glimmer,

Why exactly do you describe this church as “not Pentecostal”? It sounds Pentecostal to me. There are many kinds of Pentecostals, you know.

Edwin

 

[glimmer]

Why exactly do you describe this church as “not Pentecostal”? It sounds Pentecostal to me. There are many kinds of Pentecostals, you know.

I think there’s a loose way to use that term and a strict way. They never used it of themselves. What we called Pentecostals didn’t want anything to do with them because they believed in a Trinity and also in eternal security. But because they believed the Holy Spirit could manifest, the Baptists ostracized them, too. That would probably not happen nowadays so much, but my mother grew up ostracized by everybody. We grew up as social outcasts. I feel much more acculturated to Baptist and Presbyterian services than to Pentecostal services, if we are talking about United Pentecostal.