Protestants and Wine: A Question

[Joel1984]

Interesting discussion. As a former SDA I was shocked to read in my bible that abstinence is not biblical at all. Two scriptures convinced me of this.

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
*[John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim./I]
John 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The word wine-oinos in this passage implies fermentation. As for the amount, I forget now but I remeber that it was alot, maybe 100’s of gallons. This next passage is too clear to miss.

[1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;/I]
1 Timothy 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1 Timothy 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Here Paul tells young Timothy that a Bishop must “not be given to wine” while a deacon is “not given to MUCH wine.” The Bishop holds a higher postion so a higher standard. It would be absurd to think Paul was telling Timothy that Bishops were not to be given to welch’s grape juice while deacons are not to be given to, too much welch’s grape juice.

Also I think it was elvisman that pointed out Jn 7 where they said Jesus came as a glutton and a wine bibber. It would be hard to say that if Jesus was drinking grape juice.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton*

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Grape juice is nothing new it is the base of wine.

So*** if they wanted to they could of drunk grape juice ***what they couldnt of drunk is pasteurized grape juice which is what Welch made

Your quotes are referring to the wrong parts. Here is why I said what I did, no twisting.

In your rabid attempt to disprove me, you actually gave good proof for Baptists, in fact ! I hadnt thought of it until you brought it up that the Baptists even had a point.

Now, ya never know, they could. I through **you **now see where they get their reasoning.

---

Its not mine and not even my discussion I was speaking about CAT’s response and mine regarding addictions not what you are speaking about. Im simply calling you out on it all.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

In your rabid attempt to disprove me, you actually gave good proof for Baptists, in fact ! I hadnt thought of it until you brought it up that the Baptists even had a point.

Now, ya never know, they could. I through **you **now see where they get their reasoning.

Actually it is still not a good point for Baptists, as the Bible states otherwise hence they are flawed in their reasoning.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Y​

Its not mine and not even my discussion I was speaking about CAT’s response and mine regarding addictions not what you are speaking about. Im simply calling you out on it all.

What does addiction have to do with the Real Presence?
If a person can not consume wine because they are alcoholics there is another valid form, the host.

Your not calling me out on anything.
If you believe that drinking grape juice is what Jesus did then your mistaken. If you think that drinking grape juice is an acceptable replacement for wine at the Eucharist you are mistaken.
And once again, if a baptist thinks grape juice is talked about in the bible they really need to pay more attention

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Interesting discussion. As a former SDA I was shocked to read in my bible that abstinence is not biblical at all. Two scriptures convinced me of this.

Here Paul tells young Timothy that a Bishop must “not be given to wine” while a deacon is “not given to MUCH wine.” The Bishop holds a higher postion so a higher standard. It would be absurd to think Paul was telling Timothy that Bishops were not to be given to welch’s grape juice while deacons are not to be given to, too much welch’s grape juice.

Also I think it was elvisman that pointed out Jn 7 where they said Jesus came as a glutton and a wine bibber. It would be hard to say that if Jesus was drinking grape juice.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton

Thats why we were speaking about addictions etc. Of course they were not drinking grape juice, it wasnt the practice of the day. Wine was what they drank.

Thats why it falls to sin and our guilt of it, thats why a person would not want wine, its a stumbling block. And we should not make someone partake of something that hurts them. Which is why he made the grape juice as a quality alternative.

Of course we are to be in control of ourselves and not exceed. But we are human and given to addictions, people will say oh if you love me or God you will give up your addiction. The reality of it is they sometimes cannot, as much as they may love someone, the addication controls them.

One thing you mention about abstinence is interesting however, if so then why do we practice it in other areas and thats allowed but not with alcohol???

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Thats why we were speaking about addictions etc. Of course they were not drinking grape juice, it wasnt the practice of the day. Wine was what they drank.

Thats why it falls to sin and our guilt of it, thats why a person would not want wine, its a stumbling block. And we should not make someone partake of something that hurts them. Which is why he made the grape juice as a quality alternative. BUT GRAPE JUICE IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE, that is the point!

Of course we are to be in control of ourselves and not exceed. But we are human and given to addictions, people will say oh if you love me or God you will give up your addiction. The reality of it is they sometimes cannot, as much as they may love someone, the addication controls them.

One thing you mention about abstinence is interesting however, if so then why do we practice it in other areas and thats allowed but not with alcohol???

you can abstain from the wine at the Eucharist, do you guys miss that point?

The church does not say that you HAVE to drink the wine. It says you can have the wine and host or just one of them.
So if you have issues with alcohol then just take the host.

 

[Sabda]

If you care to read up on Welch did you will find he went through alot of effort to produce just that.

In noticing you didn’t mention the stumbling portion of my comments. and just resort to the old nut that its symbolic and who cares.

If it causes your brother to sin then you shouldn’t do it, try reading Cats post maybe that may make sense to you and others.

I have read up on Welch. He created the grape juice because he, himself was an alcoholic. Welch was Methodist for the record. I think the major problem is that when Protestants have communion they take both the cup and the bread. They never seem to think about the possibility of taking just one. At least I have never heard of this happening in a Protestant church. For Catholics, this is not even an issue. If you have a problem with alcohol then simply refrain from the cup. Problem solved!

I think it’s really sad that Protestants(such as Baptist) have allowed this to became a stumbling block for themselves, and yes, it is a stumbling block for them. A very large stumbling block. One that is being passed down generation to generation.

God created the process by which wine is made and as such created the wine. When someone says that alcohol is evil/sinful what they are really saying is that what God has created is evil/sinful. God can NOT create evil! Things are not evil or sinful. ACTIONS are evil/sinful. What you do with God’s creation can be evil/sinful.

I read Cat’s post. What I got out of it is that this is a stumbling block that has kept her from the Lord. It has kept her from the Lord’s people. It is keeping her from participating in the Church. That is not a good thing.

This was another thing that jumped out at me:

I was thinking about what I would do if the Pope ORDERED Catholics to partake of the Precious Blood along with the Body of Christ.

I feel so strongly against alcohol (notice I said “feel”–this is a heart thing, not a mind thing) that I would refuse. Yes, I would.

She would disobey the Vicar of Christ. The one Christ himself chose. I don’t see how that would be pleasing to Christ. We are told to obey those who sit on the seat.

Honestly, it sounds to me like those who believe alcohol is sinful/evil are using that as an excuse to avoid dealing with their own stumbling block. At least Cat is willing to admit that this is a problem for her and that she is making progress. Many have not even made it that far.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Jesus didnt drive a car either.

So don’t drive a car in church.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Shelie

I think you do not understand the full weight of addiction or a persons response to it through a commitment.

Why is there abstaining from sex but not alcohol? This makes no sense. Its not a generational thing with Baptists its with individuals, some simply do not want alcohol no matter where it comes.

In Romans it says do not make your brother do what will cause him to stumble, thats all. If anyone understands the force of addiction they would understand this.

Also, like I said before it is not a statement to those that do drink wine if it be communional or not. Its not a reflection on them. Its for the weaker brother who needs lifting up.

And if it does bother one that others dont drink, then perhaps those can look within and ask the Lord why.

does that help?

 

[Sabda]

Shelie

I think you do not understand the full weight of addiction or a persons response to it through a commitment.

Why is there abstaining from sex but not alcohol? This makes no sense. Its not a generational thing with Baptists its with individuals, some simply do not want alcohol no matter where it comes.

In Romans it says do not make your brother do what will cause him to stumble, thats all. If anyone understands the force of addiction they would understand this.

Also, like I said before it is not a statement to those that do drink wine if it be communional or not. Its not a reflection on them. Its for the weaker brother who needs lifting up.

And if it does bother one that others don’t drink, then perhaps those can look within and ask the Lord why.

does that help?

If they don’t want to drink that’s fine. I personally only drink on rare occasions. The problem is they are saying not to do it because it’s a stumbling block. Alcohol is not the only thing you can be addicted too. There are many other things one can get addicted too.

Shopping can be addictive - so don’t do it, you’ll cause your brother to stumble.

eating, in particular sweets, can be addictive - so don’t do it, you will cause your brother to stumble.

Why do you do those things that others have an addiction to if your doing it will cause them to stumble? If you refrain from alcohol for the reason that it will cause someone to stumble than you must refrain from all things that people can get addicted so that you don’t cause someone to stumble. Otherwise you are contradicting yourself.

What they are saying is that since SOME, not all or even most, people have an issue with alcohol than that makes alcohol bad and therefore it must be avoided at all cost. Alcohol is not bad.

The Bible does NOT say to abstain from sex forever. It only says to do so at certain times, such as when one is not married. The Bible does not say that sex itself is bad. Do things in moderation and everything in it’s place and at the right time, as they say.

Oh, it just dawned on me. Sex is addictive therefore don’t do it because you’ll cause your brother to stumble.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Sabda; and et el

You are getting it. be it through sarcasm.

There is many things to be addicted to, some people have more of a addictive personality than other. Some things make us weak that wont make others weak. Thus why we need each other and no one is a island.

If shopping is a stumbling block to you, and I know this then I will not shop with you or invite you shopping.

This doesnt mean I will not shop, just not with you.

Its a guilt thing of sin, people think that just because I cant, they cant and thats not correct.

If sex is a problem with you, I would not speak of it around you. doesnt mean I will not do it.

This is holding up the weaker brother, this is what we are to do.

But people mix it up and think because someone cant, then they cant and thats not it.

Thus why it was covered in Romans.

 

[Alexius]

Please allow me to add to my post above.

I was thinking about what I would do if the Pope ORDERED Catholics to partake of the Precious Blood along with the Body of Christ.

I feel so strongly against alcohol (notice I said “feel”–this is a heart thing, not a mind thing) that I would refuse. Yes, I would.

I would have to go with my conscience and trust that the Lord would honor my intentions and see that my heart is tryinig to please Him.

Again, I’m not saying this to argue, but only to try to communicate with you about how teetotalling Christians FEEL so that you can better understand them and STOP trying to convince them that they are unBiblical. I absoluly agree with all who say that there is no sin in alcohol and that the Bible does not teach total abstinence–with my BRAIN I agree. But with my heart, I scream out against it.

BTW, there are Biblical passage where the virtues of wine and strong drink are extolled, and yes, Paul does tell Timothy to take a little wine for medicical purposes (not with dinner!). But there are no COMMANDS telling Christians that they MUST drink alcohol. Thank God for that, or I think there would be more people who would convert to Islam.

Well, I lost my father at a young age to alcohol poisoning. I obviously have mixed feelings toward it, but I do not believe it is inherently evil. It can be made evil just like most everything else when taken to excess. The fact that Christ made wine for a wedding (celebration) speaks worlds. Please do not turn this into the prime issue with which you would choose between Islam and Christianity… There are more important issues than this…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Joel1984]

Thats why we were speaking about addictions etc. Of course they were not drinking grape juice, it wasnt the practice of the day. Wine was what they drank.

Thats why it falls to sin and our guilt of it, thats why a person would not want wine, its a stumbling block. And we should not make someone partake of something that hurts them. Which is why he made the grape juice as a quality alternative.

Of course we are to be in control of ourselves and not exceed. But we are human and given to addictions, people will say oh if you love me or God you will give up your addiction. The reality of it is they sometimes cannot, as much as they may love someone, the addication controls them.

One thing you mention about abstinence is interesting however, if so then why do we practice it in other areas and thats allowed but not with alcohol???

I did not mean abstence was not allowed, what I meant was that abstance from wine is not commanded in scripture as my former church (SDA) tries to say.

As for the alcoholic, there is a couple of verses in proverbs…maybe around 20 that state for the person that tarries after wine not too even look at it. As for myself I am only 23 years old and have battled alcohol addiction from about the age of 18. I was hospitalized twice last year with pancreantitus due to excess drinking, lost many jobs, fines etc, so I know full well that alcohol can control a person even when they are in not great health.

Grape juice I think is a good alternative to use during the commuion service…maybe have both there.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I did not mean abstence was not allowed, what I meant was that abstance from wine is not commanded in scripture as my former church (SDA) tries to say.

As for the alcoholic, there is a couple of verses in proverbs…maybe around 20 that state for the person that tarries after wine not too even look at it. As for myself I am only 23 years old and have battled alcohol addiction from about the age of 18. I was hospitalized twice last year with pancreantitus due to excess drinking, lost many jobs, fines etc, so I know full well that alcohol can control a person even when they are in not great health.

Grape juice I think is a good alternative to use during the commuion service…maybe have both there.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton

Joel,
Are you saying have grape juice and wine at the Catholic Communion?

 

[SolaFide]

It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!

Frankly, I find the whole argument for NEVER drinking a ridiculous one. There are NO prohibitions against drinking in Scripture. There ARE however, several prohibitions against getting drunk. If you can’t do one without the other happening, don’t drink!

Secondly, the amount of wine question…the answer, as with all theological questions lies in the Scriptures:

Joh 2:3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
Joh 2:4 “Dear woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.”
Joh 2:5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Joh 2:6 **Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons. **
Joh 2:7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.
Joh 2:8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so,
Joh 2:9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside
Joh 2:10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”
Joh 2:11 This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

Six stone jars each capable of holding between 20 to 30 gallons of water! Jesus said to fill the jars! 6 times 20 equals 120 gallons minimum!

 

[PaulDupre]

Some people just can’t get it through their thick skulls that there is no requirement for Catholics to drink wine. I know a few recovering alcoholics in my parish, and they just take the host, but not the wine. Nobody cares. In fact, in my parish most older people take only the host (not that they’re alcoholics - they just prefer only the host).

One good friend is a recovering alcoholic and is also a Eucharistic Minister. He often distributes the precious blood (aka the wine) but does not partake of it. It doesn’t seem to bother him at all.

Paul

 

[SolaFide]

Some people just can’t get it through their thick skulls that there is no requirement for Catholics to drink wine. I know a few recovering alcoholics in my parish, and they just take the host, but not the wine. Nobody cares. In fact, in my parish most older people take only the host (not that they’re alcoholics - they just prefer only the host).

One good friend is a recovering alcoholic and is also a Eucharistic Minister. **He often distributes the precious blood **(aka the wine) but does not partake of it. It doesn’t seem to bother him at all.

Paul

Hmmmm…then those who don’t take the wine aren’t really getting the full blessing then are they…that is if it really is the blood of Christ.

And if were blood and not wine, what difference would it make to a recovering alcoholic anyway to drink blood?

 

[PaulDupre]

Hmmmm…then those who don’t take the wine aren’t really getting the full blessing then are they…that is if it really is the blood of Christ.

Of course they are. Each species of the eucharist (the bread and the wine) becomes the complete body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus.

You get the full “real presence” in either species.

And if were blood and not wine, what difference would it make to a recovering alcoholic anyway to drink blood?

You do not understand transubstantiation. The essence of bread and wine becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. But the “accidents” (the outward appearance and physical characteristics) of bread and wine remain - the alcohol included.

There have been times when the accidents have changed as well - appearing as real flesh and blood. These are sometimes called “eucharistic miracles”, but that is a misnomer. The real miracle is when the accidents are preserved as bread and wine while the nature and substance is changed to Christ’s body and blood.

Paul

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I did not mean abstence was not allowed, what I meant was that abstance from wine is not commanded in scripture as my former church (SDA) tries to say.

yes I agree

As for the alcoholic, there is a couple of verses in proverbs…maybe around 20 that state for the person that tarries after wine not too even look at it. As for myself I am only 23 years old and have battled alcohol addiction from about the age of 18. I was hospitalized twice last year with pancreantitus due to excess drinking, lost many jobs, fines etc, so I know full well that alcohol can control a person even when they are in not great health.

Grape juice I think is a good alternative to use during the commuion service…maybe have both there.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton

Im sorry to hear about your battles, but I guess its a praise God that you are coming along. It tends to “run” in my family and myself realise I am a dry drunk. My father and father in law struggled with alochol. I recentely buried my cousin who was actually recieving addiction counseling from the good people at the Salvation Army church. Have you ever heard the song by Third Day “Cry out to Jesus”?

They had sung that 2 wks before my cousin died, and she had requested the words. That song took on more meaning when I found that out. Anyway, you are on a good path, stick with it, you will not regret it.

I think only those who know a struggle in some way can only understand how much a blessing it could be for that grape juice.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I think only those who know a struggle in some way can only understand how much a blessing it could be for that grape juice.

but that is all it is, grape juice, no Real Presence in grape juice