Protestants and Wine: A Question

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Kitty Chan,
I already had it as several others did. šŸ™‚ I did not type my post in sarcasm, I’m sorry if it came off that way.

The problem is that they take St Paul’s teaching in Roman’s too far when it comes to alcohol. The teaching is, if drinking alcohol in front of your brother causes him to sin than do not drink in front of him. What some Baptist say is that if drinking alcohol in front of your brother causes him to sin than do not drink it at all. That’s not what St Paul said.

Romans 14
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; still, it is unclean for someone who thinks it unclean.
15 If your brother is being hurt by what you eat, your conduct is no longer in accord with love. Do not because of your food destroy him for whom Christ died.
16 So do not let your good be reviled.
17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy Spirit;
18whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by others.
19Let us 4 then pursue what leads to peace and to building up one another.
20For the sake of food, do not destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to become a stumbling block by eating;
21it is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
22Keep the faith (that) you have to yourself in the presence of God; blessed is the one who does not condemn himself for what he approves.
23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because this is not from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. 5
If all food is clean and it is not a stumbling block for you, than you do not need to abstain from it. If it is a stumbling block for you, than yes abstain. If it is a stumbling block for someone you know than abstain in front of them.

Why is it when it comes to this teaching that that Baptist single out alcohol as something you have to abstain from period?
 
It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, ā€œWell, we really don’t know whether the ā€˜wine’ was fermented or notā€¦ā€ and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!
Ask them how Lot’s daughters were able to get him under the influence of ā€œgrape juiceā€ so that he could impregnate them without him remembering a thing.

I’ve read that Jews think that the whole grape juice thing is hilarious.

Once again, the grape juice folks are straining the gnat and swallowing the camel.
 
Why is it when it comes to this teaching that that Baptist single out alcohol as something you have to abstain from period?
Because hickory smoked pork bbq is too good to give up!!
 
Kitty Chan,
I already had it as several others did. šŸ™‚ I did not type my post in sarcasm, I’m sorry if it came off that way.
you are doing fine, no worries
The problem is that they take St Paul’s teaching in Roman’s too far when it comes to alcohol. The teaching is, if drinking alcohol in front of your brother causes him to sin than do not drink in front of him. What some Baptist say is that if drinking alcohol in front of your brother causes him to sin than do not drink it at all. That’s not what St Paul said.
If all food is clean and it is not a stumbling block for you, than you do not need to abstain from it. If it is a stumbling block for you, than yes abstain. If it is a stumbling block for someone you know than abstain in front of them.
Why is it when it comes to this teaching that that Baptist single out alcohol as something you have to abstain from period?
It is their choice and response to what they consider important. Just as Catholics feel condoms are wrong, same reasons its important to them.

It came from addication, so its better to avoid all than be tempted. Do they all need to do so?? probably not, but they as a group have decided to do so. All groups practice some sort of ā€œshouldnt do thisā€. The thing is, to respect each other in these kinds of decisions. Thats what Romans is really getting at, to remember to see the person.

I know Catholics say one can do either or with regard to Eucharist. But maybe someone wants all they can and feel ā€œlessā€ if they dont. If in a Catholic church there was grape juice, it would still be the blood no matter what. I kinda dont know what the fuss is but thats me.

But Im weird, see I have always understood it to be the body and blood. No matter what church. So I guess to me its irrevelant how it starts out. But thats been a long conversation with Pax and I dont want to chew it over again, I guess Im a closet catholic even though I didnt know 😃
 
It came from addication, so its better to avoid all than be tempted. Do they all need to do so?? probably not, but they as a group have decided to do so. All groups practice some sort of ā€œshouldnt do thisā€. The thing is, to respect each other in these kinds of decisions.
There’s nothing wrong with not drinking.
Thats what Romans is really getting at, to remember to see the person.
Just as there is no need for me to do the sign of the cross at a Baptist Church.
If in a Catholic church there was grape juice, it would still be the blood no matter what.
Not quite.
 
Just as there is no need for me to do the sign of the cross at a Baptist Church.
I think you should be able to if you want, when I go to my friends catholic church I dont cause I mess it up, but I have figured out when to stand and sit and respond to the priest 😃
My other friend when Im at her charasmatic church I dont fall down either. 🤷 One time someone said your standing there with your arms crossed you are deflecting the Holy Spirit. so to make her happy I put them behind my back. People worry about such odd things.
Not quite.
Im weird in that area, I warned ya šŸ˜‰ In the Baptist church I went to it was Blood and Body nothing less. Im saying that IF it was juice, at a Catholic, Id still see Blood.

I always thought scripture on that was pretty clear. 🤷 imagine my surprise when I came here and found out Baptists were not supposed to think that way!
 
This is an interesting conversation to me. Most of my friends are baptist. I’d say about 80% drink alcohol. My friend’s husband is a baptist pastor. We have had alcohol at social gatherings with them, although they do not drink. (Both have history of alcoholism.) I know that baptists are known for not drinking, but I have not experienced as much of that as others on this board have.

That said, the one thing I like about baptists having grape juice is that it removes temptation for alcohilcs. Like Paul said, do not drink in front of your brother if it causes him to be tempted. (Did I get that verse paraphrase SOMEWHAT correctly??) In churhc, you are drinking wine in front of many alcoholic brothers. I think that violates that verse. But, that’s just me.
 
It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, ā€œWell, we really don’t know whether the ā€˜wine’ was fermented or notā€¦ā€ and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!
The problem is that yayin, the word translated as ā€œwineā€ in the Bible can be either fermented wine or unfermented wine, so the only real way to tell which it is is to examine the context of the thread.
 
The problem is that yayin, the word translated as ā€œwineā€ in the Bible can be either fermented wine or unfermented wine, so the only real way to tell which it is is to examine the context of the thread.
ā€œFruit of the vine,ā€ you mean? It seems that the logical objections raised early on in this thread by others would discredit this notion. Feel free to look them over again and offer your thoughts.

To say that the fermentation process was hindered in the Palestinian environment seems a little bit of a stretch to me now…
 
Once again, I want to repeat that I agree WITH MY BRAIN that there is no sin in drinking alcoholic beverages.

But with MY HEART, I believe it is evil.

Again, I will try to describe how I grew up and was trained. I am NOT doing this to convince you that I’m right and you’re wrong. I agree–YOU’RE right! Alcohol is fine.

But you will never convince me of that. You can throw verse after verse at me, and it won’t make a difference in my heart. It’s something inside, something that has been part of my personality since babyhood.

Please read on and try to understand. And I suggest that many of your non-drinking ā€œBaptistā€ friends have simliar life stories.

My parents didn’t drink; NO ONE in my family drank. I went to family reunions, picnics, dinners, etc. throughout my childhood and teenage years and NEVER EVER saw ANYONE drink anything other than milk, water, coffee, tea, Kool Aid, and pop.

Actually, there have been two family members who drank. BOTH of these people DIED of alcohol-related disease before they were 50.

My father is 73, and looks like he is in his 50s. He takes absolutely no meds. His cholesterol, blood pressure, heart, etc. are all a young man’s. He is an abstinent man in all areas (I don’t know about sex, but I think he is celibate since my mother died).

Many of our relatives are or have been hardy and healthy just like him.

He would say that this is because of his moderate lifestyle and his abstinence from drinking and smoking.

Yes, I know that there are good genes, too, but considering that the few drinkers in our family croaked young, I would say that our family’s good genes probably have a condition–abstinent living in all things. Why should I challenge the DNA that the Lord has given me, especially for something that smells like horse ****, makes you cough and sneeze, and tastes like medicine?

I can get a good buzz having sex with my husband, or watching my favorite actor, or reading a great book, or simply enjoying a lively conversation with loved ones. I don’t need alcohol.

One more time, I urge you to NOT get into this argument with your ā€œBaptistā€ non-drinking friends. You will run into a brick wall. Yes, you may be able to convince their MINDS that the Bible teaches that drinking alcohol is OK. (They are sola Scriptura advocates, and if you can present an adequte apology and Scriptural exegesis, they will eventually agree with you.) But you will NOT convince their hearts. And if you do, there is a good possibility that you will be convincing a potential alcoholic, someone who is looking for an excuse to drink. Then you will bear the guilt for their downfall. PLEASE don’t do it. Just talk about other things, and accept your ā€œBaptistā€ friends for who they are.

BTW, yes, there is a tendency for many Protestant churches, including Baptist, to allow drinking among their members. I have recently been involved with a discussion about this on a Protestant online board. As usual in Protestant circle, this has caused a tremendous anger on both sides, and is dividing their churches. My parents-in-law, both of whom are in poor health, have a frig full of wine and beer now. It’s shocking to me and my husband, because while we were growing up (we started dating young), they went along with their Pentecostal church teachings against alcohol.

But we see it all the time–Protestants who drink. It is very controversial among Protestants and is causing further division.

Finally, someone asked if I have the same objection to gluttony. First, I am obese, and I do not gorge myself. Many obese people eat quite normally, but they don’t burn the calories the way the thin people do. And many do have poor eating habits, but they are definitely not gluttons. Many of us are working on improving our eating habits (I’ve been on South Beach since Labor Day), and many are getting healthier. But it doesn’t happen overnight. Please seek to have better understanding of obesity and gluttony before making inflammatory statements. Many gluttons are NOT obese. Think about that.

But the real answer to the question about whether I’m offended by gluttony is, ā€œNot as much, because gluttons DON’T KILL PEOPLE WHEN THEY DRIVE FULL.ā€

I had a beloved great uncle and aunt killed by a stinkin’ drunk driver. He is alive and free, they are in their graves.

Many others have lost loved ones to the evil of alcohol, not just through drunk driving, but through other abusive behaviors.

Again, I agree with you in my brain that alcohol is OK, but I can’t separate drinking from sin. I just can’t do it. My heart won’t allow me to make a distinction. As far as I’m concerned, the world would be a much lovelier place without alcoholic beverages.
 
Please allow me to make another observation about alcohol. I ask that those of you who are pro-life and pro-children please think about my words.

Your kids are dying of alcohol misuse.

My daughter is a student at SLU in St. Louis. During the opening week of school, dozens of parties involving underaged students and alcohol were busted.

She was so discouraged in her freshman and sophomore years. She had hoped to make friends. Instead, she saw that most of the students were there to drink and throw up.

So she made friends OFF campus, with the families in her skating rink.

The male students at SLU were especially pathetic, poor excuses for men. Their parents should be ashamed. Our daughter, who is a babe (she was a runner up in several beauty pageants) said that all the men at SLU want to do is party til they puke. She was disgusted.

Now that she is a Senior and all these losers have dropped out, she is much happier.

But this is the same story at colleges and universities and even high schools all over the U.S. Your kids are drinking and many of them aren’t doing well with it. Some have died, and many are on the road to full-blown alcoholism. Many couples get involved with pre-marital sex because their inhibitions have been lowered by alcohol.

And you say you’re pro-life? You say you believe in children?

Then why are you saying it’s OK for them to abuse alcohol?

Yes, I know, you trained them to use alcohol wisely. But apparently, your lessons didn’t work and aren’t working.

You won’t ever see ME, or anyone in my teetotalling family, kill someone because we are driving under the influence of alcohol. You won’t ever see my husband rape a woman because he is under the influence. You won’t ever see me jump off a building because I am under the influence.

Again, I hope that this ā€œrantā€ gives you an idea of the ā€œheartā€ of your teetotalling friends. You are fighting a losing battle to try to debate with them that alcohol is not sinful. Just give it up and accept them. And consider what they (and I) are saying. Then ask yourself, ā€œWHY is alcohol important enough to you that you would never consider giving it up?ā€
 
No one has given a correct answer as to Baptist do not drink alcoholic beverages.
Alcohol is a drug, an additive drug. People who become addicted to alcohol not only ruin their own lives but also the lives of those who love them. Alcohol also destroys the human body. the bible says that your body is the temple of the living God. there you have the first sin caused by alcohol.
You might say that you can have a beer now and then and not become an alcoholic. Well, maybe you can but then again maybe you can not.
Giving a kid a sip of wine now and then for the sake of religion is only starting themon the road to becoming a full fledged alcoholic.
I can tell you stories about eighteen and ninteen year old kids that came into the Army and thought that they could handle liquor and went home alcoholic
 
allischalmers

People always say this kind of thing is over the top, but I have your back on this, because its not. Of course everyone it doesnt affect all people, but to those that it does its awful.
 
Cat

a wonderful post, nicely explained.

I was thinking ā€œjust because you can, doesnt mean you shouldā€

šŸ™‚

Your family is a fantastic example.
 
Read the 2nd section of post 66, I explain myself there, you do not need to be horrified, its ok 😃
What are you Baptist? Or are you a poorly taught Catholic?:confused:
If a poorly taught Catholic then yeah a HORRIFIED look is what is called for!
 
What are you Baptist? Or are you a poorly taught Catholic?:confused:
If a poorly taught Catholic then yeah a HORRIFIED look is what is called for!
Im nothing, no home, never had one really. hung out with Baptists for several yrs. I also attend a Catholic with my best friend on occasion.

As for the Body and Blood, even though I went to a Baptist I always thought of it as that. I guess I just took God at His Word and never asked anyone about it. I genuinely thought everyone took it the same way.

Then I came here and found out they probably didnt. 🤷

see Im weird 😃

actually had a very long talk with Pax here and he helped me immensely sorting out my confusion as you could well imagine I had. How to be of catholic thought without going there. . . .

šŸ™‚
 
Im nothing, no home, never had one really. hung out with Baptists for several yrs. I also attend a Catholic with my best friend on occasion.
OK.
As for the Body and Blood, even though I went to a Baptist I always thought of it as that. I guess I just took God at His Word and never asked anyone about it. ** I genuinely thought everyone took it the same way**.
Not at all.
Then I came here and found out they probably didnt. 🤷

see Im weird 😃
Not weird just not knowledgeable on what Catholics hold to be the truth
actually had a very long talk with Pax here and he helped me immensely sorting out my confusion as you could well imagine I had. How to be of catholic thought without going there. . . .

šŸ™‚
Glad to hear it. šŸ™‚
 
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