Protestants and Wine: A Question

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It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!
 
The_Truthinator said:
It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!
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Crushed grapes begin the fermentation process as soon as they are crushed, it’s a natural process. (Sometimes even before that.) To stop this natural process, grape juice must be pasturized.
 
Not all protestants are anti-wine. In fact I think few are. The Baptist church I used to go to defended their position saying that the taste of wine maight cause a struggling alcoholic to fall into sin. This is why they used grape juice in communion. None of the other protestant churches I went to had any problem with wine. In fact, many of the people drank as much wine as a ‘good Catholic priest’! lol
 
The_Truthinator said:
It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!
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A jug holds about 33 gal.
 
**Luke 7:****33 **- 35:
***For John the Baptist came neither eating food nor drinking wine, and you said, ‘He is possessed by a demon.’ ***
**The Son of Man came eating and drinking and you said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ **
But wisdom is vindicated by all her children.
If Jesus hadn’t consumed fermented wine, they would have no reason to accuse him of being a drunkard, now would they?

Jesus also MADE wine.
What did the headwaiter tell the groom in John 2:10?
"Everyone serves good wine first, and then when people have drunk freely, an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine until now."
You can’t fool sober people with cheaper wine.
 
The_Truthinator said:
some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here?
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It is such utter absurdity to suggest that the wine was alcohol-free.
You will find that there is little point in trying to use rational arguments with people determined to construct their own little fantasy worlds. You end up arguing the toss about whether some Sicilian mention in oman literature did or did not make a juice from raisins. If you read the Bible, the answer is obvious.
 
The_Truthinator said:
It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well
as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!
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Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. -1 Tim 5:13

12Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?” 13Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.”
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!
-Acts 2
Also see places like Gn 9:21; 1 Sam 1:13-15; Is 5:11, etc
 
No doubt it was wine in Jesus’ time.

But “let no man judge you in meat or drink…”. Yet, Paul also says if something offends his brother he would rather avoid that thing forever for sake of his weaker brother’s conscience. What is good for one person may not be good for another.

Although Jesus drank wine, and made wine, we can be certain that He was never drunk since drunkeness is a sin - regardless of what He was accused of. Some people believe that no amount of wine is a “safe” amount and so cannot imagine Jesus drinking at all. If one believes any alcohol is a sin they will certainly reject the idea of Jesus taking part in it.
 
My memory is so spotty. It’s strange the things one remembers. One memory that’s still vivid in my mind after what must be 33 years or so is my Baptist pastor talking about people who drank alcohol excusing it by saying that, after all, Jesus himself drank wine. “That’s BLASPHEMY!!” came his roaring refutation. At the tender age of whatever I was, pre-high school to be certain, I remember thinking, “No, pastor, that’s in the Bible. Which is what we’re supposed to believe, right?”

Tee-totalling is an English-speaking phenomenon from the ninteenth century. So is Fundamentalism, come to think of it. Can’t worry about what those folks think. They’ll be scandalized by one thing or another.
 
JoyToBeCatholic said:
No doubt it was wine in Jesus’ time.

But “let no man judge you in meat or drink…”. Yet, Paul also says if something offends his brother he would rather avoid that thing forever for sake of his weaker brother’s conscience. What is good for one person may not be good for another.

Although Jesus drank wine, and made wine, we can be certain that He was never drunk since drunkeness is a sin - regardless of what He was accused of. Some people believe that no amount of wine is a “safe” amount and so cannot imagine Jesus drinking at all. If one believes any alcohol is a sin they will certainly reject the idea of Jesus taking part in it.
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It was pretty far into the party when they ran out of wine and Jesus brewed up a fresh batch for them. 😉
 
Most Baptist churches do in fact require their members to abstain from wine and other alcoholic beverages. In doing so, they stand in direct contradiction of the Biblical instruction, “let no man judge you in food or in drink” (Col. 2:16), and expose their requirement of abstinence as a “doctrine of men” (Col. 2:22) from which Christians ought rightly to be set at liberty.

Do Baptists wish to make a sinner of our Lord Jesus Christ, who both made wine (Jo. 2:3-10) and drank wine (Mat. 11:19, Lk. 7:34)? Did Jesus come to cause the Christian to stumble? Out of the question! Do the Baptists forget that the Apostle Paul counseled his protégé Timothy to drink wine (1 Tim. 5:23)?

Some Baptists will point out that they, as a church, seek to follow the example of John the Baptist, who did not drink wine. Do they forget that the baptism of John the Baptist was superseded by the baptism of Jesus Christ (John 3:22-4:2, Acts 19:3-5), who made and drank wine, and whose disciples drank wine?
 
Linnyo said:
Not all protestants are anti-wine. In fact I think few are. The Baptist church I used to go to defended their position saying that the taste of wine maight cause a struggling alcoholic to fall into sin. This is why they used grape juice in communion. None of the other protestant churches I went to had any problem with wine. In fact, many of the people drank as much wine as a ‘good Catholic priest’! lol
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I think that if memory serves me right, when I very young, I was told that the idea of the struggling alcoholic is why it isn’t used…
JoyToBeCatholic said:
No doubt it was wine in Jesus’ time.

But “let no man judge you in meat or drink…”. Yet, Paul also says if something offends his brother he would rather avoid that thing forever for sake of his weaker brother’s conscience. What is good for one person may not be good for another.

Although Jesus drank wine, and made wine, we can be certain that He was never drunk since drunkeness is a sin - regardless of what He was accused of. Some people believe that no amount of wine is a “safe” amount and so cannot imagine Jesus drinking at all. If one believes any alcohol is a sin they will certainly reject the idea of Jesus taking part in it.
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Or even worse: Believing He wasn’t sinless!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
Heres a thought why cant it be either? Welch did make his juice top quality to replace wine. It bothered them to drink alcohol.

If we are not to be stumbling blocks to one another, why is it insisted that someone drink alcohol when they have said they will not? The alcohol bothers them plain and simple.

The wine and the juice are both the blood whether one thinks of them symbolicaly or not. They are both still the blood and thats what the whole point is.

🙂
 
Kitty_Chan said:
Heres a thought why cant it be either? Welch did make his juice top quality to replace wine. It bothered them to drink alcohol.

If we are not to be stumbling blocks to one another, why is it insisted that someone drink alcohol when they have said they will not? The alcohol bothers them plain and simple.

The wine and the juice are both the blood whether one thinks of them symbolicaly or not. They are both still the blood and thats what the whole point is.

🙂
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But now I have to think too hard…:rolleyes: 😉

Traditionally, wine has always been used…🤷
 
**some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.
**

Grape juice, without refrigeration, pasteurization, or preservatives in that climate (or just about any, for that matter) will do one of two things:
  1. It will become wine.
  2. It will become vinegar.
They are natural processes and they are not stopped until the alcohol reaches a level that kills the yeast, which is floating around in the air and lands on the skins while the fruit grows.
 
I have cut and copied my post from another thread in CA. The topic is a little different (someone had asked for advice in dealing with teetotalling Protestant friends), but I hope that this post will help you to understand the HEART of your Protestant friends. Even if you disagree with them about alcohol, I urge you to drop this issue and just accept who they are.
I would not get into this argument. You will only alienate them further against Catholicism and make it difficult for the next Catholic who meets them.

I was raised Baptist and I converted to Catholicism in 2004 along with my husband (he was raised Assemblies of God).

I was raised in a family of total abstainers. The only alcohol we drink is vanilla extract in cooking, and if there were alcohol-free vanilla extract, we would buy it.

I admit with my brain and mind that the there is no sin in drinking alcohol, but I cannot admit this with my heart. In my deepest heart of hearts, I believe that alcohol is evil and a killer.

Believe it or not, this was one of my biggest stumbling blocks to becoming Catholic, and still is. I will not attend my church picnics or other dinners because there is alcohol. I will attend my “Why Catholic” group potluck on Monday night, but I will hate the alcohol (not the drinkers, just their disgusting drink that smells like horse pee).

You can present all the arguments you want from the Bible or otherwise in favor of alcohol consumption, and I will agree that you are right. But I cannot bring myself to ever, ever accept alcohol as something that Christians or anyone should have anything to do with. I abhor it.

The only way that I will ever accept alcohol as non-sinful with my heart is if the Lord Himself performs a complete heart transplant. There is progress. I am at least able to be around people who are drinking alcohol now, although I still try not to breathe in the fumes.

What I’m trying to communicate to you is that your Baptist pals will probably feel the same way I do. You can argue until you drop dead, but they will never, ever be able to accept alcohol as something good, and they will avoid you and Catholicism even more if you try to argue with them. Even if they, like me, accept the correctness of what you are saying, they will cry inside.

So I think it would be better to choose a different battleground for a pro-Catholic encounter. Why choose one that will never be won?

I hope this post sounded charitable. I am using strong language in places, but I am only doing it to try to reveal to you the hearts that you are arguing against. I wish you well as you continue to witness about our faith and our Church.
 
Please allow me to add to my post above.

I was thinking about what I would do if the Pope ORDERED Catholics to partake of the Precious Blood along with the Body of Christ.

I feel so strongly against alcohol (notice I said “feel”–this is a heart thing, not a mind thing) that I would refuse. Yes, I would.

I would have to go with my conscience and trust that the Lord would honor my intentions and see that my heart is tryinig to please Him.

Again, I’m not saying this to argue, but only to try to communicate with you about how teetotalling Christians FEEL so that you can better understand them and STOP trying to convince them that they are unBiblical. I absoluly agree with all who say that there is no sin in alcohol and that the Bible does not teach total abstinence–with my BRAIN I agree. But with my heart, I scream out against it.

BTW, there are Biblical passage where the virtues of wine and strong drink are extolled, and yes, Paul does tell Timothy to take a little wine for medicical purposes (not with dinner!). But there are no COMMANDS telling Christians that they MUST drink alcohol. Thank God for that, or I think there would be more people who would convert to Islam.
 
The_Truthinator said:
It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

!
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NONSENSE NONSENSE NONSENSE!!! Not only is that patently ignorant, it’s stupid as well (okay so redundant). You don’t need to know anything about the Bible to understand that prior to refrigeration, there’s a miraculously natural process that occurs when you crush grapes and leave them out. Either, you get vinegar and some undrinkable liquid because the “undesirable” bacteria take hold or you get wine. And there was good reason for using wine as a staple. First, because of its antibacterial properties (which it would not have without the alcohol) and second because the Mediterranean regions are well suited to grape growing.

There are some marvelous books out there that go through the history of beer, mead and wine making and all say the same. I highly recommend these for anyone interested in fermentation. Brewing Mead: Wassail! In Mazers of Mead by Robert Gayre is an excellent history of mead making (which predates wine) and the First Steps in Winemaking: A Complete Month-By-Month Guide to Winemaking by C. J. J. Berry gives a nice overview of winemaking.

I have always said, Protestants may dislike the Catholic Church, but we wouldn’t have beer or chocolate as we know it without those monks and nuns. (And don’t trust any Baptist’s take on wine and beer.)
 
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