Protestants and Wine: A Question

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**To take ‘power’ away from the Church, the protestants had to reject the authority of both the pope and bishops as the Teaching Magisterium. Then, they had to reject the priesthood. Then you reject the Mass as the unbloody sacrifice of Christ in perpetuity. Then, if that isn’t enough, you make the Church ‘invisible’ - that it really doesn’t exist here on earth but only in heaven.

When you run into the problem as to why there are so many protestant sects, the next thing you do is postulate that only belief in Christ is important, and THAT is the foundation of ALL salvation - no sacraments, etc. And that belief is what unites everyone under the umbrella of an invisible church.**

🤷
 
Well, let it be grape juice. It still doesn;t say in the Bible that I can’t have Crown Royal or Kentuky Burbon:thumbsup:
 
Kitty_Chan said:
If its on faith that it is the blood of Jesus, then why what it is content wise does it matter?? As it changes to His blood anyway. I find this a odd standoff that seems to have no end.

:banghead:
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The content matters KittyChan becuase Jesus said so. I mean if really think about it, The last supper, and tell me that he told us to drink welches grape juice or something else absurd.

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Kitty_Chan said:
Et el

It has been discussed that wine is what it was. Welch came along later and made the grape juice we know today. They didnt have it back in the day.

So,… I wonder if Baptists or whoever start resorting to Jesus drank wine because this conversation never ends. Its been explained about addictions, it appears to fall on deaf ears.

It can weaken some others to take alcohol, we are instructed to hold up one another, by forcing the issue of wine, how can we be holding up the brother???

Its explained it is a commitment that some people do not want to partake of the alcohol for various reasons, some it affects themselves, some as a example to others.

It is similar to not taking birth control, eating particular foods on certain days, pick one theres a few. Why is it ok to abstain from sex but not alcohol??? :confused:

If its on faith that it is the blood of Jesus, then why what it is content wise does it matter?? As it changes to His blood anyway. I find this a odd standoff that seems to have no end.

Its only use is to supply fodder for EACH side to argue. No good will come of this arguement. Cat said that several pages ago.

There is no logical sense in this. And certainly no understanding for a weaker brothers situations.

:banghead:
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The problem I have is that it seems like wine was made the focus to the exclusion of all the other addictions a person could have. It seems like they say “oh, your addiction is not all that important because it is not one of alcohol. Tough luck!” 😦 If this really were about the addiction aspect than they would focus on ALL addictions and not just simply one. They would go to the exact same extremes on all those other addictions as they do the alcohol. But they don’t. People with a non-alcoholic addiction need just as much help as those who have an alcoholic addiction. Wouldn’t you agree?
 
Sabda said:
The problem I have is that it seems like wine was made the focus to the exclusion of all the other addictions a person could have. It seems like they say “oh, your addiction is not all that important because it is not one of alcohol. Tough luck!” 😦 If this really were about the addiction aspect than they would focus on ALL addictions and not just simply one. They would go to the exact same extremes on all those other addictions as they do the alcohol. But they don’t. People with a non-alcoholic addiction need just as much help as those who have an alcoholic addiction. Wouldn’t you agree?
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Are you kidding? Baptists dont dance either theres alot of donts there. They do cover addiction as a whole. Its not just the alcohol addiction. Its just alcohol because its the topic of the thread which is wine.

btw the funny thing is in their attempt “not to be too Catholic” you know on account of the rules, they end up making up rules anyway. Word Faith is the same way, another friend goes there, well did.

Also you mention extremes, its not just Baptists there are a few. There is even a thread on Mormans and coffee, Utah is a dry state.

All Im saying is what about the weaker brother. If it bothers them then, dont make them do it. Not you or anyone else, them.

ralphinal said *Well, let it be grape juice. It still doesn;t say in the Bible that **I can’t have *Crown Royal or Kentuky Burbon

Im not picking on her but this is the point and only point, its not about her its about the addict.

We are all bent to internalize this to ourselves,** its not about us**, *its about the weaker brother *we are to hold up.

I will say it in so many words, if you drink its ok, but dont expect someone with addiction problems to drink with you.

🙂
 
wifeandmomoftwo said:
The content matters KittyChan becuase Jesus said so. I mean if really think about it, The last supper, and tell me that he told us to drink welches grape juice or something else absurd.
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I see your still not getting it. Ask yourself why this little ole protestant beleives in the Eucharist? When she was never taught that?

Its like youre trying to stop me believing that its Jesus Blood, why can you not understand? I have never in my life seen anything other than His Blood. I dont see it as juice or even wine, can you please try to understand this.

It has been, and will always be His Body and Blood and nothing else.

Its because I did listen to Him, He said This is My Blood. I beleived Him.

🙂
 
peary said:
**To take ‘power’ away from the Church, the protestants had to reject the authority of both the pope and bishops as the Teaching Magisterium. Then, they had to reject the priesthood. Then you reject the Mass as the unbloody sacrifice of Christ in perpetuity. Then, if that isn’t enough, you make the Church ‘invisible’ - that it really doesn’t exist here on earth but only in heaven.

When you run into the problem as to why there are so many protestant sects, the next thing you do is postulate that only belief in Christ is important, and THAT is the foundation of ALL salvation - no sacraments, etc. And that belief is what unites everyone under the umbrella of an invisible church.**

🤷
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peary if this is directed to me then please go back to post 91 and reread, try reading between the lines. Im agreeing with you fellow not space traveller. 😃
 
Originally Posted by **Kitty Chan **Et el:

*It has been discussed that wine is what it was. Welch came along later and made the grape juice we know today. They didnt have it back in the day.

So,… I wonder if Baptists or whoever start resorting to Jesus drank wine because this conversation never ends. Its been explained about addictions, it appears to fall on deaf ears.

It can weaken some others to take alcohol, we are instructed to hold up one another, by forcing the issue of wine, how can we be holding up the brother???

Its explained it is a commitment that some people do not want to partake of the alcohol for various reasons, some it affects themselves, some as a example to others.*

**I think one of the major reasons for this had been defined by the Church early on due to missionary work. You could not take the wine with you as it would spoil. You could not take leavened bread with you because it would rot. So, theologically, as the Eucharist became linked with the Passover meal or “last supper” as they say, the Church determined that unleavened bread had very little spoilage when taken to remote areas, and that the body, blood, soul, and Divinity of Christ was present wholly and substantially in the Eucharist. The long-term effect on these decisions was that in the case of alcoholism, people are not required to receive under both species.

According to the Church, an alcoholic priest may simply partake of the host and refrain drinking from the chalice. Nevertheless, ordinaries may grant permission to use *must *or *mustum *to alcoholic priests who cannot ingest even the smallest quantity of alcohol. For this permission the priest must present a medical certificate.

Those who receive permission to use mustum are ordinarily prohibited from presiding at concelebrated Masses. But the Church provides for some exceptions. In such a case the alcoholic who presides may use mustum for his own Communion but he is to provide another chalice in which normal wine has been consecrated for the other celebrants. An alcoholic priest offering Mass in a parish setting would consecrate regular altar wine for the Communion of the people if Communion is to be distributed under both forms.

While insisting that it must be wine that is used for the Eucharist, some writers state that as soon as grapes are crushed the juice is on the way to fermentation (in the process of becoming wine) and will continue fermenting unless something is done to stop it. They say, therefore, that fresh juice from grapes, to which nothing has been added, would be valid matter.

Such grape juice whose fermentation has been suspended by freezing, or other methods which do not alter its nature, is called mustum. In the case of an alcoholic priest, the Church instructs that the preferred solution to his problem in celebrating would be for him to communicate himself by intinction (dipping the host in the consecrated wine or mustum). **

The Church has provided ample opportunities to get around the problem(s). People will ignore these just because they can and think they know better. Again, it’s “all about me” in the final analysis.
 
peary said:
I So, theologically, as the Eucharist became linked with the Passover meal or “last supper” as they say, the Church determined that unleavened bread had very little spoilage when taken to remote areas, and that the body, blood, soul, and Divinity of Christ was present wholly and substantially in the Eucharist. The long-term effect on these decisions was that in the case of alcoholism, people are not required to receive under both species.

So because of that missionary work it left open a option for those that are alcoholic for instance. But and I realise its not your decision or mine but yrs of church tradition, if they made the allowance for that, why couldnt they make a allowance for the juice. Or probably knowing humans it became a thorn issue (look at the thread here) and didnt become a option for juice.

However, on a side note, If I went to a Catholic church and its allowed for me to take the host but not the wine. So thats confusing to me. But sorta happy knowing that its considered both. Anyway thats off topic I guess.
According to the Church, an alcoholic priest may simply partake of the host and refrain drinking from the chalice. Nevertheless, ordinaries may grant permission to use *must *
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So is this mustum able to be kept? how is it different than the grape juice? just the pasturazation I wonder?

I wonder if its keepable why Welch bothered, but on the other hand it was a pretty good invention, I do like grape juice for breaky. 🙂

Thanks for the explaination, it figures that the Catholic church had it figured, I notice they generally have thought through most things.

🙂
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Kitty_Chan said:
So because of that missionary work it left open a option for those that are alcoholic for instance. But and I realise its not your decision or mine but yrs of church tradition, if they made the allowance for that, why couldnt they make a allowance for the juice.

Because the process of ‘juice’ was vastly different back then as understood now. If you made ‘juice’ it was immediate and had to be consumed immediately, else fermentation would begin immediately. People think they had refrigeration back then? LOL

However, on a side note, If I went to a Catholic church and its allowed for me to take the host but not the wine. So thats confusing to me. But sorta happy knowing that its considered both. Anyway thats off topic I guess.

Most churches offer the Eucharist under both species. It is encouraged; it is an option, but it is up to the individual receiving if they want to partake in both.

So is this mustum able to be kept? how is it different than the grape juice? just the pasturazation I wonder?

Mustum is immediately frozen. It is not pasteurized.

Thanks for the explaination, it figures that the Catholic church had it figured, I notice they generally have thought through most things.

🙂
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:amen:
 
The_Truthinator said:
It’s been brought up so many times before that I figured I’d ask for a little guidance in this area: Some of my Baptist friends from my old church keep defending the never drink position, and when I mention that Jesus drank wine (as well as virtually every biblical character preceeding him), some insist, “Well, we really don’t know whether the ‘wine’ was fermented or not…” and that’s usually the end of it.

Any historical info to help me out here? As well as passages? (How much wine did Our Lord actually produce at the wedding at Cana, by the way? A deacon at my parish made it sound like it was an enormous amount…)

Thanks!
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Your friends haven’t studied.

Yes the wine was fermented, but it was mixed into drinking water to kill off the germs.

The wine at Cana was wine used for drinking without being mixed into water, and the clay pots that where used that Jesus changed water into wine were clay post that were used for cleansing, so yes, the amount of water that Jesus changed into wine was quite a bit. The cleansing pots were very big.
 
Hi The_Truthinator, it is a baptist tradition that wine in the bible means grape juice.

Ephesians 5:18
Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

The very fact that Paul warns us not to get drunk on wine, tells me that wine had alcoholic content. Duh

A few months ago, I found an old can of apple juice ( 5 years old ) so I openned and sip it, and it turned to wine. Should I believe it was a instant miracle? or should I go with common sense that it ferment in the can for five years?

I Cor 11, is the best case you can make that what they drank had enough alcohol to get drunk. People were getting drunk on the wine of the Lord’s table. Also, many overlook the Banquet of the Lord on the last days serves the fine aged wines. Also, ask why drinking “grape juice” Romans 14 can cause one to stumble?
Yes, Jesus made wine in John 2, the man in charge of the wedding was surpised that the best wine was served last. How can grape juice be the best wine?

Isaiah 25:6
New American Standard Bible
The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine.

GOD’S WORD® Translation
On this mountain the LORD of Armies will prepare for all people a feast with the best foods, a banquet with aged wines, with the best foods and the finest wines.

King James Bible
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

American Standard Version
And in this mountain will Jehovah of hosts make unto all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Bible in Basic English
And in this mountain will the Lord of armies make for all peoples a feast of good things, a feast of wines long stored, of good things sweet to the taste, of wines long kept and tested.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord of hosts shall make unto all people in this mountain, a feast of fat things, a feast of wine, of fat things full of marrow, of wine purified from the lees.

Darby Bible Translation
And in this mountain will Jehovah of hosts make unto all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

English Revised Version
And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Jewish Publication Society Tanakh
And in this mountain will the LORD of hosts make unto all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Webster’s Bible Translation
And on this mountain will the LORD of hosts make to all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

World English Bible
In this mountain, Yahweh of Armies will make all peoples a feast of fat things, a feast of choice wines, of fat things full of marrow, of well refined choice wines.

Young’s Literal Translation
And made hath Jehovah of Hosts, For all the peoples in this mount, A banquet of fat things, a banquet of preserved things, Fat things full of marrow, preserved things refined.

Historical sources
On Agriculture and Trees, Columella
Marcus Cato, On Agriculture
ancientworlds.net/aw/Journals/Journal/678540
trincoll.edu/~greger/ASCSA%20–%20Seminar.htm

This is likely a source the baptists will quote from to prove that wine in the bible was grape juice.
biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html
 
John 2
Jesus Changes Water to Wine
1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, “My time has not yet come.”

5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[a]

7Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “**Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.” **

The reason the cheap wine would be served last is because people would be too drunk to tell the difference or to care.

The word for “choice wine” reminds one of Isaiah 25:6
 
Romans 14

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or **drink wine **or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
 
Matthew 11:19
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

How does it make sense to accuse someone of being a drunkard if they only drank grape juice?
 
Yes, Jesus did drink wine, but in moderation. So many people today do not use self-control.
 
Isn’t this thread very illustrative of how the words of the Bible are received subjectively? If your parents taught you…or your church taught you that wine or any other alchoholic beverage was “bad” then Christ could not have used it, He must have used grape juice. Forget the overwhelming historical or practical evidence to the contrary. The early Church Fathers passed us the truth…without an ax to grind. I’ll go for that truth everytime.👍
 
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