PROTESTANTS! Answer me this....

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But they do find their doctrines in Scripture. They just interpret the Scriptures according to a different tradition than you do.

But since they deny that they have any kind of tradition, they think that “the Holy Spirit” is revealing these things to them.
I think you’ve reached the kernel of it. The historical record suggests that two men of good will can study the same scripture, each diligently consulting the available research, each trusting in the Holy Spirit to enlighten him, and come up with incompatible answers, with real theological consequences.

What then? A Protestant might reply that one or both of the men in our example wasn’t really approaching the verse with the right knowledge, or wasn’t as open to the Holy Spirit as he thought. This is logically suspect, though–tantamount to saying, “I don’t care for this particular guy’s output, therefore his (name removed by moderator)ut must have been faulty.” But under Protestant hermeneutics, given the same degrees of sincerity, hard work, and spirituality, one man’s (name removed by moderator)ut is theoretically as good as another’s. And one can only judge the reader’s sincerity and spiritual guidedness by the results, which are only as good as his sincerity and spiritual guidedness … oh, my head.

This is one reason why I’m kicking Rome’s tires, as it were.
 
Hi,
Well, it really does come down to God’s Word. Jw and Mormons and some other cults clearly add things to the bible. Their doctrines can easily be found wrong when put up against the bible.
That is why it is so important to study the bible so when confronted with fallacies and false prophets we will be able to discern the truth.😃
Have you ever spoken to a Jw before? I hope not, but you almost ought to.

You need to see their biblical arguments for any topic. They will pepper you with verses on virtually any topic. They really do not add to the bible at all.

They dont understand the bible. They also have a corrupt translation. But, they are not adding a thing. I cant think of a thing. Their mantra is study the bible! They dont have anything else- they use the bible!:eek:

They will even “study” with you using a KJV. 😉

They are a fantastic example of people convinced they are getting all they need from the bible that will not steer them wrong.

You need to see it for yourself. Its something you will never forget.

They take the 144,000 in Revelation literally. How do you? Why/why not?

there is a thread on that right now in fact.

They go door to door and quote the bible on that. Do you go door to door?

Guess you missed that one in the bible.

It goes on and on.
 
Hi,
Sorry I should clarify. Morality comes from God your right. But the bible is how we even know what God wants from us. Just like God gave Moses the ten commandments, so we would know what sin is. God wrote them down on stone so the Jews would know. Just like God inspired men to write down what He wants us to know while living here on earth.

I hope that clarifies.😃
Child (I’ll use the familiar, I feel like I know you!);

You are acting like a simpleton here. If what you say is true about the 10 Commandments, what about the other laws in Leviticus or Deuteronomy? Are they of equal weight in your biblical rosy glasses? And then there’s that sticky problem of Jesus telling the multitude about those OTHER two commandments. OOPS! I guess His Dad blew it back in the day.

Look, you have the bible you have today because of the Catholic Church, not in spite of it. The Jews met in Jamnia in 90 AD to reconstruct their Tanahk (their bible which includes the Torah: the first 5 books).

They used the Septuagint (what the Catholic Church uses) for the OT and changed some of the canon (dropping some magillah, or shorter books like Maccabees) and changing the prediction of Jesus as Messiah in Isaiah to read from ‘a young girl’ instead of from ‘a virgin.’

The Church chose the canon of the OT and NT because many churches where reading from scrolls and codices (early forms of books) which did not adhere to what Jesus taught His disciples (not us, Child, Jesus was talking to His Apostles and Disciples). So they were thrown out: The Gospel of Peter; The Gospel of Mary Magdalene; The Gospel of Thomas; Acts of Peter; Letter to Barnabas: the list can be found on the web and many ‘editors’ have compiled these and have published them under the dubious title of ‘Lost Gospels.’

They weren’t lost, they were discarded as not being inspired by the Holy Spirit and full of stupid, silly stuff such as Jesus as a young child turning his playmates into frogs and rabbits when they made fun of him.

Child, get over it, the Bible is there because the Catholic Church put it together almost 350 years AFTER the resurrection of Christ.

Your ministers do not speak Greek, koine or Attic, and I doubt if they have every read the Early Fathers in the original Latin.
As to Aramaic and Hebrew, they use a dictionary like the rest of us.
 
  1. Please reveal to me “the” ( the definition that speaks for all of the non Catholic denoms) definitive definition of “sola scriptura”
  2. Please reveal to me “the” definition of “sola fide”
1 and 2. If you want “the” definitions, read the these statements on them… all other definitions are simply variations. There is no definition that “speaks for all denominations” they are denominations for the very reason that they are not the same. You cannot lump all christian denominations together as one unless you just like to look silly.
 
Child (I’ll use the familiar, I feel like I know you!);

You are acting like a simpleton here.

Child, get over it, the Bible is there because the Catholic Church put it together almost 350 years AFTER the resurrection of Christ.

Your ministers do not speak Greek, koine or Attic, and I doubt if they have every read the Early Fathers in the original Latin.
As to Aramaic and Hebrew, they use a dictionary like the rest of us.
Ease up a bit J K…

ALLFORHIM is very sincere and has great courage to keep active on a forum which outnumbers her 1000 to 1. Her points deserve constructive criticism.

.
 
Ease up a bit J K…

ALLFORHIM is very sincere and has great courage to keep active on a forum which outnumbers her 1000 to 1. Her points deserve constructive criticism.
Much agreed. I’d hate to see how he condescends to someone he doesn’t know.
 
Hi,
Sorry I should clarify. Morality comes from God your right. But the bible is how we even know what God wants from us. Just like God gave Moses the ten commandments, so we would know what sin is. God wrote them down on stone so the Jews would know. Just like God inspired men to write down what He wants us to know while living here on earth.

I hope that clarifies.😃
yes that does clarify your position. But what of christians that can’t read? like the millions in underdeveloped countries that don’t have a formal education? Who is there authority on spritual matters?

Can’t be the bible they can not read it!

And who has the authority to say that issues such as human cloning are wrong? That is not mentioned in the bible.
 
…Hi, I was wondering if there was a bible verse that shows what you say. I have been searching the Scriptures and can only find ones that say people are filled with the Holy Spirit not an institution(church). Of course there are alot of Scriptures so maybe I missed it.:o I I agree:D
Exactly that is why I follow the Scriptures. 👍

God Bless

AFH
There actually is a verse in John 16:13 that points to the Holy Spirit filling the institution of the Church: “But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth…” This was said by Jesus to the disciples during the Last Supper. Not to anybody else, just the disciples on whom He founded the Church. They, naturally, got the Church organized and disciplined and took care that the doctrine was passed on carefully to successors (2 Timothy 2:2; I Corinthians 11:2). They were the ones who made sure that heresies were kept out.

And there were many heresies early in the history of the Church. If it weren’t for this institutional side of the Church, founded and led by the disciples and their successors, there would have been no way to control the heretics because there would have been no authority in place to do so. The Church would have collapsed under major heresies that disputed the most basic tenets of Christianity, such as Christ’s divinity.

They couldn’t appeal to the Bible for a long time, because the Bible wasn’t put together for several centuries. In the meantime the individual books were passed around between churches, but there had to be a human authority in place to make sure these books were interpreted correctly. And Christians who wanted to be orthodox and not heretical could trust the human authority of the apostles and their successors, because Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide them into ALL truth. He didn’t promise that to the heretics or to anyone else–again, only the disciples, the first “patriarchs” of the Church, and those who would take over their office when they died (a succession which is simple fact; just read Eusebius’s history of the Church for a long list of Peter’s successors). This is the fundamental flaw of Protestantism. It is much like these heretical groups of the early centuries, because it has no apostolic authority and therefore NO authority at all and therefore has no promise of being guided into ALL truth.
 
**1) **

There isn’t one…next…So which definiton would you suggest is the one truth?

really though, I suppose the common denominator is that scripture is the only source of divine revelation for the church. In that it is the norm for the way God directs his authority to the Church. Please cite some scripture that tells us this. Scripture, as far as I know, does not say this. You can’t even extrapolate this from scripture. yes, all scripture is “profitable” for instruction, reproof, teachings, etc" but that is hardly the same as “the only source” of divine revelation. What of the Christians for the first 300+ years, did they rely on the bible as the source of divine revelation?

Beyond that each major block will have different opinions on how this should be taken.Scripture tells us that Christ wishes for their to be one, and only one “major block”…“that they should be one as we are one…” For instance the more Reformed have in worship the “regulative principle”, where unless it is commanded then it is forbidden. Whereas Luther and the Anglican Church (in general) are looser, and what scripture does not comment on is allowed. Same with various opinions on the role of tradition and church authority. Anglican (especially) and Luther had a larger role, the reformed had some role (magisterial reformation), and then the Zwinglian and Anabaptist tended to be more extreme. There is ONE way to the fullness of the truth, not a “looser” and a “tighter” way as it were…

Being Anglican I give unto thee:

"Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation:I would like to see some scripture that “containeth” this dogma… so that whatsoever is not read
therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be
believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation.Again…I would like to see some scripture that “proveth” this contention…as this was unheard of for 1500 years from the beginning of the church… Continued…
 
In the
name of the Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical Books of the Old and New
Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.Problem is, the holy scripture never tells us what “canonical books are of the old and new…” the Catholic Church and not the Anglican church put the canon of the bible together. Article VI"

“Q. How do we understand the meaning of the Bible?
A. We understand the meaning of the Bible by the help of
the Holy Spirit, who guides the Church in the true
interpretation of the Scriptures.” CAC (Catechism of the Anglican Church:D)So King Henry VIII, a most fleshly man, had the monopoluy on the Holy Spirit to guide “his” church in the true interpretation of the bible?" HE must have threatened to decapitate the H.S. if the H.S. did not comply.

Book recommendation: “the Last Word”, by Bishop N.T. Wright
**
2)**

"XI. Of the Justification of Man.

We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus
Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified
by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely is
expressed in the Homily of Justification.Again, show me where the words “faith alone” appear in the bible.

XII. Of Good Works.

Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot
put away our sins, and endure the severity of God’s judgment; yet are they pleasing and
acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith;
insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the
fruit.
"

So by “salvation” we mean “Justification”. How one is considered to be a child of God, and leads to being adopted into the family and given the gift of the Holy Spirit, ect. One in this state can expect to be with their Lord when they die. And that good works are not done to aver God’s wrath, although he will use discipline to correct, but not in judgment.

I’d say that is a good summary of all Protestants…but still there may be slight nuances.

**3) **
sola scriptura is derived, not explicit.So you are not a “bible only” denomination? More like we know that scripture is a source of infallible divine revelation and authority, but have not been given assurance about anything else.

sola fide is derived from the all the salvation passages that describe Justification by faith, What about when Christ himself tells us that the goats will be sepreated as a result of their works, no mention of faith. In fact, whenever judgement is spoken of, faith is not mentioned, on works are mentioned. And…there is faith hope and love, the greatest of which is love…NOT faith.by the teachings especially in the book of Romans on Abraham Abraham was FULL of WORKS…WORKS demanded by God…Abraham did not only have faith… and Galatians on the contrast with the works of the law, And in these books Paul was speaking of the Mosaic law…true… works of the Mosaic law, avail us nothing… and then by Protestants believing the few verses that seem contraryActually if you take the entire bible in context, no verse in contrary in the entire work… to be interpreted differently. I would say most all of our arguments for it derive from our interpretations of Romans and GalatiansThat’s a huge problem since the bible must be read, understood, and interpreted from cover to cover…what you cite are passages without contect, which then beocme pre-texts…

But I’m sure these have been debated back on forth on this forums allot, so I’ll refrain from scripture bombing 😃 This would be the normal lines of arguments we take boiled down.
**
4)** Please show me a Protestant confession or creed which says this in the way you said and nuanced it
I can’t think of an actual protestant creed that states this…in fact a lot of protestant denoms believe creeds to be evil additions to scriptures and of the devil…“No creed, just Jesus.”…so given that mindset, I wouldn’t expect any. But my experience is as a former fundemantalist that used to believe this and walk in circles of protestants who believed this.
5)
You’re welcome! Thank you…though it only affirmed what I was pointing out in the first place.

May be better if you want to recommend some Protestant systematic theologies, if you get a Lutheran, Reformed Presbyterian, Baptist, Anglican (although we don’t really have much in the systematic theologies area unless it is from the Tractarian era) and a generic Evangelical and look up definitions in them, what would give a good overview of the spectrum.
 
yes that does clarify your position. But what of christians that can’t read? like the millions in underdeveloped countries that don’t have a formal education? Who is there authority on spritual matters?

Can’t be the bible they can not read it!

And who has the authority to say that issues such as human cloning are wrong? That is not mentioned in the bible.
Hi,
I dont know much about human cloning. Im sure it falls under some sort of immorality biblically. I cant really give an intelligent answer on that.:o

As far as other countries. I personally know some missionaries who go to these countries and preach the Gospel and then teach the Word of God to men who start churches there. As far as the people not being able to read well then I guess they would trust the men that were taught(just like they did in the disciple and apostles time) to teach them. I know there is a huge effort to teach these people how to read as well. Other then that if the missionaries are teaching people the Gospel message and people are believing and repenting and receiving the Holy Spirit well that is all they need. God will help them do the rest 😃

Peace
 
Child (I’ll use the familiar, I feel like I know you!);

You are acting like a simpleton here. If what you say is true about the 10 Commandments, what about the other laws in Leviticus or Deuteronomy? Are they of equal weight in your biblical rosy glasses? And then there’s that sticky problem of Jesus telling the multitude about those OTHER two commandments. OOPS! I guess His Dad blew it back in the day.

Look, you have the bible you have today because of the Catholic Church, not in spite of it. The Jews met in Jamnia in 90 AD to reconstruct their Tanahk (their bible which includes the Torah: the first 5 books).

They used the Septuagint (what the Catholic Church uses) for the OT and changed some of the canon (dropping some magillah, or shorter books like Maccabees) and changing the prediction of Jesus as Messiah in Isaiah to read from ‘a young girl’ instead of from ‘a virgin.’

The Church chose the canon of the OT and NT because many churches where reading from scrolls and codices (early forms of books) which did not adhere to what Jesus taught His disciples (not us, Child, Jesus was talking to His Apostles and Disciples). So they were thrown out: The Gospel of Peter; The Gospel of Mary Magdalene; The Gospel of Thomas; Acts of Peter; Letter to Barnabas: the list can be found on the web and many ‘editors’ have compiled these and have published them under the dubious title of ‘Lost Gospels.’

They weren’t lost, they were discarded as not being inspired by the Holy Spirit and full of stupid, silly stuff such as Jesus as a young child turning his playmates into frogs and rabbits when they made fun of him.

Child, get over it, the Bible is there because the Catholic Church put it together almost 350 years AFTER the resurrection of Christ.

Your ministers do not speak Greek, koine or Attic, and I doubt if they have every read the Early Fathers in the original Latin.
As to Aramaic and Hebrew, they use a dictionary like the rest of us.
Hi,

Im sorry you feel this way and Im sorry I have angered you.😦 That is certainly not my intention.🙂
 
Much agreed. I’d hate to see how he condescends to someone he doesn’t know.
Thank you Mrs and LeCracquere. Bless you for sticking up for me. I appreciate your kind words.

I guess I must be a glutton for punishment staying and being out numbered:eek:

People just feel safe behind a computer to say whatever they feel at the time. Oh well, our sinful nature overtakes us sometimes.😦

I appreciate you guys having my back.👍
 
There actually is a verse in John 16:13 that points to the Holy Spirit filling the institution of the Church: “But when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth…” This was said by Jesus to the disciples during the Last Supper. Not to anybody else, just the disciples on whom He founded the Church. They, naturally, got the Church organized and disciplined and took care that the doctrine was passed on carefully to successors (2 Timothy 2:2; I Corinthians 11:2). They were the ones who made sure that heresies were kept out.

Yes and through them over the last 2000 years all who believe were made disciples as well. In John it all says no one person is greater then another John 17 :12-17.
And there were many heresies early in the history of the Church. If it weren’t for this institutional side of the Church, founded and led by the disciples and their successors, there would have been no way to control the heretics because there would have been no authority in place to do so. The Church would have collapsed under major heresies that disputed the most basic tenets of Christianity, such as Christ’s divinity.
You know what I agree with you we just have a different definition of who the church is.😉 As I said above if we receive the message of Jesus Christ, repent and have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of us then we are disciples as well.😃 Your right not just anyone can teach the Word of God only those who believe.👍
 
Last Sunday at my baptist church, the pastor gave a sermon about another skeptic that proved the bible is true…

So pastor, the Bible is true? And this nugget of knowledge relates to my real world how? Well, add another name to the growing list of so-called Bible skeptics. Let’s see, Josh McDowell wrote “Evidence that Demands a Verdict”, Lee Strobel wrote “The Case for Christ” and now we have another “skeptic” who wanted to prove 118 Bible prophecies were true. What was it, the virgin birth, the Trinity? Or they just didn’t believe in miracles and needed proof? So I sit for an hour in church to hear something I already know and have accepted by faith (have another Starbuck’s). Oh, I forgot, you’re preaching to the seekers and visitors who just dropped in to the service for their espresso and concert this morning. Or is it that if I believe the Bible enough, the rest of my life will straighten out and I’ll be a super saint?
 
Hi,
I dont know much about human cloning. Im sure it falls under some sort of immorality biblically. I cant really give an intelligent answer on that.:o

As far as other countries. I personally know some missionaries who go to these countries and preach the Gospel and then teach the Word of God to men who start churches there. As far as the people not being able to read well then I guess they would trust the men that were taught(just like they did in the disciple and apostles time) to teach them. I know there is a huge effort to teach these people how to read as well. Other then that if the missionaries are teaching people the Gospel message and people are believing and repenting and receiving the Holy Spirit well that is all they need. God will help them do the rest 😃

Peace
on cloning, that is my point. the bible doesn’t speak on it. but the church does.

about the missionaries, what guarantee do the people have that the missionaries are teaching truth and not error? If they don’t have access to the sole authority (bible) because they can’t read (as most all christians in history couldn’t) how would these poor sheep discern the truth in the gospel. what assurance do they have?

I know you are getting bombarded here but i have a question for you: You seem to have pretty mainline protestant beliefs about salvation and authority. Do you think that Jehovah’s witnesses and Seventh Day adventists who have different views from yourself are heretical and in error or do they teach truth as well?
 
Hi,
Exactly, the church is a group of people led by the Holy Spirit who congregate together to Worship God.😃
If this is true, then doctrines don’t matter or conflicting and contradictory doctrines are acceptable, right? I believe Jesus established one church, which is visible and doctrine matters and does not conflict. This church contains the fullness of truth as revealed by God; all others have partial truths at best. (John 17:22-23 - Christians should be one as Jesus and the Father are one.) Could Jesus and the Father contradict each other?
 
Thank you Mrs and LeCracquere. Bless you for sticking up for me. I appreciate your kind words.

I guess I must be a glutton for punishment staying and being out numbered:eek:

People just feel safe behind a computer to say whatever they feel at the time. Oh well, our sinful nature overtakes us sometimes.😦

I appreciate you guys having my back.👍
Well, bless you for posting, and hope you’re enough of a glutton for punishment to stick around. Look, most people in this forum aren’t going to agree with your debating points–I’m still tenuously a Protestant, and I don’t think I do–but I’m glad you’re putting your thoughts out there and submitting them to the test of debate & discussion.

Maybe the other posters will change your mind about some things. Maybe you’ll change theirs. But if you hang in there, whatever you end up believing will certainly be battle-tested.

And I’m not just softening you up for the next time I jump on one of your posts with both feet. 😃
 
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