Protestants are not a different "religion" from Catholics

[cmforte]

I am disappointed at the title of this forum. Protestants are not a different “religion” from Catholics. That’s a misuse of the term “religion.” Islam is a different religion from Christianity, but Protestants are part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. This is acknowledged by most RC scholars.

-Tom

Since most of them don’t believe in Apostolic succession and Apostolic Tradition, they are not part of the Apostolic church. I consider them fellow christians, just on an inferior scale. They are certainly not part of "the One, Holy,** Catholic **and Apostolic Church."

-Chris

 

[cmforte]

I am sure that someone else has already posted this, but here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about this subject (from vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM). To me it is the last word:

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Paragraph 3. THE CHURCH IS ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC

I. THE CHURCH IS ONE

…Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

…838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

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-Chris

 

[perro_sarnoso]

I am disappointed at the title of this forum. Protestants are not a different “religion” from Catholics. That’s a misuse of the term “religion.” Islam is a different religion from Christianity, but Protestants are part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. This is acknowledged by most RC scholars.
Tom

You’re right…you guys came from the Catholic Church. And I don’t blame you for being upset about this thread title.

Sometimes people get carried away with trying to cause a stir - just to get a reaction. Don’t bother with it.

God loves you and so do I

 

[John_oxios]

I am disappointed at the title of this forum. Protestants are not a different “religion” from Catholics. That’s a misuse of the term “religion.” Islam is a different religion from Christianity, but Protestants are part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. This is acknowledged by most RC scholars.
Tom

sorry,
Different teachings ! different religion! But some like to break it down by stating we are Christians because we follow the teachings of Christ. Well if they teach a different Christ than? They are not christian! Mormans, jehovah witnesses, If they deny the teachings of the Roman /Eastern Church, then they are something else.
But they all want to be in the boat? But when the oil runs out…Christ says, I know you not!

God bless,
John

 

[guanophore]

sorry, 
    Different teachings !    different religion!  But some like to break it down by stating we are Christians because we follow the teachings of Christ.

Your comments are not consistent with what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[joe370]

I don’t get what you’re saying. You can’t say that you are apostolic if your beliefs are contrary to doctrines. Protestant beliefs are considered heresy by the Catholic Church.

But, unlike Islam, non-catholics absolutely embrace Jesus Christ as their one and only Savior and the only way to the Father. Wouldn’t it be fair to say that protestantism is the same Christocentric religion with different beliefs of that religion?

 

[joe370]

OK:
So the Protestant position on these few items are in full agreement with what the CC holds to be the singular truth?

OSAS= false

Faith Alone= false

Forgiveness of sins ONLY by God through the Sacrament of Confession and intercession and actions of the Priest?

Belief in the Real Presence of Jeus in the Eucharist

The Primacy of peter and Popes

Only One Church

73 Books in the Bible like there was for more than 1,000 years

Inerancy of the Complete Bible [which is NOT a history book]

ALL of these Catholic [positions are Biblically founded…

Well you get the idea…

John 10:16** And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

**Eph. 2:19-20 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

Eph. 4: 4 -8“There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God] ONLY one faith, [Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

I think dear friend your being a bit optomistic. We have MUCH to pray for in regards to Christian Unity.

May God continue to bless and guide you,
Pat

All things that drew me away from protestantism, but nonetheless, protestantism, unlike Islam, which is a completely different religion, is still a Christocentric religion like catholicism - right?

They believe Jesus is the resurrection and the life and that he who believes in Him will live, even though he dies, and that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him, and that grace and truth comes ONLY through Jesus Christ…

 

[guanophore]

I don’t get what you’re saying. You can’t say that you are apostolic if your beliefs are contrary to doctrines. Protestant beliefs are considered heresy by the Catholic Church.

The vast majority of Protestants have retained Catholic doctrine. Granted, all of them, to a greater or lesser degree, have embraced heresies. But, if they are validly baptized, they are considered members of the One Body, though imperfectly joined.

All things that drew me away from protestantism, but nonetheless, protestantism, unlike Islam, which is a completely different religion, is still a Christocentric religion like catholicism - right?

They believe Jesus is the resurrection and the life and that he who believes in Him will live, even though he dies, and that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him, and that grace and truth comes ONLY through Jesus Christ…

Yes. Some also believe in the Real Presence, and sacramental life.

 

[rinnie]

-Tom

Since most of them don’t believe in Apostolic succession and Apostolic Tradition, they are not part of the Apostolic church. I consider them fellow christians, just on an inferior scale. They are certainly not part of "the One, Holy,** Catholic **and Apostolic Church."

-Chris

I disagree with you, and our Pope also disagrees with you. He claims that we are all brought together in One Baptism in Christ and although we are not in perfect communion with our brothers and sisters we are all ONE in Christ by the Sacrament of Baptism.

So you have to show me how Baptism that is done in the Name of the Trinity does not make them part of the OHCAC.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I disagree with you, and our Pope also disagrees with you. He claims that we are all brought together in One Baptism in Christ and although we are not in perfect communion with our brothers and sisters we are all ONE in Christ by the Sacrament of Baptism.

So you have to show me how Baptism that is done in the Name of the Trinity does not make them part of the OHCAC.

They aren’t in visible communion with the Body of Christ (at least to my understanding). davidmacd.com/catholic/vatican_says_protestants_not_churches.htm

The visible Church is not a building
When Catholics talk about the visible Church they are not talking about a church building, although we think God is pleased with beautiful churches. He had Solomon build a beautiful temple (1 Kg 6:1). When Jesus saw money changers in the Temple he didn’t say “hey guys, its only a building, we can worship anywhere, lets go down the street to the community centre.” No, He chased them out. (Lk 19:45)

But the visible Church is not the building. St. Frances of Assisi made this mistake in the 13th century. In prayer he heard Jesus say “rebuild my church,” so he went out and built a church. I saw it when I was in Italy. (photo right)

When Frances was finished building the church he realized that God had much bigger plans. God was talking to Frances about rebuilding the community of believers under the structure of authority passed down from Peter. Frances went on to become one of the greatest saints. He most certainly did rebuild the Church.

 

[rinnie]

They aren’t in visible communion with the Body of Christ (at least to my understanding). davidmacd.com/catholic/vatican_says_protestants_not_churches.htm

They are not in PERFECT Communion with us. They do not have all of the Sacraments. But they are in Visible communion with us by the Sacrament of Baptism.

I believe you are getting Communion confused with our Holy Eucharist. When I say we are in communion with one another means we are connected with one another by our faith and belief in Christ and our Baptism in him. To us if you are baptised in the name of the Trinity you are part of the Catholic Church, although you are not in perfect communion.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

They are not in PERFECT Communion with us. They do not have all of the Sacraments. But they are in Visible communion with us by the Sacrament of Baptism.

I believe you are getting Communion confused with our Holy Eucharist. When I say we are in communion with one another means we are connected with one another by our faith and belief in Christ and our Baptism in him. To us if you are baptised in the name of the Trinity you are part of the Catholic Church, although you are not in perfect communion.

Here is my complete understanding:

All who are saved/will be saved are apart of the Mystical Body of Christ. Those who are baptised are considered apart of the Catholic Church (on earth). Thus all Christians are in visible communion by virtue of their baptism. But since Protestants are brought up outside of the Catholic Church, they have an imperfect communion with the Catholic Church (Body of Christ). They can’t participate in the Eucharist (in a Catholic Church), which shows that you are in full visible communion with the Catholic Church. What I mean by visible communion is if you are formally Catholic and are able to partake of the Eucharist. In the broad sense, all who are validly baptised are apart of the Catholic Church.

But I don’t know where Catholics in mortal sin fit in (cafeteria Catholics).

Thoughts?

 

[John_oxios]

Your comments are not consistent with what the Catholic Church teaches.

Really? Make a staement and do not back it up with the teaching??

A Jehovah Witness will tell you they are ‘Christians,’ yet they preach a different Christ. Modalist Pentecostals preach a different Christ, yet they call themselves Christians.
Mormons preach a different Christ,

And the Bible says:

2Cr 11:4 For if some one comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you submit to it readily enough.

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

We believe if you are in a Christ based Religion, then, that is a god start! And if you study the Bible diligently eventually you’ll become Catholic. To study Church history is to cease being a protestant." (Cardinal Neumann)

CCC #810 "Hence the universal Church is seen to be ‘a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit’"

#812 **Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. **But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission

…838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.

#843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.

#844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
870 “The sole Church of Christ which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, . . . **subsists in the Catholic Church, **which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines”(LG 8).

God bless,
John

 

[Hail_Linus]

I am disappointed at the title of this forum. Protestants are not a different “religion” from Catholics. That’s a misuse of the term “religion.” Islam is a different religion from Christianity, but Protestants are part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. This is acknowledged by most RC scholars.
Tom

This really is silly complaint. However, I am not going to debate you on this issue. In fact I especially encourage you to say you are Catholic if you are ever admitted into a hospital that way a Catholic Priest will be sent to you to give you the anointing of the sick.

BTW can you give a list of a few of the RC scholars you are referring to.

 

[traillius]

I always thoughts protestants didn’t think of christianity as a religion, at least a majority of them keep saying its not about a religion. Well, technically, any belief passed on to succeeding generations fits the definition of a religion. You can’t really have a relationship with Jesus without the context of how to live in the world, i.e. the "religion " that some evangelicals seem to be so afraid of. But, we are different, because Christ is the base and center, not the ‘front,’ of our beliefs.

 

[Roman_Catechism]

Since their beliefs are heretical, Protestants are only individually part of the Church mysteriously through Baptism. Since non-Christians can conceivably be saved by Baptism of desire and are therefore also mysteriously a part of the Church, your argument really doesn’t hold.

 

[Arvan]

I am disappointed at the title of this forum. Protestants are not a different “religion” from Catholics. That’s a misuse of the term “religion.” Islam is a different religion from Christianity, but Protestants are part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. This is acknowledged by most RC scholars.
Tom

Of course. The definition should be more catholic (small “c”).
Personally, I agree with this one:
religioustolerance.org/chrdefnresp.htm

 

[John_oxios]

I am disappointed at the title of this forum. Protestants are not a different “religion” from Catholics. That’s a misuse of the term “religion.” Islam is a different religion from Christianity, but Protestants are part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. This is acknowledged by most RC scholars.
Tom

I’m not sure of Anglican theology, but let’s start with the word ‘religion’

• **a particular system of faith and worship **

would you say we have different systems?

Wasn’t it Luther who took Church sacrament of marriage and reduced it to a civil affair?

King Henry who made himself the head of the Church of England?

In Baptism, we are one holy catholic Church, after that? Things are different!

i.e.

Anglican teaching Sola Scriptura? case in point:

1. About the Lord’s Supper
   The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have to one another; it is also a sacrament of our redemption by Christ’s death. If we receive the sacrament with faith and in a worthy manner, the bread which we break is a sharing in the body of Christ; and the cup of blessing is a sharing in the blood of Christ.

**Transubstantiation (**or the change of the substance of bread and wine) in the Supper of the Lord **cannot be proved by holy scripture but is rejected by the plain words of scripture, **contradicts the nature of a sacrament, and has produced many superstitions.
The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the supper only in a spiritual manner. It is received and eaten by faith.
The sacrament of the Lord’s Supper was not ordered by Christ to be reserved, lifted up, carried about or worshipped…

The Anglican Church denies that the prayer of consecration brings the presence of Christ into or alongside the sacrament. This means that an unbeliever who eats the bread does not receive Christ or his benefits, because neither Christ nor his benefits are contained in the sacrament, they are only conveyed as a promise to the believer by means of the sacrament.
.

Completely different from Apostolic teachings of the first 1500 of the Catholic Church.

Not Apostolic, ruled out Sacred Tradition, and We don’t teach the same things.

Similarities is not sameness, Our religions though Christ based Are different!

God bless,
John

 

[John_oxios]

Of course. The definition should be more catholic (small “c”).
Personally, I agree with this one:
religioustolerance.org/chrdefnresp.htm

Hi Arvan,

From the URL above:

The definition that we use:

We define “Christian” as follows:

We accept as Christian any individual or group who devoutly, thoughtfully, seriously, and prayerfully regards themselves to be Christian. That is, they honestly believe that they follow Yeshua of Nazareth’s (a.k.a. Jesus Christ’s) teachings as they understand them to be.
Included as Christians are members of the Roman Catholic church; the Eastern Orthodox churches, conservative, mainline, and liberal Christian faith groups; The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly called the Mormons); Jehovah’s Witnesses, Unification Church, Christian Science, and a thousand or so other religious organizations that identify themselves as Christian. We also consider the early Jewish Christian movement led by James the brother of Jesus and Peter as Christian, even though their beliefs, practices, and expectations do not match modern-day denominations.

Perfect!!! There are those who redefine what the term ‘Christian’ is to fit in as Christians.

One of the Christians earliest written creeds in the Bible:

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received,** that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,**

4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,

5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.

7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

If you do not believe Christ did on the Cross, and was raised again, that he is the Son of God, than you are not a Christian.

Bible Dictionary
Christian definition

the name given by the Greeks or Romans, probably in reproach, to the followers of Jesus. It was first used at Antioch. The names by which the disciples were known among themselves were “brethren,” “the faithful,” “elect,” “saints,” “believers.” But as distinguishing them from the multitude without, the name “Christian” came into use, and was universally accepted. This name occurs but three times in the New Testament (Acts 11:26; 26:28; 1 Pet. 4:16).

Cultural Dictionary
Christian definition

A follower or disciple of Jesus; someone who believes Jesus is the Christ or Messiah. The New Testament mentions

that the followers of Jesus were first called Christians within a few years after his death.

God bless,
John

 

[Arvan]

Religion is different from denomination. By general consent, both Sunnis & Shias are Muslims, as well as Ahamadiyya. As far as Druzes are concerned, and Ismailis, things are a bit tricky.

As for Christianity, scholars’ books generally include historical three branches:

• Jewish Christians (Ebionites)
• Pauline Christians (the dominant current)
• Gnostic Christians (Valentinus etc.)

Then, there were followers of Arius, Nestorians etc.

Contemporary scene is- I’d say most non-Christians would agree that Christians are:

• Catholics
• Eastern Orthodox
• Oriental Orthodox
• Protestants (mainliners- Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists,…)
• Evangelicals (high charged Protestants- Pentecostals etc.)

Two families are a bit dubious:

• those with additional scriptures (Mormons, Seven Day Adventists, Christian Scientists). IMO- here I differ form Trinitarian Christians- they are Christians, but not a few will disagree …
• Unitarian Universalists, Quakers etc.- i.e. “Liberals” who explicitly do not
  consider themselves to be Christians. They are, I’d say, new religions,
  Christianity’s spin off.

So, neither Trinitarian doctrine nor apostolic succession defines who is a Christian: Christian is a person who centers their religious life in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Or, to narrow things a bit: Jesus Christ is the only Soter for Christians, whatever his theological status in a given corpus of interpretative texts.