A
Arvan
Guest
Jewish Christians were followers of Jesus long before Biblical canon was compiled.
Sorry- the Bible is not the final authority on sociological & historical realities.
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Sorry- the Bible is not the final authority on sociological & historical realities.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi Arvan,
What scholar books???
Arius, Nestorius = heretics
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
Mat 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Mormons, Jehovah witnesses along with
Gnostics = heretical teachings concerning who Jesus is.
Not by his suffering and death??? that’s not Christian!!!
1Cr 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Like I said, you can change the definition of Christian to ‘fit in’ but it doesn’t change what the Bible says a Christian is.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi Arvan,
By what standard do you set the above statement???
Christ born a Jew, followed Jewish Sacred Tradition and the Law of Moses.
Jewish Christians obviously first followers of Christ, whom Christ gave specific authority to carry on his teachings to His Apostles… these teachings were taught in the Synagogues and streets in the Oral Tradition of the Jews. Prior to Jesus death and Resurrection Greeks come to seek Jesus:
Jhn 12:20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
Jhn 12:21 So these came to Philip, who was from Beth-sa’ida in Galilee, and said to him, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.”
Nonetheless the followers were taught through Sacred Tradition, Example and Practice from the first witnesses to Christ. And the Church today stands as witness to Christ’s life, death and Resurrection.
Paul after his conversion, baptism and lessons in the faith, begins to write his letters to the Church in/ about 50 a.d. and the Gospel of Matthew written in 60 -65 a.d. When witnesses to Christ teachings were still alive and they could have been disputed easily if they were false. Paul evengelized the known world before he was martyred approx 65 a.d. there were tens of thousands of Non Jewish Christians before the Temple falls.
The Canon isn’t made til the 5th or 6th century, and it was made because people were using books that were not approved by the Church in the Literature of the Mass.
Through Pauls writings are proof that Jewish Christian and non Jewish Christians were communities existing simultaneously… not one following another after several hundred yrs.
And you are correct the Bible is not the final authority, (Protestants believe that) the Church is, [The first written document stating the Church is Catholic 110 a.d.]
Eph 3:9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things;
:10 that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.
11 This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,
1Tim 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,
1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
You really ought to read/ research before you post, so you may understand what you’re attempting to discuss. Know/ study your opponent! It is how wars are won… Physical and Spiritual.
God Bless,
John
A
Arvan
Guest
John oxios,
I don’t think there is much sense in talking past one another. Then, this is not a discussion,
but a bunch of soliloquys. The “world”, i.e. ordinary people of various denominations, atheists, scholars, … consider:
a) Christianity is a religion
b) Catholicism is a denomination (or you can use some other term) of Christian religion, say, Catholic Christianity
Now, situation is - give or take- something like this:
christianforums.com/f942/
So- Methodists, Lutherans, Copts,… are not other religions. They are other Christian denominations.
I don’t think there is much sense in talking past one another. Then, this is not a discussion,
but a bunch of soliloquys. The “world”, i.e. ordinary people of various denominations, atheists, scholars, … consider:
a) Christianity is a religion
b) Catholicism is a denomination (or you can use some other term) of Christian religion, say, Catholic Christianity
Now, situation is - give or take- something like this:
christianforums.com/f942/
So- Methodists, Lutherans, Copts,… are not other religions. They are other Christian denominations.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Arvan,
Protesantism is only 500 years old. Gnosticism was the first great heresy held by individuals who were outside the followers of the Apostles – authentic witnesses of Christ and His oral teachings. Christ did not pass out texts or books because of the Tower of Babel…the problem with language…one might see one thing, another something else.
Christ’s constant prayer was unity among believers.
The first local church was in Jerusalem, 100% Jewish. These attended the synagogues with their fellow Orthodox Jews…but after so many years, the Orthodox expelled the Nazarenes, followers of Christ, who in turn started their own synagogues…It is the Roman Diaspora that drove out wiped out many of the Jewish population. Those meeting in Jerusalem suffered the same fate.
At the time the Muslim caliph overtook Jerusalem, it was a Byzantine Catholic Church comprising of Jewish Christians who were able to remain as well as many other Gentile inhabitants.
Protesantism is only 500 years old. Gnosticism was the first great heresy held by individuals who were outside the followers of the Apostles – authentic witnesses of Christ and His oral teachings. Christ did not pass out texts or books because of the Tower of Babel…the problem with language…one might see one thing, another something else.
Christ’s constant prayer was unity among believers.
The first local church was in Jerusalem, 100% Jewish. These attended the synagogues with their fellow Orthodox Jews…but after so many years, the Orthodox expelled the Nazarenes, followers of Christ, who in turn started their own synagogues…It is the Roman Diaspora that drove out wiped out many of the Jewish population. Those meeting in Jerusalem suffered the same fate.
At the time the Muslim caliph overtook Jerusalem, it was a Byzantine Catholic Church comprising of Jewish Christians who were able to remain as well as many other Gentile inhabitants.
A
Arvan
Guest
And …?
B.t.w.- heretic Christians are still Christians. They just happened to be voted out.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi Arvan,
Code:
Would you call 'Panentheistism' a Christian religion/ denomination and why?Denomination:
- a group having a distinctive interpretation of a religious faith and usually its own organization.
There are some 22 ‘Catholic Churches’ We all Worship in the same Manner, our differences are Not in Christ, not in the Eucharist, we all have that in common, where we differ is tradition [not Sacred Tradition] , and who we believe is the head of the Church.
As a Protestant they believe we [Catholics] Worship God in the wrong way, so how are we the same?
God bless,
john
R
rinnie
Guest
Now lets think here, If we are all a part of the Mystical Body of Christ in Baptism, which I agree, are protestants REALLy brought up OUTSIDE of the CC? Or are they part of the CC and don’t actually realize it. ALthough as we agree not completely united to us, they are united do you not agree?Here is my complete understanding:
All who are saved/will be saved are apart of the Mystical Body of Christ. Those who are baptised are considered apart of the Catholic Church (on earth). Thus all Christians are in visible communion by virtue of their baptism. But since Protestants are brought up outside of the Catholic Church, they have an imperfect communion with the Catholic Church (Body of Christ). They can’t participate in the Eucharist (in a Catholic Church), which shows that you are in full visible communion with the Catholic Church. What I mean by visible communion is if you are formally Catholic and are able to partake of the Eucharist. In the broad sense, all who are validly baptised are apart of the Catholic Church.
But I don’t know where Catholics in mortal sin fit in (cafeteria Catholics).
Thoughts?
A
Arvan
Guest
- panentheism is not a religion, but a world-view. Good to remember me to update this part of a profile
- the quotation you gave is…corroborating what I’ve been saying all along. Protestants are Christians, as are Catholics, with some distinctive interpretation (5 solas) of the faith, :thankyou:
R
Roman_Catechism
Guest
But those who are a part of the Church via Baptism of the Desire can be considered to be a part of a separate religion. Why not Protestants, Orthodox Christians, and schismatic “Old Catholics” as well? They are considered different religions of varying degrees of similarity to ours in my eyes.Now lets think here, If we are all a part of the Mystical Body of Christ in Baptism, which I agree, are protestants REALLy brought up OUTSIDE of the CC? Or are they part of the CC and don’t actually realize it. ALthough as we agree not completely united to us, they are united do you not agree?
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi Arvan,
if the are voted out they are no longer Christian, they are something else.
When you get fired from your job, do you still consider yourself an employee?
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Code:
Mat 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and **whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,** and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."Before they were declared heretics they were given a voice in council, their theology/ teaching/ opinion was openly discussed and then if the teaching declared heretical according to Apostolic teaching, they were told to refrain from said teaching, and if they accepted the rebuke they remained in the Church… if not they were declared a heretic
[a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.] they were not accepted back til they came back in line with the Church.
Jhn 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
heresy; opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, especially of a church or religious system.
throughout the Bible, there is a leader, whether patriarchal, prophet, judge, or King
Joshua was commissioned by God though Moses to lead Israel so they would not be sheep without a shepherd See ww.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Num&c=27&v=15&t=RSV#15
Jesus does through his Apostles and their successors. He commissioned them to lead the Christians through the Church so that we will not be sheep without a Shepherd.
God bless,
John
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hello Arvan,
- panentheism is not a religion, but a world-view. Good to remember me to update this part of a profile
- the quotation you gave is…corroborating what I’ve been saying all along. Protestants are Christians, as are Catholics, with some distinctive interpretation (5 solas) of the faith, :thankyou:
So do you call yourself a Christian?
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hi,But those who are a part of the Church via Baptism of the Desire can be considered to be a part of a separate religion. Why not Protestants, Orthodox Christians, and schismatic “Old Catholics” as well? They are considered different religions of varying degrees of similarity to ours in my eyes.
Baptism of desire is like when your making preparation to be baptized, and something happens along the way, like death. because to refuse baptism by water is refusing Jesus’ command to be baptized.
If baptism by water is impossible, it may be replaced by the baptism of
desire, or by the baptism of blood, as in the case of those who suffer
martyrdom for the faith of Christ.
IS BAPTISM OF WATER NECESSARY FOR SALVATION? It is commonly taught by the
Church that baptism of water is necessary for salvation for those who have
not reached the use of reason.
WHAT IS BAPTISM OF DESIRE? Baptism of desire is the implicit desire for
baptism of water by a person who makes an act of perfect love of God,
based on faith and with a sincere sorrow for one’s sins. Such was the case
in the Acts of the Apostles, when Peter encountered pagans who, moved by
the grace of the Holy Spirit, proclaimed the greatness of God. “Peter
himself then said, ‘Could anyone refuse the water of baptism to these
people, now they have received the Holy Spirit…?’” (Acts 10:46-47).
IS BAPTISM OF DESIRE A SACRAMENT? Baptism of desire is not a sacrament;
it does not imprint the baptismal character or enable a person to receive
the other sacraments. Nevertheless, it does confer sanctifying grace.
. Necessity of Baptism for Salvation?
Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, Since the promulgation of the
Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.)
Baptism of blood signifies martyrdom of an umbaptised person, that is, the
patient bearing of a violent death or of an assault which of its nature
leads to death, by reason of one’s confession of the Christian faith, or
one’s practice of Christian virtue.
God bless,
John
R
Roman_Catechism
Guest
I specifically remember the CCC indicating that members of non-Christian religions can conceivably be saved through supreme ignorance of the Christian faith. Such would be a type of baptism by desire because it is conceivable they would have desired baptism had they known of its significance.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hello whoever,
Really? going through life not recognizing God through His Creations is no excuse, not being exposed to the Gospels is an excuse, hearing about Christ, and not getting Baptized is without excuse. If you can specifically remember, well then, show me specifically where it staes that in the catechism; because without that quote what you ‘specifically’ remember/recall doesn’t count!
When you hear the Gospel, it is the Holy Spirit that compels you to become Baptized. Not to do that is to deny God’s will.
Now show me where the Catechism backs up your specific remembrance>?
How can you have a Baptism of desire if you have never heard of Baptism? Someone some=where HAD to evangelize Christ to desire Baptism.
Having lived a good life and deny receiving Baptism is a whole ‘nother story’
Having lived a good life not hearing the Gospels,well. your at the mercy and judgement of Gods.
Supreme ignorance??? Is that like hearing God’s Word, and denying how we feel about it.
God bless
R
Roman_Catechism
Guest
J
John_oxios
Guest
HELlo,
‘Supreme ignorance’ or seeking God in accordance with what he has to work with?
Let’s read it again:
Quote:
Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and his Church,** but seeks the truth** and** does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it,** can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. (CCC no. 1260, cf. no. 1258 on baptism by desire)
in this case never heard the Gospel evangelized however:
Code:
'Ignorance is no excuse not to live a life of neighborly Love, or to help those in need.dictionary;
Sense of “pay no attention to” first recorded 1801 and not common until c.1850.
[C17: from Latin ignōrāre **not to know, from ignārus ignorant of, from i- in- 1 + gnārus knowing; related to Latin noscere to know]
the word come from ignore;
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Code:
to refrain from noticing or recognizing:
- overlook; slight, disregard, neglect.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;
Psa 19:1-4 .
The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world. (niv)
It’s not about Gnosis!
1Cr 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Cr 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
The truth about God is actually present within creation and that even a fallen humanity can recognize God through creation.
And what is this Marill! Marill, marill, marill marill! Pokeman?
God bless,
John
J
John_oxios
Guest
Paulo Coelho, ‘the Aleph’
"William Blake used to say that we can see the infinite in a grain of sand and eternity in a flower.
In truth, a simple moment of inner harmony is enough for that to happen.
That is where the great problem resides: we almost never allow ourselves to realize that the present moment in itself holds all the glory.
Sometimes, it expresses itself in a completely casual manner. You are walking in the street, sit in a certain place and suddenly the entire universe is right there. The first thing that comes up is a huge desire to cry – not for sadness, neither for happiness, but simply to show emotion. You know you are comprehending something, even if you are not even able to explain it to yourself."
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hello,
After re-reading, Can’t edit my posts you are correct, you used the term ‘type’ of baptism of desire, as long as you acknowledge and seeking the Truth of Him.
J
John_oxios
Guest
Hello Arvan,
- panentheism is not a religion, but a world-view. Good to remember me to update this part of a profile
- the quotation you gave is…corroborating what I’ve been saying all along. Protestants are Christians, as are Catholics, with some distinctive interpretation (5 solas) of the faith, :thankyou:
Why is it you are speaking for protestants inclusiveness if you are not protestant and an atheist, skeptic etc???
Actually you’d have to believe in God, to discuss the difference in Christian faith.
Arguing from the secular notion, you don’t understand faith. So for you it’s all moot point.
But “there are two ways to define God, who He is, and who He isn’t” (Bishop Fulton Sheen)… either way Your thoughts are by captivated by God.
panentheism= a political movement to preserve the worlds future, natural riches, by preaching zero population growth to reduce the worlds population, for a chosen elite( the rich).
see:
www.realcatholictv.com/free/index.php?vidID=ciax-2010-08-25
and
www.realcatholictv.com/free/index.php?vidID=ciax-2011-06-17
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