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MarcoPolo
Guest
3 is true, however, if you agree that it is proper to ask others to pray for you, which Scripture clearly approves.
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mozart-250
Guest
Not necessarily.
Scripture only clearly approves asking the physically alive to pray for you. Just because Scripture approves of asking the physically alive to pray for you does not mean that it approves of asking the physically dead to pray for you.
There is also the issue on whether the physically dead have a complete awareness of all events on earth. Just because the physically dead may have a partial awareness of events on earth (the same as us physically alive folks), it does not follow that the physically dead have a complete awareness of all events on earth.
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water
Guest
They might not know all the events on Earth, but if God grants them to know what they need to know, then anything we ask of them can be known.
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mozart-250
Guest
Yup…so the issue then is whether God grants them the ability to hear all of the requests for intercession by physically alive folks on earth. Dunno.
However, if I were to grant the premise that physically dead folks in heaven have a ministry of praying for physically alive folks on earth, it does not mean that the physically dead folks in heaven have an awareness of all requests for intercession that come their way. This overlooks the possibility of other channels of information being in use in heaven.
The whole problem with this entire conversation is that Christians think they know and understand how heaven operates a whole lot more than they actually do know.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Well, I think necessarily if your 1 and 2 are correct, then your 3 has to be.
But what do you think about the prayers of the saints rising up to heaven?Revelation 8:4 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand…and other passages of similar vein. And how did the angel receive these prayers that he offers?
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water
Guest
When we use this verse, Protestants don’t believe the way we believe. The word “saints” here, for us we believe it is the saints in Heaven; for Protestants, they are those on Earth.
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water
Guest
We do know for many prayers have been granted - the results of our prayers granted are strong proofs. Just like you, when you pray something, God answers it, then you will say “Thanks God for answring my prayers”. In the same way, when we ask the Saints for their intercession, and when our prayers are granted, we know.
Besides, as the poster MarcoPolo mentioned about Revelation 8:4, but many protestants don’t think that is the prayer of those saints in heaven.
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water
Guest
Then how could you be so sure the Saints in Heaven cannot hear you?
at least for the Catholics, we know our praying to the Saints have been answered for thousands of years.
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mozart-250
Guest
Not necessarily. The physically dead saints could very well have a ministry of prayer and intercession for those of us who are alive, but the ministry not be based on prayers directed to them.
Perhaps somehow heaven routes prayer requests directed toward God the Father or Son or Holy spirit to the physically dead saints (that is what I personally believe).
Well this is a Scripture that supports the notion that physically dead saints do have a ministry of intercession. However, the passage says nothing concerning to whom the prayers were initially directed.
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mozart-250
Guest
I would say the fact that your prayers are answered is evidence that asking physically dead saints to intercede for you is not akin to sorcery, spiritualism, and child sacrifice.
It is not proof that this is the way that prayer is designed to work.
I personally believe that your requests for St. Michael or St. Jude or Virgin Mary to intercede on your behalf go to the Father just like any other prayer does. And if the Father wants St. Michael or St. Jude or the Virgin Mary to intercede, that He will make sure this happens whether or not a request for their intercession was specifically made.
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water
Guest
In other words, asking your family members to pray doesn’t really matter, does it?I personally believe that your requests for St. Michael or St. Jude or Virgin Mary to intercede on your behalf go to the Father just like any other prayer does. And if the Father wants St. Michael or St. Jude or the Virgin Mary to intercede, that He will make sure this happens whether or not a request for their intercession was specifically made.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
I’m having a terrible time following what your position is. I hear you say maybe saints or angels can hear our prayers, but you fight against the claim at every turn. Could you clarify?
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Mannyfit75
Guest
I’m pretty sure they are aware what is going on here on earth.
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agangbern
Guest
Where is that word “physically alive” used in that context in the Bible? What is written is this: “Amen, amen, I say to you, if anyone keep my word, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51) Furthermore, “And the world with its lust is passing away, but he who does the will of God abides forever.” (1John 2:17)
God alone judges who He wants to come to heaven. And surely those he brings to heaven are holy and just. If they are holy and just, therefore they can pray to God for our salvation. For it is written, “The unceasing prayer of a just man is of great avail.” (James 5:16)
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mozart-250
Guest
No more so than going to Christ directly and trusting Him to get whomever He wants in heaven to be involved in my prayer requests. Jesus is perfectly capable of managing heaven.
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mozart-250
Guest
Biology 101.
The saints in heaven are physically (as far as earth goes) dead. They are alive in whatever new state God has prepared for them.
As far as earth goes, however, they are still dead.
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agangbern
Guest
I see. So the word “physically dead” has meaning only in biology, not in the bible.
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mozart-250
Guest
Sure.I’m having a terrible time following what your position is. I hear you say maybe saints or angels can hear our prayers, but you fight against the claim at every turn. Could you clarify?
Basically I am saying is that we all know a lot less about how heaven operates than we think we do. Scripture is intentionally ambiguous concerning details of the afterlife.
There is some Scripture that supports the idea that physically dead saints do have some type ministry of intercession. How it works, none of us know (unless we have gone to heaven and come back) what prompts the saints in heaven to pray for us and how they get the knowledge to know what to pray for.
Therefore, given the fact that we don’t know for sure whether even the saints in heaven are even given the ability to hear every request that comes there way, the safest and surest route IMHO is to pray directly to God and to trust heaven to manage the intercession of the heavenly saints.
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mozart-250
Guest
Yes and no.
Because dead and death have common earthly meanings that none of us (saint and sinner) are exempt from.
And the Bible uses the words dead and death and that sense also (there are scriptures that say Jesus died for example).
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Thanks mozart!
If I understand you correctly, you suspect that the prayers offered in Revelation by the angel of heaven were prayed to God and God gave them to the angel? Not the other way around? It seems the angel was offering them to God. And then you said:…which begs the question, then why involve the angel at all? Why even invite us dust-ridden humans to join Him if He can manage it? Answer: Because He loves us and wants to share His glory and holiness with us. If we deny the gifts He has given to His angels and Saints, we deny His love.
And…
The Psalmist directly addresses those in heaven and the angels more than once. For example:Psalm 103 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his servants who do his will.
And try Zechariah 1:11-16 to see how the people asked the angel directly for intercession, the angel goes to God, and the people receive mercy.
I would suggest this: stating the angels and saints cannot receive our prayers is contrary to Scripture. I would also suggest it takes away from realizing God’s sharing love in His glory.
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