Protestants: Are people in heaven aware of what happens here?

[mozart-250]

It doesn’t get much clearer than this.

So Scripture clearly teaches that heaven is a place where there is no knowledge, wisdom, activity, and planning?

And nobody in heaven knows anything?

 

[guanophore]

The idea that people are aware of what is going on here is goes agains what Ecclesiastes 9:6-10 teaches:

ja4, scripture doesn’t “teach”. People teach. Catholics go by what Jesus taught. We believe that Jesus fulfilled all of the law, the psalms, and the prophets. There are many verses in the OT that are not used for the construction of Christian doctrine. They are profitable for our instruction, and training in righteousness, but not used as a basis for Christian belief.

Catholics understand and accept that Ecclesiastes if reflecting common nihilisic thinking of the day, but we base our doctrine instead upon what Christ taught:

Mark 12:26-27
26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Jesus teaches us that those who are “in Christ” never perish, and that death does not separate us from Him.

He also teaches us that there is merit in heaven for those that do the will of the Father. Ecclesiastes does not reflect the fullness of Truth as the Teaching of Jesus does. However, if you wish to reject the teaching of Christ about eternal life, that is certainly your perogative!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I think a better example is Lazarus and the rich man.

I personally don’t believe those in heaven are aware of what we are going thru.

How can it be heaven if they see terrible things happening to their loved ones and have no power to stop it?

Isn’t heaven a happy place? It would seem more like hell to have to watch a child suffer at the hands of a brutal murderer or die a slow painful death from cancer and not be able to hold him and comfort him.

To hear our family praying to us to ask God to intercede and then asking us why God did nothing.

I just don’t think heaven is like that.

The rich man was acting on his MEMORY of his family, not on direct observation of what they are doing at that second.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

But you forget, the saints aren’t dead, and they aren’t in Sheol. Sheol, depending on the context, can mean either purgatory or hell. The saints are in heaven. And they are not dead, they share in the eternal life of Jesus Christ. This passage is analagous to the New Testament passage (the exact one escapes me at the moment) that says that the wicked have had all the reward they will ever get right here on earth. When they die, that’s it for them, they have no second chance. Also, keep in mind that this was being told to ancient Israelites who had almost no concept of an afterlife at that time.

I live in Brighon, MI you live in Anaheim, CA We are both members of the body of christ, and you don’t see what I am doing, nor do I see what you are doing. Nor do either of us see what is going on in heaven right now.

Isaiah 33 clearly teaches that heaven is a land very far away.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

ja4, scripture doesn’t “teach”. People teach. Catholics go by what Jesus taught. We believe that Jesus fulfilled all of the law, the psalms, and the prophets. There are many verses in the OT that are not used for the construction of Christian doctrine. They are profitable for our instruction, and training in righteousness, but not used as a basis for Christian belief.

Catholics understand and accept that Ecclesiastes if reflecting common nihilisic thinking of the day, but we base our doctrine instead upon what Christ taught:

Mark 12:26-27
26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Jesus teaches us that those who are “in Christ” never perish, and that death does not separate us from Him.

He also teaches us that there is merit in heaven for those that do the will of the Father. Ecclesiastes does not reflect the fullness of Truth as the Teaching of Jesus does. However, if you wish to reject the teaching of Christ about eternal life, that is certainly your perogative!

You are misrepresenting what protestants believe. When we use the word dead, we use it as defined by James in 2:26. Bottom line heaven is not on earth, nor is earth in heaven. They are two seperate places, lands that are very far away from each other. Isaiah 22:16-17.

Everytime you try to redefine our meaning of dead, you lose our respect as being an honest person, who wants to know what we think.

 

[justasking4]

cyberjacques;2846023]But you forget, the saints aren’t dead, and they aren’t in Sheol. Sheol, depending on the context, can mean either purgatory or hell. The saints are in heaven.

i did some checking on Sheol and one reference said it was the place of the dead. Do you happen to have a scriptural reference that says that saints are in heaven now?

And they are not dead, they share in the eternal life of Jesus Christ. This passage is analagous to the New Testament passage (the exact one escapes me at the moment) that says that the wicked have had all the reward they will ever get right here on earth. When they die, that’s it for them, they have no second chance.

I agree that christians have eternal life in Christ. What i don’t see in scripture where these saints who have died are interacting in some way with this world.

Also, keep in mind that this was being told to ancient Israelites who had almost no concept of an afterlife at that time.

I disagree with this. Ecclesiastes alone has a lot to say about this. Daniel 12:2 is another.

 

[justasking4]

So Scripture clearly teaches that heaven is a place where there is no knowledge, wisdom, activity, and planning?

And nobody in heaven knows anything?

No. The context for what you are referring to is about life here on earth. Once a person dies thats it. No more can be done in this world.

 

[Angainor]

Are people in heaven aware of what happens here?

I’m quite sure they don’t know everything that happens here, as in an omniscient knowledge of what I am thinking at the moment.

Do they know some things? I don’t know. Maybe.

 

[cyberjacques]

I live in Brighon, MI you live in Anaheim, CA We are both members of the body of christ, and you don’t see what I am doing, nor do I see what you are doing. Nor do either of us see what is going on in heaven right now.

Isaiah 33 clearly teaches that heaven is a land very far away.

Neither of us has yet been resurrected, glorified, and accepted into the full presence of God. Our perception and knowledge is limited, but theirs is not. Is distance an obstacle to God? Hardly, so why should it be an obstacle to those in His presence? Besides, you’re thinking too temporally. Heaven is an eternal place, no more subject to the concept of distance or time than God Himself.

i did some checking on Sheol and one reference said it was the place of the dead. Do you happen to have a scriptural reference that says that saints are in heaven now?

Matthew 22:30
“And concerning the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.”

According to Jesus, the saints are not only in heaven, but are at least as glorified as the angels. Are the angels in heaven ignorant of what is happening here? The angels serve God for all eternity, and so do the saints. And I doubt they spend all their time fluffing clouds and gathering sunbeams. :heaven: Not to mention the references in Revelations about the saints coming down with Jesus. Where exactly are they coming down from, if not heaven? If you would like a little more insight into what the saints are up to, read my signature.

God bless!

 

[guanophore]

I live in Brighon, MI you live in Anaheim, CA We are both members of the body of christ, and you don’t see what I am doing, nor do I see what you are doing. Nor do either of us see what is going on in heaven right now.

Isaiah 33 clearly teaches that heaven is a land very far away.

That may be, but Catholic Teaching is based on the Teachings of Jesus, who says that the Kingdom of Heaven is among us.

 

[guanophore]

You are misrepresenting what protestants believe. When we use the word dead, we use it as defined by James in 2:26. Bottom line heaven is not on earth, nor is earth in heaven. They are two seperate places, lands that are very far away from each other. Isaiah 22:16-17.

Everytime you try to redefine our meaning of dead, you lose our respect as being an honest person, who wants to know what we think.

That is regrettable, but every time you try to redefine the precepts of the Kingdom in such a manner that is inconsistent with the apostolic teaching, you lose my respect as not being interested in what Jesus wants you to know. what you think, and what I think is really irrelevant. What matters is what Jesus taught. he taught that the thief would be with him in paradise.

 

[guanophore]

I agree that christians have eternal life in Christ. What i don’t see in scripture where these saints who have died are interacting in some way with this world.

Please explain how you have disposed of the scripture about Samuel interacting with Saul, and Moses and Elija interacting with Jesus. Since you dont “see” these, how do you make them invisible?

No. The context for what you are referring to is about life here on earth. Once a person dies thats it. No more can be done in this world.

Somebody better tell Jesus!

Well, ja4, one wonders. If you are defiantly opposing the communion of the saints, why are you trolling on a Catholic forum. surely you realize that all faithful Catholics believe otherwise?

 

[Ginger2]

re: post 142 I agree

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The transfiguration was already answered.

Jesus is God and as such…

You are not God and as such …

 

[andzy]

The transfiguration was already answered.
Jesus is God and as such…
You are not God and as such …

Not quite sure what you mean with this…
Do you mean that Jesus could summon Moses and Elijah, but we cannot? It’s true, but what does that have to do with saints being aware of what’s going on on earth? We aren’t some magicians or sorcerers summoning the saints.
The point with Transfiguration is that it is one of Biblical precedents where people who’ve died are aware of events on the earth. And there is no Biblical support to assume that Moses and Elijah were in a “drugged-like” condition oblivious to their surroundings; after all, they saw and conversed with Christ who had an earthly (with that I mean physical) body.

 

[BrewMax]

I read a non-Catholic Christian’s post stating that people in heaven “have no knowledge of what happens on earth as you have none of heaven now.”

What do you think?

They know.

 

[Marc1152]

But you forget, the saints aren’t dead, and they aren’t in Sheol. Sheol, depending on the context, can mean either purgatory or hell. The saints are in heaven. And they are not dead, they share in the eternal life of Jesus Christ. This passage is analogous to the New Testament passage (the exact one escapes me at the moment) that says that the wicked have had all the reward they will ever get right here on earth. When they die, that’s it for them, they have no second chance. Also, keep in mind that this was being told to ancient Israelites who had almost no concept of an afterlife at that time.

My Priest ( Orthodox) tells the story of a Protestant person who said to him “You cant pray to the dead”

To which he answered “Dead???”

We also have to refer to the Early Church Fathers for their interpretation of scripture and not rely on our own reading. They consistently uphold the Tradition of the Church that we survive after our passing and will even be raised again in or own bodies at the final judgement, not even to mention the Saints who are close to the Lord…

I think the Fathers and the Saints of the past knew how to understand and properly interpret scripture. I will stick with them and not try to reinvent the wheel.

 

[agangbern]

…that are Biblical.

Do you want me to list the Scriptures that say Jesus died.

If Jesus died being God the Son, the heavenly saints have also died.

I am not objecting to your “common earthly meanings” so there is no need for you to do listing. The point is: “common earthly meanings” is not similar to “heavenly meanings”. Death, in “common earthly meaning”, does not mean the same thing in “heavenly meaning”. Christ died, yes in common earthly meaning. But not in heavenly meaning, for the Christ abides forever, lives forever; he is life himself.

 

[cyberjacques]

My Priest ( Orthodox) tells the story of a Protestant person who said to him “You cant pray to the dead”

To which he answered “Dead???”

We also have to refer to the Early Church Fathers for their interpretation of scripture and not rely on our own reading. They consistently uphold the Tradition of the Church that we survive after our passing and will even be raised again in or own bodies at the final judgement, not even to mention the Saints who are close to the Lord…

I think the Fathers and the Saints of the past knew how to understand and properly interpret scripture. I will stick with them and not try to reinvent the wheel.

Well said! However, I have discovered that many non-Catholics don’t take the early church fathers seriously, so I don’t usually reference them in a context such as this. But perhaps I should, just for good measure. Thanks!

 

[murphdog261]

I live in Brighon, MI you live in Anaheim, CA We are both members of the body of christ, and you don’t see what I am doing, nor do I see what you are doing. Nor do either of us see what is going on in heaven right now.

Isaiah 33 clearly teaches that heaven is a land very far away.

I dorm at a college hundreds of miles away from my parents, yet I can still pray for them. Why can’t the saints in Heaven pray for my parents when I ask them to?