Protestants, can a Catholic Priest forgive sins?

[Ginger2]

*Ginger –

…Any 7 year old who has made their first Holy Communion would tell you that a priest absolves sin by the power vested in him by God but that God sees the heart of the penitent and if the latter is unrepentant the sins are not forgiven.

Cinette

My point exaclty!

If a priest absolves sin by the power vested in him by God but that God sees the heart of the penitent and if the latter is unrepentant the sins are not forgiven.

The priest always says “your sins are forgiven” but sometimes those sins are not forgiven.

 

[Ginger2]

“Why do Protestants always seem to be consumed with Catholic teaching and not their own?” We don’t argue with your beliefs. We might ask what your beliefs are and then accept the explanation for what it is – your beliefs.

Look at the title.

Protestants were asked their beliefs on a Catholic doctrine. When we answer, Catholics engage us in debate by telling us we are wrong. Then we are accused of being obsessed with Catholic doctrine. And told “We don’t argue with your beliefs. We might ask what your beliefs are and then accept the explanation for what it is – your beliefs.”

That’s not true. Catholics asked our beliefs on the priest forgiving sins. Did any of you accept? No, you engaged us in debate and now criticize us for responding.

You are not asking out of curiosity as the above quote suggests. You want to convince us your beliefs are right and ours are wrong.

That’s fine…But, at least be honest and stop making false accusations.

 

[Ginger2]

No it isn’t. The Trinity is NOT PLAINLY found in scripture or there would not have been heresies such as Modalism, Monarchianism, Patripassionism, Socinianism and Tritheism.

Well it’s clear to me, but this is better left for another thread…

 

[Ginger2]

Jesus Christ forgives sin. He delegated the authority to His Church to do so in His name. Sins are absolved in the name of the Holy Trinity by Catholic priests.

absolution = a formal freeing

A priest may also remove censures, interdicts, and excommunications imposed by the Church, as a lawful agent of Its governance.

Critics, do you have a clear understanding of what actually happens in the Sacrament of Penance?

This I agree with - it is Scripturally sound.

 

[llblarosa]

From a Protestant Convert to Catholicism:

Protestants are concerned about converting Catholics because they believe that they are responsible for converting us to save us from the fires of hell. If they do not try, then their souls will be in danger. And this is an interesting thing, because many Protestants go out visiting homes to talk to sinners and to try to convince them of their need for God, but they use questionable methods. These methods include things called “The Bridge” and “The Roman Road,” and they are very often manipulative. I was encouraged to do so with women who were considering abortion/adoption. It was clear to me that, given their struggle/pain, it was more important to be a loving listener than to try to manipulate conversation toward an opportunity to prace the methods above.

Moreover, I was told that it wasn’t me that was saving these people, it was God who did so through me. So am I not, by definition, a mediator then? The concept is not a difficult one.

Thus, the priest is a mediator as well. And even more so, because Jesus gave him this authority.

Blessings,

Lisa
Former Baptist, now committed Catholic!

 

[Peter_J]

When Paul couldn’t heal someone, it was because God took away the gift of healing from Paul. NOT because God was unable, but because Paul had no power of his own - only what God gave him for as long as God desired.

 

[Cinette]

I have not yet taken the the to study the Scripture, but I have not forgotten.

I am home today but need to get ahead on work as I will be gone the next 2 days. Just thought I should let those of you who are discussing this with me know…

We all know God doesn’t lose His power. God is unchanging.

But human beings and spirits only have as much power as God gives them. And God can and does take away that power anytime He sees fit.

Have I prayed for a sick person who was not healed?

When I pray, I always ask God’s will be done. We know that no one lives forever. We must all die once. So for me to ask and expect people will not die is counter to the Will of God.

People sometimes come to me to ask for prayer as they have heard from others I have a gift. I always tell them it is up to God, but whatever happens they can trust God is answering their prayers in the best way possible - even if He doesn’t give them exactly what they have requested, they can rest assured they have received something better.

Cinette,

I wish you would stop taking what I say and applying it where I did not intend. It is not productive.

When Paul couldn’t heal someone, it was because God took away the gift of healing from Paul. NOT because God was unable, but because Paul had no power of his own - only what God gave him for as long as God desired.

*That, my dear, is your interpretation. If someone has the power to heal it means that God will heal thru the intercession of that person. It was not Paul who had the power to heal but he had the charism but ultimately the power came from God. God might decide that he will not heal a certain person because he has other plans for that person. It doesn’t mean that he took the gift of healing away from Paul.

I would like to understand your reasoning behind what you say about Paul losing the “power to heal” Where do you get that from? I have never heard of this before. Kindly explain. *

 

[Cinette]

Look at the title.

Protestants were asked their beliefs on a Catholic doctrine. When we answer, Catholics engage us in debate by telling us we are wrong. Then we are accused of being obsessed with Catholic doctrine. And told “We don’t argue with your beliefs. We might ask what your beliefs are and then accept the explanation for what it is – your beliefs.”

That’s not true. Catholics asked our beliefs on the priest forgiving sins. Did any of you accept? No, you engaged us in debate and now criticize us for responding.

You are not asking out of curiosity as the above quote suggests. You want to convince us your beliefs are right and ours are wrong.

That’s fine…But, at least be honest and stop making false accusations.

Ginger - you are not presenting the facts correctly. You told us what you believe about Confession. We then told you the facts about our belief and you insisted we were wrong. You would not accept our clarification and kept harping on the same thing.

If this is about your understanding of a Church teaching and you misunderstand that teaching we can set the record straight. After all it is the beliefs we have. You are within your rights not to accept our beliefs but you must not argue that we are wrong about what we believe.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

From a Protestant Convert to Catholicism:

Protestants are concerned about converting Catholics because they believe that they are responsible for converting us to save us from the fires of hell. If they do not try, then their souls will be in danger. And this is an interesting thing, because many Protestants go out visiting homes to talk to sinners and to try to convince them of their need for God, but they use questionable methods. These methods include things called “The Bridge” and “The Roman Road,” and they are very often manipulative. I was encouraged to do so with women who were considering abortion/adoption. It was clear to me that, given their struggle/pain, it was more important to be a loving listener than to try to manipulate conversation toward an opportunity to prace the methods above.

Ugh. I’ve run into that too and always hated it. Fortunately for me, I was raised to study scripture for myself and I always knew that was an awful approach. Nothing like those sorts of visitations exists in Scripture. Blechh. No wonder you became Catholic.

Moreover, I was told that it wasn’t me that was saving these people, it was God who did so through me. So am I not, by definition, a mediator then? The concept is not a difficult one.

Thus, the priest is a mediator as well. And even more so, because Jesus gave him this authority.

I can see why some people would use the term “mediator” in that context. The Protestant version I’m most familiar with sees “mediator” as a one-man position, i.e. there’s only one mediator between two parties. You can introduce your buddy to a mediator, but the mediator is the mediator and not you.

My point doesn’t really have any bearing on the OP. God could in theory give the ability to forgive to whoever he wants. The question is, did he, and to whom, and under what circumstances? The difference between Protestant and Catholic (and Orthodox, for that matter) answers has to do with each tradition’s view on scripture and tradition interpretation. Those differences are so fundamental that this thread isn’t going to resolve them by going after an oblique issue.

 

[benedictus2]

Well it’s clear to me, but this is better left for another thread…

Maybe for you. But the point is, if **it is really plainly **clear, **everyone **should arrive at the same conclusion.

 

[benedictus2]

Ginger - you are not presenting the facts correctly. You told us what you believe about Confession. We then told you the facts about our belief and you insisted we were wrong. You would not accept our clarification and kept harping on the same thing.

This same problem always arises when you debate protestants.

If a Catholic says ABC means DEF and protestant says not it means GHI, when the catholic says it means DEF because of the facts of JKL and MNO, they just keep saying no it means GHI without even rebutting the JKL and MNO claim when that has been shown to refute GHI.

 

[llblarosa]

Re: The previous number.

This has been my experience with Protestants, and I have attended many different denominations.

Although I know a good many Protestants who love the Lord (I’ve no doubt of it), most of them focus on memorizing Bible verses. But I maintain that memorizing Bible verses does no good in bolstering one’s faith, unless you know the context of those verses and unless they mesh with the entirety of the Bible. One has to get outside the standard proof texts and study. (Otherwise, it is not your faith, it is the pastors’.) This is not common in Protestantville. Protestant churches love “feel good” types of Bible studies, but I found very few challenging. Interestingly, the one I liked most used a book by a Catholic brother, Brother Lawrence, Practice the Presence of Christ. The rest of it is fluff!

Blessings,

Lisa

 

[Cinette]

GINGER - DID YOU READ THIS?

Ginger –

I have gone back to look at the postings on this thread to try to understand you better. I want to be fair. When there is a discussion we need to know something about our interlocutor – there have to be some preconditions (this is universal). In your “profile” you identify yourself as being Protestant. That is very broad because there are many different kinds of Protestants: Lutherans do not believe as Baptists and Baptists do not believe as Methodists or Penticostals or Evangelicals or Presbyterians (one ex-Presbyterian called them the “split Ps). So one has no idea exactly what your position is except non-Catholic.

In post #14 the questions you pose do not give the impression that you grew up Catholic because they are basic and elementary. Any 7 year old who has made their first Holy Communion would tell you that a priest absolves sin by the power vested in him by God but that God sees the heart of the penitent and if the latter is unrepentant the sins are not forgiven.

In post #40 “When a priest says “Your sins are forgiven” he is deceiving that Catholic – he is unwittingly telling a lie.” This is nonsense and if he were telling a lie it would not be unwittingly anyway (unwittingly means without knowing – the priest is not uneducated). Priests are trained in the seminaries over a period of several years – sometimes 10 years,

Then you kept on and on about the priest not being able to forgive sins (totally ignoring John 20:21-23) etc. etc. and a number of people went to great lengths to explain to you about confession but you persisted. You see Ginger we were explaining what the Church teaches and what we believe. If you do not agree that is fine but don’t keep on about it.

Then you said that some Catholics think the confessional gives them a “free pass for sinning” – the Catholic who believes that has to be mentally retarded. Your friend who thought he could commit “premeditated venial sins” must have been looking out the window during catechism classes.

We know that “scriptures don’t contradict themselves” – any well formed Catholic will tell you that and I am sure many Protestants also.

#59 is an excellent and painstaking explanation of Confession by Reuben – still in post #65 you ask “How does a Catholic know he is forgiven, since we have established the priest cannot remove sins from an insincere confessor”. I can’t believe that you can ask that after all the explanations you were given. On top of it you insist you were “raised Catholic”!!! It is not possible. And you wonder why a number of posters began to doubt your credentials? In #66 Reuben again patiently explains the Catholic belief on confession.

As OneTrueCathApos said in posting #72 “Why do Protestants always seem to be consumed with Catholic teaching and not their own?” We don’t argue with your beliefs. We might ask what your beliefs are and then accept the explanation for what it is – your beliefs.

#73 This is ridiculous posting because it is arguing about something that is agreed on both sides!!! Then you go on to say “A person can want to be forgiven without being repentant”. ???

#85 Anyone who sincerely repents and asks forgiveness from God will be forgiven - without the need of a priest. - Gospel according to Ginger2.

#87 Reuben patiently and painstakingly explains for the umpteenth time! Patience is indeed a virtue.

No wonder people were becoming suspicious of you because from your utterances nobody would guess let alone believe that you were “raised Catholic”. But that is not the point. What got us all irritated was your persistence and your inability to accept our beliefs and move on. You kept on and on about confession and never reached any conclusion

#106 A good post by you. You made sense and raised a good point “confessing is edifying…open up about problems in their lives and seek change.” Agreed. “….we need the entire Word of God.” Here we had some hope that our discussions had advanced because we had reached consensus. But then you argue on things we both believe – what is the sense in that? #114 The questions you ask and your comments do not attest to being Catholic.

#124 Ufamtobie raises doubts about your Catholicity – She asked you to respond “in the name of Jesus Christ”. You see Ginger when one has a discussion there has to be some preconditions.

In #165 you talk about Jesus giving the Holy Spirit to his disciples who gave the Holy Spirit to others who were not able to pass the Holy Spirit to anyone. These are statements that no Christian would make since we all know that we cannot “pass on” the Holy Spirit to anyone. The Holy Spirit is God – the third person of the Trinity! In #169 you again present arguments on topics about which we all agree thus causing confusion.

Then in #176 you say “Yes Cinette you did a very good job of explaining” and we think we are making progress and then you say silly things about St Paul losing the power to heal and on and on and on.

Ginger, now reflect and try to be reasonable. Apply some common sense. We are not against you.

Cinette

 

[Ginger2]

Maybe for you. But the point is, if **it is really plainly **clear, **everyone **should arrive at the same conclusion.

Your human logic fails.

The Bible says the Gospel is hidden from those who are perishing.

It will only be seen and clear when God reveals it to each of - and in His timing, not ours.

It was plain Jesus was the promised Messiah, yet some could not see it even with him standing right in front of them. Jesus spoke the truth, yet some called him a liar. Jesus worked greater miracles than any one before him, yet some called him demon possessed.

The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God.

 

[Ginger2]

GINGER - DID YOU READ THIS?

Cinette

Did you see post #320? I haven’t time for in depth responses right now. My time will be extremely limited until at least Friday afternoon.

But I will respond as soon as I have time.

 

[llblarosa]

I would like to know if Ginger is a Baptist and if she believes in the “once saved, always saved” doctrine of that church.

I ask this because she states that confession gives Catholics a free pass to sin. What does she believe “once saved, always saved” doctrine does (if indeed she is Baptist). If not, I would have to say that, as a former Protestant myself, I was a member of three different Baptist churches, Church of God, and a non-demoninational church. I have also attended reformed churches, Pentecostal churches, Methodist churches, Presbyterian churches, Lutheran churches, and I think perhaps a few others that I have forgotten, so I think I am quite safe when I say that there are just as many who think it is okay to drop to your knees on your own and pray for God’s forgiveness and then continue on your merry way living exactly as they had before. In fact, this is easier. If you have ever had a mortal sin to confess, you know what I mean. For the truly penitent, confession is very difficult, because the penitent one knows that he has offended God, whom he loves deeply.
When I converted to Catholicism, I realized that my unconfessed sin was like a burden I had been carrying around for years. I tried to speak to my pastors about it on several occasions, but they all ignored me/made light of it. I was never free of this sin and it kept causing me to stumble. Some pastors said that I was too scrupulous, some said I could be free of sin if I was truly saved (I still do not know how this is possible - he must be pretty comfortable with himself), and some did not think it worth discussing.
Now, I know that I cannot be free of it until I confess it. Confession makes me own the sin. I cannot make excuses for myself or make light of it. It never fails to make me weep, when I think of all God has done for me and how he must grieve when I deliberately hurt Him. But when absolution comes, I walk out lighter and joyful that I chose to rectify it. And when I afterwards take the Eucharist, I know that I have truly been cleansed. I continue on thereafter confident, stronger, newly resolved, and I will continue to do so for the rest of my life. It makes me wonder about the martyrs, who, once having had the courage to say “yes, I am a Christian and I will not deny him” faced their own terrible deaths. What joy they must have experienced when they met him face to face!

Blessings,

Lisa

 

[benedictus2]

Ginger –

I have gone back to look at the postings on this thread to try to understand you better. I want to be fair. When there is a discussion we need to know something about our interlocutor – there have to be some preconditions (this is universal). In your “profile” you identify yourself as being Protestant. That is very broad because there are many different kinds of Protestants: Lutherans do not believe as Baptists and Baptists do not believe as Methodists or Penticostals or Evangelicals or Presbyterians (one ex-Presbyterian called them the “split Ps). So one has no idea exactly what your position is except non-Catholic.

In post #14 the questions you pose do not give the impression that you grew up Catholic because they are basic and elementary. Any 7 year old who has made their first Holy Communion would tell you that a priest absolves sin by the power vested in him by God but that God sees the heart of the penitent and if the latter is unrepentant the sins are not forgiven.

…
…
…
…

In #165 you talk about Jesus giving the Holy Spirit to his disciples who gave the Holy Spirit to others who were not able to pass the Holy Spirit to anyone. These are statements that no Christian would make since we all know that we cannot “pass on” the Holy Spirit to anyone. The Holy Spirit is God – the third person of the Trinity! In #169 you again present arguments on topics about which we all agree thus causing confusion.

Then in #176 you say “Yes Cinette you did a very good job of explaining” and we think we are making progress and then you say silly things about St Paul losing the power to heal and on and on and on.

Ginger, now reflect and try to be reasonable. Apply some common sense. We are not against you.

Cinette

Wow! Great Post :clapping:

 

[benedictus2]

Your human logic fails.

The Bible says the Gospel is hidden from those who are perishing.

It will only be seen and clear when God reveals it to each of - and in His timing, not ours.

It was plain Jesus was the promised Messiah, yet some could not see it even with him standing right in front of them. Jesus spoke the truth, yet some called him a liar. Jesus worked greater miracles than any one before him, yet some called him demon possessed.

The cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God.

Well your kind of thinking IS ILLOGICAL.

How can you say it is plain then at the same time claim it is plain only to those who are saved.

It is NOT PLAIN that Jesus is the Messiah or else the Jews would not still be waiting for one.

It is only through careful and indepth study and a lot of help from the Holy Spirit that some have actually come around to this belief.

If something is plain, IT IS PLAIN. Otherwise, when you put pre-conditions, IT IS NOT LONGER PLAIN.

And who determines who is perishing. You? So anyone who does not agree with your conclusion is therefore perishing because they cannot PLAINLY SEE what YOU can see.?

Now if that is not the height of delusion I don’t know what else is.

Oh and yes, I have human logic. What else kind of logic is there? Logic only fails when the conclusions arrived at are illogical and there was nothing illogical in my statement.

 

[Leonius]

You are off topic.

Besides, it is clear you all have already decided I am a liar. And at this point I find it difficult to “believe” you really want the “TRUTH”.

You are the one who raised this topic, the least you can do is answer it.

It seems to me you have never had the Catholic Faith.

So I to ask you:

Share with me why you left, and in the name of Jesus Christ tell me the TRUTH did you go to:

1. Mass every Sunday or daily. Or did you miss Mass frequently?
2. Did you recieve the Most Holy Eucharist when you did go to Mass.?
3. How often did you go to confession and did you love to go to confession or was it bothersome?
4. Did you go to Mass on Holy Days of Obligation?
5. During the week did you go and visit the Most Holy Eucharist you know just sit there in front of our God and Worship Him.

I ask these questions because I want to know in the name of Jesus why you truly left the Church.

I ask you for the love of Jesus tell the TRUTH whether you really was a Catholic or not.

May the Lord Open you Mind and Heart to know the TRUTH. AMEN

 

[Peter_J]

Maybe for you. But the point is, if it is really plainly clear, everyone should arrive at the same conclusion.

I’ll nominate this for Post of the Month.