Protestants, can a Catholic Priest forgive sins?

[Ginger2]

This is just another example of how erroneous some of your “beliefs” really are.

We seem to be going in circles because you keep misinterpreting what I write.

I am tired of repeating answers simply because you have forgotten that I already answered or refuse to accept my answers at face value.

I showed you that I did not bring up heretics, but was responding to a comment suggesting heretics are believers.

Perhaps this is my fault… I keep forgetting that Catholics define some terms differently from the rest of the world.

Heretic:

1. a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
2. Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3. anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

You see, we are discussing heretics from two totally different definitions.

Since this is the case, I see no profit incontinuing the discussion. Have a Happy New Year.

 

[benedictus2]

benedictus2,

OK, I see what you are saying, now.

But, since the Bible says Only One God, all other gods are false gods,…

Those who believe Jesus is a “lessor god” or “an angel” or “a good man” or simply “a prophet” are not believers because they are denying Jesus.

To be a Christian believer, you must believe that Jesus is who he said he is! If you do not believe Jesus is God incarnate, you are not a believer - you are a deny-er.

If you proclaim something contrary to what has been revealed to us by God, you are a heretic.

The criterion that belief was necessary was only brought up by you.

As I have said the only question we are trying to sort out is whether the Bible is plain or not and now we have established that IT IS NOT because you are a believer and yet you do not fully understand the Bible yourself. So the discussion of this topic now ends.

But just to clarify the error on your post above:

Some of the Trinitarian heresies I mentioned in my post number 313 did not deny Christ’s divinity. They believed Jesus was God. So by your own definition these heretics were actually believers.

Tritheism, Modalism and Monarchianism all affirm that Jesus is God.

Here is what those heretical doctrines are about:

Tritheism: There are three Gods, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

Modalism: God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three consecutive modes, or forms.

Monarchians, God is one person, God the Father and God the Son were one and the same person.

If you had actually carefully pondered my posts and found out for yourself what the heresies I mentioned were all about, this issue would have been resolved many posts ago.

 

[joe370]

Confession…

Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Matthew 28:20

Here Jesus says , “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me…” --immediately following that He says to His chosen Apostles,** “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."**

Jesus clearly delegates authority/power to His Apostolic Church in His stead!

Ironically, protestants insist that new members follow the pattern set forth by Jesus, transferred to His Apostolic Church to baptize their disciples, *“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." *–But completely ignore the pattern set forth by Jesus, transferred to His Apostolic Church, to forgive or retain sins, *“Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” *–and again, behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." These are commandments set forth by Jesus in perpetuity; they are impossible to refute, for they are in your bible!

Can we pick and chose the commandments set forth by Jesus Christ as we see fit --predicated upon the traditions of a church built on mere men in lieu of Jesus Christ’s One Church built on the Apostles and Prophets? Wouldn’t your protestant church leaders chastise me if I started my own church predicated on the authority of the bible (sola scriptura) --and announced to my congregation that Jesus’ command to *“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit… *is once and for all abrogated? Wouldn’t I unjustly catch some major criticism/opposition from the Protestant community? --Even though I am simply employing the same authority (private interpretation of my only authority –the bible) that all protestants employ, which is why the protestant world is so divided. In my defense, all I would have to say is, you are not the boss of me. I interpret the bible correctly; you are the one that interpreted it incorrectly—please see your bible if you don’t believe me. You go to your bible --quote Matthew 28:20 and tell me, see, I told you so, and I in turn, defy logic and simply tell you, as protestants tell me vis-a-vis confession, you are wrong –see how frustrating and illogical it can be from a catholic perspective!

*And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. *(Simon Barjona receives a revelation directly from God)–*And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, *(name change to kepha which means rock) --*and upon this rock *(clearly the 2nd kepha refers back to the 1st kepha, not to Simons revelation --not to JESUS) –I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Jesus’ established Church will never fail, which begs the question, why is there so many churches in the world today, NOT built on Simon renamed Kepha and the Apostles and Prophets) --*And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: *(the kingdom promised to both Jew and gentile in the O.T. --KEYS BEING A SYMBOL OF AUTHORITY)–*and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. *

Jesus clearly delegates authority/power to His Apostolic Church in His stead!

Catholics believe that was Jesus’ promise to protect the Church from doctrinal error. This doctrinal protection is called infallibility. It does not mean that catholics leaders throughout history, or in the future would not be “indefectible” on issues other than doctrine; that is an illogical proposition, for we are all sinners, as were the Apostles.

*And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
*
All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus Christ, but Jesus still says, tell it unto the church: (not tell it unto Jesus) --but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. They are no longer a member of Jesus’ Church, His Mystical Body, the House of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth --with Jesus as the Head and Savior of His Mystical Body, the Church…

 

[joe370]

…Again, Jesus clearly delegates ultimate authority/power to His Apostolic Church in His stead! Do you belong to This Church, granted ultimate authority by God in first century Palestine (modern day Israel), where Jesus was born, lived, died –where He was raised from the dead? Was your church commanded by Jesus Christ to, “go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this… Did Jesus say, “ I am with you always, even to the end of the age” – to the church you belong to? If not, it certainly makes sense why you reject Jesus’ command to His Apostolic Church to forgive or retain sins in His stead –The forgiveness or retention of sins by any church other than Jesus’ church is not binding since you are missing the One critical component Who makes it all possible –the Holy Spirit, at least in the capacity to forgive sins, or administer the Holy Eucharist.

When Martin Luther, Zwingli, Calvin etc. (all protestant and evangelical churches that followed in their wake) left the Church built by God, left the church promised by God --that His One Church will never be conquered, regardless of the chaff mixed in with wheat, left the church guided by the Holy Spirit in perpetuity --do you really think God went with them? Do you really think He left Himself? The C.C. is His Mystical Body --left His Fathers House, the House of the One Living God –Do you really think He supplanted the One Pillar and Foundation of Truth with one of the bevy of man-made churches in the world today? If so, which one is now the new and improved church, due to Gods inability to prevent the gates of hell (anti-Christ) from prevailing against Christ’s One Mystical Body? Which one is now, thanks to mere men, the new and improved house of the living God, and the new and improved Foundation of Truth? There are literally thousands of man-made churches in the world today. They can’t all be the new and improved church not built by Jesus, for when it comes to truth, they all teach something different. When it comes to truth regarding each unique doctrine, the protestant churches/denomination are utterly fractured, to the core. I don’t think I want to belong to a church that attempted to fracture Jesus’ Mystical Body!

*Jesus climbed into a boat and went back across the lake to his own town. Some people brought to him a paralyzed man on a mat. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed man, “Be encouraged, my child! Your sins are forgiven.” But some of the teachers of religious law said to themselves, “That’s blasphemy! Does he think he’s God? *(Yup!) --*Jesus knew what they were thinking, so he asked them, “Why do you have such evil thoughts in your hearts? Is it easier to say ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or ‘Stand up and walk’? So I will prove to you that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins. Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!” And the man jumped up and went home! Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen. And they praised God for sending a man with such great authority.
*
Evidently, the forgiveness of the paralyzed mans sins took precedence over his physical malady. Jesus then proves that the Son of Man has the authority on earth to forgive sins by healing the paralytic. If Jesus is the Only One who can forgive sins, why did He tell His Apostolic Church to do the same? Jesus Calls Matthew, as He did with the rest of the Apostles, the foundation of His established Apostolic Church, who would continue to bind or loose, forgive or retain sins once Jesus was gone –and it was to be done in perpetuity: *“As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at his tax collector’s booth. “Follow me and be my disciple,”…
*
Perpetuity…

“…I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16

“…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Matthew 28:20

*So Matthew got up and followed him. Later, Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to his home as dinner guests, along with many tax collectors and other disreputable sinners. But when the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with such scum?” When Jesus heard this, he said, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do.” Then he added, “Now go and learn the meaning of this Scripture: ‘I want you to show mercy, not offer (animal) sacrifices.’ For I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.” *

All the members of Jesus’ Church, His Mystical Holy Body are sick/sinful members, which is the very reason why He is the Savior of His Body, the Church; Healthy people don’t need a doctor/Savior!..

 

[joe370]

“…the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,” he said. As he spoke, he showed them the wounds in his hands and his side. They were filled with joy when they saw the Lord! Again he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” John 20:20-23

Only Jesus’ Apostolic Church Received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, and only that church was told, “If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” Jesus said to His Apostolic Church, *“As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.” *If Jesus’ Church is to last “until the end of time” --shouldn’t this pattern of sending new disciples out into the world to forgive sins be repeated, or should it stop with the disciples of the Apostles, depriving future disciples of what was obviously very important to the Salvation of the 1st century Christians --and ultimately invalidating these 2 commands:

“…I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16

“…teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." Matthew 28:20

As Jesus the Christ was sent by the Father to forgive the sins of ALL, so Jesus the Christ sends His apostles/disciples to forgive the sins of ALL who are willing to confess. They unlike Jesus could not read there thoughts! If they want to be forgiven by God, they have to audibly ask for it. This is to be a staple of Jesus’ Church “forever” --thanks to the infallible guiding force of the Holy Spirit and His ability to forgive our sins through the instrumentality of Jesus’ chosen ministers, that function in the same capacity as the Apostles/disciples, bishops, elders of the 1st century:

• “If you love me, obey my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.” *

*"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.”
*
How can Jesus’ Church be led astray vis-a-vis the confession of sins (or any doctrine for that matter) --to the ministers of Jesus’ Church, if the Holy Spirit (GOD) IS LEADING HIS CHURCH INTO ALL TRUTH? Even if a wolf in sheep’s clothing forgives you of yours sins, it is still efficacious because he is simply a conduit through which the Holy Spirit affects this forgiveness! And we all know what the implications are for these wolves in sheep’s clothing are:

*“not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.” *James 3

*“Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn’t we?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!’” *Matthew 7

When the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins, He endows them with the power/authority to do the same with their chosen disciples, and those disciples in turn, through the imposition of hands endow their chosen disciples with the power/authority to do the same with their chosen disciples, and so it goes until Jesus return.

Jesus did not leave His Church without the means to understand the the teachings of Jesus Christ. He promised in John 14: 26,

“The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send will instruct you in everything and remind you of all that I have told you.” And as St. Paul testifies in 1 Timothy 3: 15, the Church is the “pillar and bulwark of
truth.”

With that said, how can Jesus’ Church, comprised of sheep and wolves in sheep’s clothing –ever fail?

We are not saved just because we think or say we we accept Jesus as our Savior. We are saved only when we have done what God has said we must do. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21,* “Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven.” *We must obey all of Gods commandments spelled out in the bible --do God’s will, not man’s will, to enter into Heaven, and that includes going to confession, as per the bible.

 

[guanophore]

We seem to be going in circles because you keep misinterpreting what I write.

That may well be true! Or, have you ever considered that you write in circles, so all those trying to follow it end up going in them?

It seems to me, from reading your post, that you introduce the word “heretics” to the thread:

Since when do we consider heretics “believers”?

All Christians believe the same basic Christian doctrines which are plainly spelled out in Scriptures and summarized in the Apostle’s Creed.

All catholics here disagree with you on three points here. The first is that a person who espouses heresies is the same as a heretic. The second is that a heretic is not a believer, the third is that Scripture does not “plainly spell out” everything, and that is why there are so many factions in Christendom

Not everyone who claims the title Christian, is a Christian.

We are in agreement on this point. However ,the issue is whether or not scripture is plain to Christians. It seems that you are using your own subjective definition, not only what is a Christian, but what the Scriptures “plainly” mean.

I am tired of repeating answers simply because you have forgotten that I already answered or refuse to accept my answers at face value.

I can assure you that as many times as you post falsehoods, I will not accept what you say.

One of these is that heretics are not believers. They are. Another is that the meaning of scripture is “plain”. Another is that your personal understanding of what is a Christian should be the standard. And finally, that Catholic priests have the power from God to forgive sins, an this is “plainly” shown in scripture.

I showed you that I did not bring up heretics, but was responding to a comment suggesting heretics are believers.

Heretics are believers. Their beliefs differ from orthodox beliefs.

Perhaps this is my fault… I keep forgetting that Catholics define some terms differently from the rest of the world.

Definitely.

Heretic:

1. a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
2. Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3. anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.

You see, we are discussing heretics from two totally different definitions.

No, I don’t think so. A person must have been a believer, then rejected right doctrine inorder to be considered a heretic. I also stated that this cannot apply in your case, since you obviously never learned the Apostolic faith in the first place.

Most Protestants, in good faith, espouse heretical doctrines. However, they were brought up in these errant beliefs (such as Sola Scriptura) and don’t realize this is not the faith of the Apostles. The originators of these heresies (Reformers) can rightly be charged with the sin of heresy, because they knew the Apostolic faith, and willfully departed from it. But their spiritual offspring, for the most part, do not know.

Since this is the case, I see no profit incontinuing the discussion. Have a Happy New Year.

Do you mean to say that, if you cannot twist the scriptures to deny the Apostolic faith, then there is no profit in discussion?

Or that, since you are unwilling to agree on a definition of the word “heretic” it is not worth having a discussion?

Perhaps you would consider a biblical definition?

The criterion that belief was necessary was only brought up by you.

As I have said the only question we are trying to sort out is whether the Bible is plain or not and now we have established that IT IS NOT because you are a believer and yet you do not fully understand the Bible yourself. So the discussion of this topic now ends.

But just to clarify the error on your post above:

Some of the Trinitarian heresies I mentioned in my post number 313 did not deny Christ’s divinity. They believed Jesus was God. So by your own definition these heretics were actually believers.

If you had actually carefully pondered my posts and found out for yourself what the heresies I mentioned were all about, this issue would have been resolved many posts ago.

I really have doubts as to whether Ginger2 is here to learn anything. I am not sure why she is here, except maybe she enjoys posting baseless falsehoods.

However, I would like you to know that I find your posts and links interesting and helpful. So, I am sure, do many lurkers.

 

[NonCatholic]

ufamtobie:

John 20: 21-23
He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Clearly Jesus was addressing the power to forgive sins ONLY to his Apostles and to their Successors for the forgivness of sins.

Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
The answer is no one, but God.

Theologians have had a lot of fun dealing with this verse trying to figure out whether He really gave them the Holy Spirit or not. When He said, “When He blew and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit,’” the text does not say they did. Well don’t you believe right then they received the Holy Spirit? No, I believe the Bible tells us in Acts chapter 2 that the Holy Spirit came…when? Pentecost. You say, So what’s going on here? I believe this is a pledge on Christ’s part that the Spirit will come. You see, if they had received the Holy Spirit, take note, if they had received the Holy Spirit, in verse 26 after eight days they’re still locked in that room, if they had received the Holy Spirit they wouldn’t have been locked in that room for eight days. No way because Jesus Himself said, “You shall receive power after the Spirit of God has come upon you, you shall be My…what?..witnesses,” not huddled up in a room with the door locked eight days later. Not only that, the very indications of chapter 21 verse 4 that they didn’t recognize Him and verse 12 that they didn’t recognize Him, show that they didn’t have the Spirit for had they had the Spirit He would have shown them Christ. And so this is simply a pledge that they will receive the Holy Spirit, and they did a few days later, did they not? But, you see, by giving this pledge, they would then when they received the Holy Spirit remember that Jesus had commissioned the Holy Spirit Himself personally and that He was the one dispensing to them the Spirit for He said, “When I go to the Father, I will send the Spirit unto you.” So He gives that pledge right here.

And may I add? This is a pledge for all believers. Every Christian possesses the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cinette]

Guanophore, Benedictus, AC Claire and Joe370 - you have taught me so much with your clear, intelligent and inspiring posts. I love you all - thank you!

Ginger2 you are intelligent but I am afraid this intelligence is obstructed by a stubbornness that prevents you from growth. You do yourself a disservice. I will pray for you because I love you too (believe it or not).

I look forward to more good and profitable debates this 2009. I pray for CAF and hope that this year will be full of blessings and graces.

Happy New Year!
Cinette

 

[joe370]

Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
The answer is no one, but God.

Theologians have had a lot of fun dealing with this verse trying to figure out whether He really gave them the Holy Spirit or not. When He said, “When He blew and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit,’” the text does not say they did. Well don’t you believe right then they received the Holy Spirit? No, I believe the Bible tells us in Acts chapter 2 that the Holy Spirit came…when? Pentecost. You say, So what’s going on here? I believe this is a pledge on Christ’s part that the Spirit will come. You see, if they had received the Holy Spirit, take note, if they had received the Holy Spirit, in verse 26 after eight days they’re still locked in that room, if they had received the Holy Spirit they wouldn’t have been locked in that room for eight days. No way because Jesus Himself said, “You shall receive power after the Spirit of God has come upon you, you shall be My…what?..witnesses,” not huddled up in a room with the door locked eight days later. Not only that, the very indications of chapter 21 verse 4 that they didn’t recognize Him and verse 12 that they didn’t recognize Him, show that they didn’t have the Spirit for had they had the Spirit He would have shown them Christ. And so this is simply a pledge that they will receive the Holy Spirit, and they did a few days later, did they not? But, you see, by giving this pledge, they would then when they received the Holy Spirit remember that Jesus had commissioned the Holy Spirit Himself personally and that He was the one dispensing to them the Spirit for He said, “When I go to the Father, I will send the Spirit unto you.” So He gives that pledge right here.

And may I add? This is a pledge for all believers. Every Christian possesses the Holy Spirit.

So you are saying the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth has been sent to all Christians regardless of church affiliation, regardless of whether Christians even belong to a church, like my sister who calls all churches a lie? She is a staunch sola scriptura advocate; your saying she too possesses the Spirit of Truth? Why did Jesus even bother to build His Church and send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect it if the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth is present with ALL regardless of denomination? I’m not trying to say that you or my sister don’t possess the H.S. --I’m simply saying that the only Church that existed when Jesus promised that the H.S. would be sent to His One Church, was the Apostolic Church! Find that One Church in the world today, and it is still here, due to Jesus’ promise of perpetuity, and you have found Jesus’ Church which He established circa 33 AD.

The H.S. abides in all Gods creatures, but the bible tells me that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to His created church born on Pentecost to guide and protect It --to guarantee that His Church maintains one truth regarding any one doctrine; He said He would never leave His church orphans. He makes sure that His followers maintain a sense of unity and oneness --to steer clear of division and dissension; which church in the world today still possesses this mandatory oneness and harmony that is clearly is decreed in your bible?Which church do you recommend I belong to?

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” Colossians 24

Everything done in the name of Jesus Christ should be done for the sake of Jesus’ Mystical Body THE CHURCH!!!

Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

nd they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

arthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

 

[Cinette]

by Joe370

Quote…

“The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send will instruct you in everything and remind you of all that I have told you.” And as St. Paul testifies in 1 Timothy 3: 15, the Church is the “pillar and bulwark of
truth.”

With that said, how can Jesus’ Church, comprised of sheep and wolves in sheep’s clothing –ever fail?

We are not saved just because we think or say we we accept Jesus as our Savior. We are saved only when we have done what God has said we must do. Jesus says in Matthew 7:21,* “Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven.” *We must obey all of Gods commandments spelled out in the bible --do God’s will, not man’s will, to enter into Heaven, and that includes going to confession, as per the bible.

Another clear and wonderful exposition Joe! So appreciated.

It reminds me of the statement “Missionaries of the 21st Century are the laity” and this is also true of many on these forums.

I include Protestants because they keep us on our toes and force us to think and as a consequence we become better Christians, better Catholics.

Thank you Protestants - we love you!



Cinette

 

[benedictus2]

That may well be true! Or, have you ever considered that you write in circles, so all those trying to follow it end up going in them?

I don’t think Ginger writes in circles. But in her effort to divert the topics and avoid answering questions, we end up in circles. If she will just answer straight to the point, a lot of this merry-go-round can be avoided.

Some Protestants in these forums think that dumping Bible verses left, right and centre is enough; sometimes regardless of their relevance.

I really have doubts as to whether Ginger2 is here to learn anything. I am not sure why she is here, except maybe she enjoys posting baseless falsehoods.

I hope she will not be like Hisalone who posts outright lies and even when he found out that they were in fact lies about the Church still continue to post similar lies without checking their veracity.

However, I would like you to know that I find your posts and links interesting and helpful. So, I am sure, do many lurkers.

And I think your posts are excellent. Well thought out and researched . I actually felt rather intimidated seeing your posts and those of others that I did not post for a long time after joining for fear of sounding stupid. But then I thought, one can only do what one can.

 

[benedictus2]

Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
The answer is no one, but God.

Theologians have had a lot of fun dealing with this verse trying to figure out whether He really gave them the Holy Spirit or not. When He said, “When He blew and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit,’” the text does not say they did.

Well don’t you believe right then they received the Holy Spirit? No, I believe the Bible tells us in Acts chapter 2 that the Holy Spirit came…when? Pentecost. You say, So what’s going on here? I believe this is a pledge on Christ’s part that the Spirit will come.

You see, if they had received the Holy Spirit, take note, if they had received the Holy Spirit, in verse 26 after eight days they’re still locked in that room, if they had received the Holy Spirit they wouldn’t have been locked in that room for eight days. No way because Jesus Himself said, “You shall receive power after the Spirit of God has come upon you, you shall be My…what?..witnesses,” not huddled up in a room with the door locked eight days later. Not only that, the very indications of chapter 21 verse 4 that they didn’t recognize Him and verse 12 that they didn’t recognize Him, show that they didn’t have the
Spirit for had they had the Spirit He would have shown them Christ.

And so this is simply a pledge that they will receive the Holy Spirit, and they did a few days later, did they not? But, you see, by giving this pledge, they would then when they received the Holy Spirit remember that Jesus had commissioned the Holy Spirit Himself personally and that He was the one dispensing to them the Spirit for He said, “When I go to the Father, I will send the Spirit unto you.” So He gives that pledge right here.

This is probably the most ridiculous interpretation of this verse I have ever read.

How do you know that they did not receive the Holy Spirit? Because they did not start evangelizing as on the day at Pentecost?

Do you realize that you are actually saying that the risen Christ is doing something futile here. There He was breathing on them to give them the Spirit, but then goes oops sorry, I just made a blunder there, no can do.

**When God breathes on you to give you the Holy Spirit, you receive the Holy Spirit period. **

Christ does not make futile actions. When He cursed the fig tree, the fig tree whithered. When He told the lame man get up and walk, the man walked.

When He breathed on them to given them theHoly Spirit, He gave them the Holy Spirit.

This action of Jesus breathing on the disciples actually recalls Genesis when God the Father breathed on Adam to give Him life and also recalls the re-animation of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 because God put His spirit on them.

The purpose of the giviing of the Holy Spirit in this instance is different to Pentecost in Acts as evidenced by the very next words. Here, He is giving them the Holy Spirit to give them the power to forgive sins.

The pledge to send the Holy Spirit he made in John 16: 7-14 not in this verse. In this verse, He is clearly imparting His Spirit. The action of breathing on them says that.

That giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (which by the way is the birthday of the Catholic Church) is for evanglization.

This is what happens when you have an agenda. You start forcing the Bible to say what it is not saying.

And may I add? This is a pledge for all believers. Every Christian possesses the Holy Spirit.

True, every Christian posses the Holy Spirit. So going by your litmus test of whether one posseses the Spirit or not, have you ever healed anyone, made someone see, walk or raised anyone from the dead?

 

[benedictus2]

Guanophore, Benedictus, AC Claire and Joe370 - you have taught me so much with your clear, intelligent and inspiring posts. I love you all - thank you!

Ginger2 you are intelligent but I am afraid this intelligence is obstructed by a stubbornness that prevents you from growth. You do yourself a disservice. I will pray for you because I love you too (believe it or not).

I look forward to more good and profitable debates this 2009. I pray for CAF and hope that this year will be full of blessings and graces.

Happy New Year!
Cinette

Well I like your posts too.

And I agree, I like Ginger too. She does make intelligient comments even if some are derailing and does come up with interesting points that gets one thinking.

 

[ac_claire]

Guanophore, Benedictus, AC Claire and Joe370 - you have taught me so much with your clear, intelligent and inspiring posts. I love you all - thank you!

Ginger2 you are intelligent but I am afraid this intelligence is obstructed by a stubbornness that prevents you from growth. You do yourself a disservice. I will pray for you because I love you too (believe it or not).

I look forward to more good and profitable debates this 2009. I pray for CAF and hope that this year will be full of blessings and graces.

Happy New Year!
Cinette

Thank you, Cinette, and back at you!

Happy New Year! :heaven:

 

[guanophore]

Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
The answer is no one, but God.

Theologians have had a lot of fun dealing with this verse trying to figure out whether He really gave them the Holy Spirit or not. When He said, “When He blew and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit,’” the text does not say they did. Well don’t you believe right then they received the Holy Spirit? No, I believe the Bible tells us in Acts chapter 2 that the Holy Spirit came…when? Pentecost. You say, So what’s going on here? I believe this is a pledge on Christ’s part that the Spirit will come. You see, if they had received the Holy Spirit, take note, if they had received the Holy Spirit, in verse 26 after eight days they’re still locked in that room, if they had received the Holy Spirit they wouldn’t have been locked in that room for eight days. No way because Jesus Himself said, “You shall receive power after the Spirit of God has come upon you, you shall be My…what?..witnesses,” not huddled up in a room with the door locked eight days later. Not only that, the very indications of chapter 21 verse 4 that they didn’t recognize Him and verse 12 that they didn’t recognize Him, show that they didn’t have the Spirit for had they had the Spirit He would have shown them Christ. And so this is simply a pledge that they will receive the Holy Spirit, and they did a few days later, did they not? But, you see, by giving this pledge, they would then when they received the Holy Spirit remember that Jesus had commissioned the Holy Spirit Himself personally and that He was the one dispensing to them the Spirit for He said, “When I go to the Father, I will send the Spirit unto you.” So He gives that pledge right here.

And may I add? This is a pledge for all believers. Every Christian possesses the Holy Spirit.

It is true that every Christian is a partaker in the Spirit, but not all Christians are given the same ministries and gifts. The forgiveness and retention of sins was given to the Apostles, and those whom they ordained to succeed them.

Just like healing, God works through people He has chosen.

 

[NonCatholic]

This is probably the most ridiculous interpretation of this verse I have ever read.

How do you know that they did not receive the Holy Spirit? Because they did not start evangelizing as on the day at Pentecost?

Do you realize that you are actually saying that the risen Christ is doing something futile here. There He was breathing on them to give them the Spirit, but then goes oops sorry, I just made a blunder there, no can do.

**When God breathes on you to give you the Holy Spirit, you receive the Holy Spirit period. **

Christ does not make futile actions. When He cursed the fig tree, the fig tree whithered. When He told the lame man get up and walk, the man walked.

When He breathed on them to given them theHoly Spirit, He gave them the Holy Spirit.

This action of Jesus breathing on the disciples actually recalls Genesis when God the Father breathed on Adam to give Him life and also recalls the re-animation of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 because God put His spirit on them.

The purpose of the giviing of the Holy Spirit in this instance is different to Pentecost in Acts as evidenced by the very next words. Here, He is giving them the Holy Spirit to give them the power to forgive sins.

The pledge to send the Holy Spirit he made in John 16: 7-14 not in this verse. In this verse, He is clearly imparting His Spirit. The action of breathing on them says that.

That giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (which by the way is the birthday of the Catholic Church) is for evanglization.

This is what happens when you have an agenda. You start forcing the Bible to say what it is not saying.

True, every Christian posses the Holy Spirit. So going by your litmus test of whether one posseses the Spirit or not, have you ever healed anyone, made someone see, walk or raised anyone from the dead?

If they already had the Holy Spirit, then why did Jesus say the following?
Acts 1:6-8 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Scripture interprets Scripture…that is my interpretation…what is yours?

 

[guanophore]

This is probably the most ridiculous interpretation of this verse I have ever read.

How do you know that they did not receive the Holy Spirit? Because they did not start evangelizing as on the day at Pentecost?

Do you realize that you are actually saying that the risen Christ is doing something futile here. There He was breathing on them to give them the Spirit, but then goes oops sorry, I just made a blunder there, no can do.

**When God breathes on you to give you the Holy Spirit, you receive the Holy Spirit period. **

Christ does not make futile actions. When He cursed the fig tree, the fig tree whithered. When He told the lame man get up and walk, the man walked.

When He breathed on them to given them theHoly Spirit, He gave them the Holy Spirit.

This action of Jesus breathing on the disciples actually recalls Genesis when God the Father breathed on Adam to give Him life and also recalls the re-animation of the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 because God put His spirit on them.

The purpose of the giviing of the Holy Spirit in this instance is different to Pentecost in Acts as evidenced by the very next words. Here, He is giving them the Holy Spirit to give them the power to forgive sins.

The pledge to send the Holy Spirit he made in John 16: 7-14 not in this verse. In this verse, He is clearly imparting His Spirit. The action of breathing on them says that.

That giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (which by the way is the birthday of the Catholic Church) is for evanglization.

This is what happens when you have an agenda. You start forcing the Bible to say what it is not saying.

True, every Christian posses the Holy Spirit. So going by your litmus test of whether one posseses the Spirit or not, have you ever healed anyone, made someone see, walk or raised anyone from the dead?

It is true that the Disciples, though they received the HS, did not manifest this immediately. We believe we are sealed in the HS at baptism too, but infants don’t manifest this immediately. People tend to look for signs, and doubt the Word of God. But, I agree with you, if he says “receive” and breathes then it is done. The fact that it took a bit longer to manifest the reality of it notwithstanding.

It would not surprise me if they did not at first “get it” about forgiving sins, either.

 

[guanophore]

If they already had the Holy Spirit, then why did Jesus say the following?
Acts 1:6-8 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Scripture interprets Scripture…that is my interpretation…what is yours?

This is a very good question. We know that there are many manifestations of the HS. John was filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb, yet Jesus said that the least in the Kingdom was greater than John.

Jesus said that the Apostles had the HS “upon” them, and that He would be “in” them.

Mary clearly had the HS, or the angel would not have greeted her with the title “Hail, Full of Grace”. Yet the HS overshadowed her in a new and different way than before.

There are many infillings, and various manifestations. Clearly the HS “came upon” the believers in the upper room with manifestations different than before.

 

[NonCatholic]

I might add that receiving power is key, we all are powerless until we receive the Holy Spirit, at least when it comes to the things of God. The Apostles received the power of the spirit to speak in tongues and signs and wonders; something we do not have have, but we have the power to be led to all truth after being saved. I don’t think Jesus breathing was futile, but I believe He was showing or demonstrating that which was to occur as it did 8 days later.
Just like Romans 8 where the word glorified is used, it is written as though it already happened because it it such a sure thing…Greeks often used the past tense for something that had not happened, but because it was so certain to happen they emphasized this by putting in the past tense.

 

[Cinette]

I might add that receiving power is key, we all are powerless until we receive the Holy Spirit, at least when it comes to the things of God.

This is so true. Once you have yielded to the Holy Spirit you are empowered as never before in so many different ways. As someone once said, “it sticks”. I am overwhelmed at times of things I say when speaking of the Faith. I have found myself saying things that I had never even thought of before…all because of the H Spirit! Someone once remarked in mid sentence that there was something “special” about me - the night before at a Life in the Spirit Seminar someone had prayed over me during “baptism of the Holy Spirit”. I had never met the person concerned before…

The Holy Spirit “plays tricks” with you.