Protestants cannot be saved?

[Godfollower]

I’m not sure how many protestants there were in the 12th century when Innocent III lived, But most of the Lutherans and Episcopalians of that century did go to Hell

All zero of them, right?

 

[Evan]

All zero of them, right?

Yup… all zero:thumbsup:

 

[kaycee]

Only if the only thing you’re wanting out of the gospel is not to go to Hell. A Christian understands though that love, devotion, obediance and connection to and for Our Heavenly Father are the goals of the Gospel avoiding Hell is a side benefit.

I disagree. 1 Ti 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners–of whom I am the worst.

Being saved from Hell is the primary benifit, everything else is secondary.

 

[kaycee]

I don’t think they’re good arguments for hiding the gospel. Do you?

Jeremy

Well if one can go to heaven by just being a good person, without knowing the gospel, then the Christ died in vain.

Preaching the Gospel then becomes a sentence of eternal hell to good people who are Muslims, Jews, Budhists, etc… and dont accept the Gospel.

 

[Keikiolu]

just throwing a wrench…

If i witness to an atheist, and give him all the truth, and he refuses it, he is condemned right?

Assuming he “understands” what he’s been given,… which is unlikely, yes,… he’s toast.

…unless he isn’t because God has other plans for him.

So, what happens if i discuss these same things with a protestant and THEY refuse to believe it. Does the same hold true for them?

Yes, as explained above.

Can YOU know that he’s been “condemned”…?

No.

Example, you have someone that truely believes and follows OSAS. to the letter… Believes water baptism is merely talking about our womb birth, etc.

If in discussions, I point out how flawed each of these arguments are, would they still be saved?

Honest question, not boding for an argument.

In Christ

Do they “believe you”…?

Telling someone the Truth is an act of Charity on your part, which you’re bound to do as a duty.

You do your best. You assume your object of charity does their best. You leave it at that.

The question to get to with one "not perceived of as ‘saved’ " is why they aren’t fully Catholic?

Once you get to this problem, then you have something very basic to discuss that will make a difference.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[CatholicNick]

Normal circumstances, no, protestants cannot be saved.

It is a Dogma of the Church “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” Outside the Church there is no Salvation.

Only through invincible ignorance, may a Protestant, or any non-Catholic be saved, and only then, if they are in a state of Grace.

Please, lets stop with the relativism which is rampant on these boards and be frank. Protestants need to know this.

 

[BlestOne]

God wants all of his children to be with him in heaven. Hell is a conscious choice… to reject God. What that is really saying is that without the fullness of the Catholic Church, it is much more difficult to remain faithful without the graces of the sacraments and the magesterium to help us not to misinterpret, etc… all the gifts that Christ left us when he established his church. Now, The “Church” is all Christians, The Catholics have the fullness of the faith but they are not the only Christians, It is a little more difficult for a nC because they lack that fullness and the graces we receive in the sacraments.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jemfinch forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
I don’t think they’re good arguments for hiding the gospel. Do you?

Jeremy

Well if one can go to heaven by just being a good person, without knowing the gospel, then the Christ died in vain.

So, Christ died in vain because the Gospel is “of no use” in helping people do what is necessary to get into heaven?

Would more people “be good people” with or without the Gospel?

The answer to that question tell one whether the Gospel is “of NO use” or “of ANY use” in increasing the number of good people.

The goal is not to increase the number of people who know the Gospel, but to increase the number of good people,… which is accomplished BY increasing the number of people who know the Gospel.

Preaching the Gospel then becomes a sentence of eternal hell to good people who are Muslims, Jews, Budhists, etc… and dont accept the Gospel.

Good people do not become bad people by not accepting the Gospel.

They become bad people by acting as bad people.

They can perhaps not know that they are in fact accepting and living the “rules” of the Gospel while simultaneously thinking that they are not “accepting” the Gospel.

The fact that they are incorrect in thinking that they are rejecting the Gospel is irrelevant to their being “saved” by their actions. (Their “actions” being a subconcious reaction to God’s grace, otherwise they wouldn’t be “good” actions at all.)

In other words, God saves them even from themselves, and doesn’t bother to tell them that He’s done so 'til later…!

Gotta love a God like that, eh…!?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

Normal circumstances, no, protestants cannot be saved.

It is a Dogma of the Church “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” Outside the Church there is no Salvation.

Only through invincible ignorance, may a Protestant, or any non-Catholic be saved, and only then, if they are in a state of Grace.

Please, lets stop with the relativism which is rampant on these boards and be frank. Protestants need to know this.

Hear hear…!!:clapping:

The simple fact is that it’s REALLY really hard to do outside the Church,…

…and only moderately really hard from within the Church.

So up your chances and get with the freakin’ program, people…!!!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[kaycee]

Normal circumstances, no, protestants cannot be saved.

It is a Dogma of the Church “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” Outside the Church there is no Salvation.

Only through invincible ignorance, may a Protestant, or any non-Catholic be saved, and only then, if they are in a state of Grace.

Please, lets stop with the relativism which is rampant on these boards and be frank. Protestants need to know this.

Guess you dont agree with Vatican II that we are separted brethren?

How can Catholics who dont think Vatican II is binding and those that do have unity?

 

[CatholicNick]

Woah there, Disagree with Vatican II? think it isnt binding?

Those are big accusations there, I never said (or hold) such things.

 

[CatholicNick]

Vatican II didn’t let people off the hook from the NECESSITY to convert to the Catholic Church. Vatican II is not a super council, it must be interpreted in light of Tradition, and what the Church has ALWAYS taught.

There was nothing anti-VaticanII about what I said. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is a DOGMA.

Protestants are indeed separated brethren.

 

[kaycee]

They can perhaps not know that they are in fact accepting and living the “rules” of the Gospel while simultaneously thinking that they are not “accepting” the Gospel.

The fact that they are incorrect in thinking that they are rejecting the Gospel is irrelevant to their being “saved” by their actions. (Their “actions” being a subconcious reaction to God’s grace, otherwise they wouldn’t be “good” actions at all.)

In other words, God saves them even from themselves, and doesn’t bother to tell them that He’s done so 'til later…!

So following the golden rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Doing good, being a good person, feeding the poor, helping the sick, being honest, etc… while denying Christ will get you to heaven? AND then once in heaven you can find out the truth about Jesus?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Guess you dont agree with Vatican II that we are separted brethren?

Kaycee-

In your particular case, I would have some concern…you’ve hung around here long enough to know that there are some strong arguments for Catholic doctrine. Therefore, you do not have the same degree of ignorance that others in your “faith community” have since they do not dialogue with Catholics daily.

I think you have a grave responsibility to research these things more seriously than most.

You have probably already lost your claim to “ignorance”…I wouldn’t bet my eternal life on my “invincible” intransigence.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

So following the golden rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Doing good, being a good person, feeding the poor, helping the sick, being honest, etc… while denying Christ will get you to heaven? AND then once in heaven you can find out the truth about Jesus?

Of course.

Just like the ancients and the Jews who died before Jesus was born. They heard the gospel later.

Does your faith community send them all to hell?

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
They can perhaps not know that they are in fact accepting and living the “rules” of the Gospel while simultaneously thinking that they are not “accepting” the Gospel.

The fact that they are incorrect in thinking that they are rejecting the Gospel is irrelevant to their being “saved” by their actions. (Their “actions” being a subconcious reaction to God’s grace, otherwise they wouldn’t be “good” actions at all.)

In other words, God saves them even from themselves, and doesn’t bother to tell them that He’s done so 'til later…!

So following the golden rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Doing good, being a good person, feeding the poor, helping the sick, being honest, etc… while denying Christ will get you to heaven? AND then once in heaven you can find out the truth about Jesus?

If you TRULY haven’t had the correct understanding of the Gospel imparted to you such that you understand it, and you deny the “misunderstanding that was presented to you as Christ Jesus”, and yet, through God’s infinite mercy STILL manage to do good in such a way that would be identical to it (or nearly enough to get you to purgatory), then heaven isn’t an impossibility,… as the Church teaches.



Got a problem with that…!?

Take it up with those impervious tough-guys over at the Magisterium…! They will kick your backside EVERY freakin’ time…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Tomster]

The use of the term “the Soul” of the Church as distinct from “the Body,” in the sense that Catholics belong to the Body and the Soul, and non-Catholics to the Soul only, and therefore may be saved because of their good faith, does convey an element of truth, but not the whole of it. The continual stressing of the “good faith” of those who are unfortunately out of visible communion with us, does seem to undermine the traditional horror of heresy and of heretics, replacing it by a horror of “heresiarchs”; it seems to put a premium on muddle-headedness, and to reserve the stigma of heresy for the clear headed ones. After all, the malice of heresy lies in the rending of the Body of Christ: what our Lord meant to be one, heretics, even material heretics, divide. They may be in good faith - and that good faith will at some moment lead them to see what they had not seen before - but the fact remains that their error or ignorance, however inculpable, retards the edification of the Body of Christ. Even the claims of charity should not blind us to the importance of growth in the knowledge of objective truth, as contrasted with the limitations of error, however well meaning it may be.

In this matter the advice of St. Paul to the Ephesians is relevant: “With all humility and mildness, with patience supporting one another in charity, careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit, as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one Faith, one Baptism.” (Ephesians 4:2 ff.)

The notions of Redemption, Baptism, and the Mystical Body are combined by the Apostle in the following magnificent passage: “Christ also loved the Church and delivered himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, purifying her her in the bath of water by means of the word, and that he might present her to himself a glorious Church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and without blemish . . . Surely no man ever hated his own flesh, no, he does nourish and cherish it, even as Christ the Church, because we are members of his body.” (Ephesians 5:25-27, 29)

 

[kaycee]

Kaycee-

In your particular case, I would have some concern…you’ve hung around here long enough to know that there are some strong arguments for Catholic doctrine. Therefore, you do not have the same degree of ignorance that others in your “faith community” have since they do not dialogue with Catholics daily.

I think you have a grave responsibility to research these things more seriously than most.

You have probably already lost your claim to “ignorance”…I wouldn’t bet my eternal life on my “invincible” intransigence.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

I have carefully examined the evidence, have heard the RC apologists and dont think the RCC evidence is that compelling. I am fairly familiar with RCC doctrine as I was raised Catholic for 27 years.

The RCC does not teach the biblical Gospel of Grace, unmerited favor.

 

[kaycee]

Of course.

Just like the ancients and the Jews who died before Jesus was born. They heard the gospel later.

Does your faith community send them all to hell?

Certainly not, you know better. Abraham was saved by Faith as were all the OT hall of famers!

 

[OneForTruth]

So does that mean the Church believes some Protestants can be saved? Because even Protestants cannot deny Peter’s church, which was specifically built by the Lord himself, and in that sense, they are acknowledging the one Church that we, as Catholics, are a part of today.

However, if we are convinced by scripture that the RCC is not teaching in accordance with the scriptures, then we are obligated to remove ourselves so that we might become a part of an assembly that preaches the gospel in the proper manner. We are justified by (one the basis of) faith alone. The RCC does not teach that.