Protestants cannot be saved?

[mgrobertson79]

I will have to admit to only scanning through these posts, since there once again seems to be much repetition, but the Church’s teaching on the whole thing is pretty succinctly stated, both in the catechism and in this passage from Unitatis Redintegratio, 3):

But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. **These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.**

Yes, we should be trying to help Protestants find the fullness of the faith. But to be making claims that they cannot be saved is just pure and simply outside of Church teaching and back into Feeneyism.

Peace,

What you just said is centuries of Church teaching, even a dogma of the faith, no longer matters, basically that all who believed that were wrong. How can these be reconciled. The councils have been clear, the Popes have been clear and even Vatican II, with its ambiguity makes a stand on the issue. How can we say that Christ didn’t mean they had no life in them when they didn’t eat of His Body and drink of His Blood. We can’t change that. Forget feeneyism, he is a heretic anyway, right?

I believe invincible ignorance was mentioned a few times here. If a person, who through no fault of their own, is ignorant of a mortal sin, I believe it stands to reason that they can’t be held accountable(culpable in the eyes of the church) for said sin. This does not lessen the need for us to share this message with all we come in contact with. It is our job to share Christ with the world, not just go about like it doesn’t really matter, or someone else will do it. Not only do we need to share Christ, but his Church as well.

 

[ncjohn]

What you just said is centuries of Church teaching, even a dogma of the faith, no longer matters, basically that all who believed that were wrong.

No, I didn’t say that. All I did was quote what the Church teaches. If you think there is a discrepancy that needs to be reconciled, you probably need to look into how they have done that.

We can’t change that. Forget feeneyism, he is a heretic anyway, right?

That’s exactly the point. Feeney tried to make exactly the argument that people are trying to make here. It was outside the Church’s teaching then–pre-Vatican 2, per Pius XII–and it’s outside of Church teaching now.

I believe invincible ignorance was mentioned a few times here. If a person, who through no fault of their own, is ignorant of a mortal sin, I believe it stands to reason that they can’t be held accountable(culpable in the eyes of the church) for said sin. This does not lessen the need for us to share this message with all we come in contact with. It is our job to share Christ with the world, not just go about like it doesn’t really matter, or someone else will do it. Not only do we need to share Christ, but his Church as well.

I agree with you fully that those who are through no fault of their own unaware of something can’t be held accountable for it. And I fully agree, as I stated in my previous post, that we should be helping people understand and come to the fullness of the faith.

But while you may choose to believe the “invincible ignorance” argument, the Church does not make any such qualification there that I can see.

How does one reconcile the various views that have been present through the centuries? I’m not an expert there, but I know that doctrine has developed in many areas over the centuries. But regardless of what the reconciliation is or isn’t, we are bound to what the Church proclaims at this time when it is taught as doctrine, which to the best of my knowledge this is.

Peace,

 

[Carol_Coombe]

No, I didn’t say that. All I did was quote what the Church teaches. If you think there is a discrepancy that needs to be reconciled, you probably need to look into how they have done that.

That’s exactly the point. Feeney tried to make exactly the argument that people are trying to make here. It was outside the Church’s teaching then–pre-Vatican 2, per Pius XII–and it’s outside of Church teaching now.

I agree with you fully that those who are through no fault of their own unaware of something can’t be held accountable for it. And I fully agree, as I stated in my previous post, that we should be helping people understand and come to the fullness of the faith.

But while you may choose to believe the “invincible ignorance” argument, the Church does not make any such qualification there that I can see.

How does one reconcile the various views that have been present through the centuries? I’m not an expert there, but I know that doctrine has developed in many areas over the centuries. But regardless of what the reconciliation is or isn’t, we are bound to what the Church proclaims at this time when it is taught as doctrine, which to the best of my knowledge this is.

Peace,

Thank you.

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[down_under]

Actually, now that you mention preogatives, here goes.

This has been the teaching of the Church since the time of the Apostles.

well thank you for backing me up, but I must commend you. You did a better job. I hope all goes well as you continue to sort out your vocation.

 

[HalleluYAH]

The Catholic Church does not declare that “Protestants” or anybody else, for that matter, cannot be saved. It does declare that the “fullness to the means of salvation” is found in Catholic faith and in the sacramental life of the Church.

LOL^^^.

 

[Tomster]

I agree!

Tomster… you should be more tactful in the way you approach non-Catholic Christians in this matter. I know already of one person in the forum who you’ve managed to turn away from Catholicism with your confrontational attitude. If you love the Catholic Church, believe it is the Light of Salvation, then you should do all that you can to bring others into it… which does not include berating them.

Truth is truth. Some people cannot handle it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

LOL^^^.

[823](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/823.htm’) "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as ‘alone holy,’ loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God."289 The Church, then, is "the holy People of God,"290 and her members are called "saints."291
[824](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/824.htm’) United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

Truth is truth. Some people cannot handle it.

How does this attitude reflect that of Jesus?

John 3:17-18
7 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him."

 

[HalleluYAH]

[823](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/823.htm’) "The Church . . . is held, as a matter of faith, to be unfailingly holy. This is because Christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is hailed as ‘alone holy,’ loved the Church as his Bride, giving himself up for her so as to sanctify her; he joined her to himself as his body and endowed her with the gift of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God."289 The Church, then, is "the holy People of God,"290 and her members are called "saints."291
[824](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/824.htm’) United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

What does any of the above post have to do with salvation being found in found in Catholic faith and in the sacramental life of the Church.

 

[ncjohn]

Truth is truth. Some people cannot handle it.

That’s true. Some people are not yet ready, for whatever reason–at different places in their journey from where you may be. But you are where you are only by the gift of grace and having been shown by someone who cares.

But if we do not model it lovingly, and show the beauty of the faith and the Church, it is highly likely that they will be pushed even further away and that a vigorous anti-Catholic may come into being from feeling that their worst suspicions were confirmed.

“Truth without love is a noisy gong, and a clashing cymbal”. I will not claim that you are not acting from love, as I have no way of knowing. But your words and actions can certainly be perceived that way regardless of what your true intentions may be.

And they’ll know we are His disciples by the way we love one another.

Peace,

 

[Tomster]

I fail to recognize the relevance of your point to the topic of this thread, while my previous posts have dealt with the conflict between Protestants, and Catholics, I have at the least attempted to unify Protestants with Catholics, and to stand on the ground, common between us, that we are in fact of the universal church in . . . .

Faced by his failure to control his violent and senuous character, Luther evolved a theory which is a combination of pessimism and easy optimism. Through the fall of Adam, he maintained, our nature has become essentially evil and must ever remain evil; it is a mass of corruption, and even the redeeming blood of our Savior does not cleanse or heal it; and he pressed his theory so far as to draw the conclusion that all our actions are sinful, not excluding those which we look upon as virtuous. Here we the pessimism of the system: but now comes its easy optimism. For Luther taught that if only we will have complete confidence that the merits of Christ are actually apllied to us, our sins are ignored, as it were, by God; our souls remain hideous in themselves, but God covers them over with the merits of Christ so that these are looked upon by him as being ours; our sins are “imputed” to us, but the merits of Christ are.

continued

 

[guanophore]

What does any of the above post have to do with salvation being found in found in Catholic faith and in the sacramental life of the Church.

From the perspective of the Catholic Church, there is only one church, and it is all Catholic. Whenever “church” is used in the bible, it is talking about Catholic church.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. " Eph 4:3-7

There IS only one body, one spirit, and one faith. All the sacraments, (baptism being one) are instituted by Jesus, and reside within that one faith.

“The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself or by some person authorized by him [that is, a duly ordained priest]. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be, just as wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church” Irenaeus (8:1, 2). @ 107 AD

 

[clmowry]

God has a different set of “rules” for each person depending upon their faith?

So to use an extreme example, if someone sincerely believes that blowing up school children in the name of their religion is a one way ticket to heaven would be just as correct in their actions as say Mother Theresa was in hers?

Chuck

You have quoted the rules of the Catholic Church. They do not apply to all Christians, nor to persons of other faiths.

 

[Tomster]

This then is the famous doctine of Justification of Faith. For the Lutheran, then, justification does not mean (as it means for a Catholic) an inner change by which the soul becomes a sacred thing, but a mere external non-imputation of sins; and faith means, not an assent to truths divinely revealed, but a personal persuasion that the merits of Christ have been apllied to us. This faith, in the Lutheran system, is the only thing which counts: good works are of no avail - indeed, they are impossible, since all our actions are made evil by the evil source from which they spring. A further conclusion from Luther’s principles is that there can be no such thing as Merit.

With the coming of Protestantism in all its many forms, the whole dogma of original sin became the subject matter of attack, denial, and controversy. Some of the Protestant theologians attenuated its importance and its effects, other exaggerated them beyond all measure, even going so far as to say that human nature was wholly corrupt and free will destroyed. The spread of these errors made it necessary for the Church to define her teachings clearly at Trent.

 

[HalleluYAH]

From the perspective of the Catholic Church, there is only one church, and it is all Catholic. Whenever “church” is used in the bible, it is talking about Catholic church.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. " Eph 4:3-7

There IS only one body, one spirit, and one faith. All the sacraments, (baptism being one) are instituted by Jesus, and reside within that one faith.

“The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself or by some person authorized by him [that is, a duly ordained priest]. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be, just as wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church” Irenaeus (8:1, 2). @ 107 AD

That is all well and dandy for the ‘catholic’ church. Sadly for you in the RC, your teachings are largely based on lies. Even Yahshua Himself warned of these false teachings… such as, forbidding to eat meats, obstaining from marriage, calling men ‘father’, teaching of salvation though works, praying to mary/saints (i.e. the dead), praying in repetition (i.e. the rosary) etc.

The ‘church’ are those who are born again of HIS holy spirit.

 

[Randy_Carson]

What does any of the above post have to do with salvation being found in found in Catholic faith and in the sacramental life of the Church.

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292*** It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that “by the grace of God we acquire holiness.”***294

Confirmation.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Truth is truth. Some people cannot handle it.

Perhaps you are one of them! Ever think of that?

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[Carol_Coombe]

This then is the famous doctine of Justification of Faith. For the Lutheran, then, justification does not mean (as it means for a Catholic) an inner change by which the soul becomes a sacred thing, but a mere external non-imputation of sins; and faith means, not an assent to truths divinely revealed, but a personal persuasion that the merits of Christ have been apllied to us. This faith, in the Lutheran system, is the only thing which counts: good works are of no avail - indeed, they are impossible, since all our actions are made evil by the evil source from which they spring. A further conclusion from Luther’s principles is that there can be no such thing as Merit.

With the coming of Protestantism in all its many forms, the whole dogma of original sin became the subject matter of attack, denial, and controversy. Some of the Protestant theologians attenuated its importance and its effects, other exaggerated them beyond all measure, even going so far as to say that human nature was wholly corrupt and free will destroyed. The spread of these errors made it necessary for the Church to define her teachings clearly at Trent.

Tomster, sometimes we find crackpot understandings of the facts of history and theology; sometimes they are just mistaken as in the case of Copernicus and Galileo and the sun. But crackpot understandings cannot lead to correction of mistakes I think. Better that we are sure of a balanced history of actual events.

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[HalleluYAH]

824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292*** It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that “by the grace of God we acquire holiness.”***294

Confirmation.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

I am NOT interested in the futile words of the RCC.

 

[mgrobertson79]

I am NOT interested in the futile words of the RCC.

Faith without works is dead. You can’t take one passage of Scripture and run with it, you have to take it as a whole. Besides, God did not stop speaking to mankind with the end of Scripture, He continues to talk and work today. Miracles do still happen. Also, if the words of the RCC are futile as you say, why are you here? If you are here to lead others out of the Church, be gone with you, that is not welcome here. If you are here to convince us the we do not need the Church or the Sacraments, be gone with you. I can not be charitable when someone tries to mislead others, especially when their eternal soul is at stake.