Protestants cannot be saved?

[Carol_Coombe]

It is true that each human being must reckon with God as an individual. I think it is also true that no one person can know Absolute TTruth.

There is of course the problem of defining ‘Absolute Truth’ on one hand, and of knowing that individuals will each, inevitably, have their own perceptions of the Absolute Truth. For example, we think we know what the colour blue is. Apart from the fact that there are multitudinous colours of blue, we do not see each hue of blue the same. We think we know what a lake is. But if five people sat down and described what image was in their mind about the word ‘lake’, each would give a very different answer. I see Lac des Chats Sauvages at Ottawa as generic lake; you might see …?

However, The One Absolute Truth [Christ?] was incarnated, and revealed HImself to us. This revelation has been passed down through the apostolic succession. therefore,we have a source to know this truth.

I think that perhaps too much has been made of the apostolic succession (heresy!): there have been too many historical anomalies in the succession. There are nevertheless other authorities within and without Catholicism, including those of the Orthodox Churches, rabbinical scholars, and protestant theologians - never mind scholars of other faiths, especially Islam.

Yes, there has been much variation in our understanding, but if we can grasp that it is our understanding that varies, and not the Truth, we can continue to work at understanding the Revelation until we come into compliance with it.

Yes, it is like the metaphor of the perception of ‘blue’ or ‘lake’ above. It would help to clarify what you mean by ‘understanding the Revelation until we come into compliance with it’.

It seems that there are many that are acculturated, and have not made the journey of faith… I agree that each of us must press on with sincerity by whatever means our tiny minds and souls can grasp. We search for him and feel after him like groping in a dark room. I would not call this cafeteria. Especially in your case!

I am not sure about the ‘cafeteria’ bit: perhaps I have been blackmailed by posters into believing that if I do not buy the whole kit and caboodle of Catholicism I am lost, for if I know salvation is available through this route but reject it, then I am destined to burn in hell. Whoa! This is rather scary for people who are younger than I: and I am thinking it could be scary for me as well. This is not a good basis on which to establish a relationship with Christ - which is what all this is about after all.

***Carol ***So what is ‘the truth Christ passed on’ (and I do not accept that for all Christians it is only only only the interpretation of the Catholic papacy and magisterium that counts here), and how do we define ‘acceptance’ of that truth?
Guan I assume this question is rhetorical?

The question was not meant to be rhetorical, but perhaps - like matters of the informed conscience, Christ’s mission and God’s intention, the timing of Christ’s mission - it should be on a new thread. And of course, if you ask your spiritual director what it is you are required to believe, to accept - the bottom line - for confirmation, there are rather vague answers aside from the fact that the Resurrection is the core of faith. Even the catechesis book we use - a ‘popular’ outline by the Redeptorists UK - is opaque on critical matters like the veneration of Mary.

(Who would determine which aspects of faith were true, among various interpretations?) Which is why we so value the magesterium.

Possibly: if it had representatives from Orthodox and protestant (and other) mainline Christian denominations - and possibly from other faiths such as Islam.

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[Carol_Coombe]

That God of Love will never allow anyone to enter Heaven witn any taint of mortal sin.

That’s a fact.

It doesn’t matter who believes it or not!

Just make sure that you are in good with God, and let the rest of us sort ourselves out!

Why are you concerned about the eternal salvation of a pack of ‘hideous protestants’ (as they were described elsewhere)? What is your motivation?

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Ignorance, Jerry.

They do not know that what they are doing is a mortal sin; therefore, they are not fully culpable.

Ironically, the Protestants who hang out on this site are less ignorant than others, so they are more culpable for not converting to the Catholic Church.

These are hard words. And they do not reflect the truth of Christendom, as we understand it from Christ.

As I said to good old Jerry: ‘To thine own self be true. Thou canst not then be false to any man.’ (Shakespeare) I think protestant and Orthodox Christians are intelligent and even occasionally virtuous enough to sort things out for themselves.

And as I asked Jerry - what is your motivation for being so concerned for this lot of wandering sheep, escaped from the papal fold? I have posted a number of possible motivations on your other thread ‘One Apologist’s Perspective’, but I am sure you could add a number more.

Hope this helps!

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[Carol_Coombe]

From the perspective of the Catholic Church, there is only one church, and it is all Catholic. Whenever “church” is used in the bible, it is talking about Catholic church.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. " Eph 4:3-7

There IS only one body, one spirit, and one faith. All the sacraments, (baptism being one) are instituted by Jesus, and reside within that one faith.

“The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself or by some person authorized by him [that is, a duly ordained priest]. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be, just as wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church” Irenaeus (8:1, 2). @ 107 AD

For us relatively relative relativists - maybe. Perhaps the church of the Bible is the universal Church of the body of Christ. Christendom, as it was once called. We never did agree on why Christ did not intervene to prevent the grand schism in the middle ages. We will never agree on who belongs to whom. But maybe, just maybe, there is a possibility that eventually Christendom will return to its original form as the universal Church of Christ.

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[Carol_Coombe]

God has a different set of “rules” for each person depending upon their faith?

So to use an extreme example, if someone sincerely believes that blowing up school children in the name of their religion is a one way ticket to heaven would be just as correct in their actions as say Mother Theresa was in hers?

Chuck

There are truths and there are truths - as I demonstrated above with the metaphors of colour and image. Individuals are not the same; mental landscapes are not the same, ever, particularly where there are differences of culture, experience and age; appropriation of truths is perhaps idiosyncratic for the most part - at least for those who are born into their faith (less so for those who choose to convert from one faith to another).

I also emphasised that there are/would need to be standards for evaluating truth, and its reflection (in the case of Christians) of the mission of Christ and the intentions of God.

On the issue of Mulsim terrorists, we know that they are considered reprehensible renegades by the conventional and even liberal believer. And don’t, for one minute, forget the Crusades: there is a strong parallel, and just because they happened a long time ago, does not mean that they did not happen (Barbara Tuchman, *A Distant Mirror etc). *

Blessings

Jabulani!

 

[mgrobertson79]

On the issue of Mulsim terrorists, we know that they are considered reprehensible renegades by the conventional and even liberal believer. And don’t, for one minute, forget the Crusades: there is a strong parallel, and just because they happened a long time ago, does not mean that they did not happen (Barbara Tuchman, *A Distant Mirror etc). *

Blessings

Jabulani!

Did you know the crusades were started to save Christians from Muslin(Saracen) terrorist. These people, from the beginning have loved the use of fire. Today in Iraq, they use fire in the form of bombs and what has come to be call IED’s to terrorize innocent civilians. We need to call it like it is, these folks have embraced terror since the founding of their religion by Mohamed. They do not serve God, but Satan.

 

[guanophore]

That is all well and dandy for the ‘catholic’ church. Sadly for you in the RC, your teachings are largely based on lies. Even Yahshua Himself warned of these false teachings… such as, forbidding to eat meats, obstaining from marriage, calling men ‘father’, teaching of salvation though works, praying to mary/saints (i.e. the dead), praying in repetition (i.e. the rosary) etc.

The ‘church’ are those who are born again of HIS holy spirit.

Clearly, HalleluYAH, you have no idea what the RC church really teaches. Are you here to learn, or did you just come to see if you can save our poor lost souls?

I am NOT interested in the futile words of the RCC.

What are you interested in?

 

[HalleluYAH]

Faith without works is dead. You can’t take one passage of Scripture and run with it, you have to take it as a whole. Besides, God did not stop speaking to mankind with the end of Scripture, He continues to talk and work today. Miracles do still happen. Also, if the words of the RCC are futile as you say, why are you here? If you are here to lead others out of the Church, be gone with you, that is not welcome here. If you are here to convince us the we do not need the Church or the Sacraments, be gone with you. I can not be charitable when someone tries to mislead others, especially when their eternal soul is at stake.

mislead you away from lies perhaps… I can find hundreds of heresies (i.e. departure from scripture) in the RCC…

obstaining from meats, forbidding to marry, calling men father, and even praying religous utterings and bablings such as the rosary. the RCC also purports praying to statues and saints which are also abominations… must I continue. seriously??? I have pix of your pope john kissing the staue of mary’s feet… is this what Messiah wants from HIS church… the answer is NO. I tried to refrain from going here, but the truth always comes out.

 

[HalleluYAH]

Clearly, HalleluYAH, you have no idea what the RC church really teaches. Are you here to learn, or did you just come to see if you can save our poor lost souls?

What are you interested in?

The WORD of the MOST HIGH… i.e. the bible. all other works can be decieving, especially the RCC which looks honest and descent but is full of poisin.

 

[mgrobertson79]

The WORD of the MOST HIGH… i.e. the bible. all other works can be decieving, especially the RCC which looks honest and descent but is full of poisin.

I think that is enough. The hatred you have for the True Church of Christ is not welcome here.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

Did you know the crusades were started to save Christians from Muslin(Saracen) terrorist. These people, from the beginning have loved the use of fire. Today in Iraq, they use fire in the form of bombs and what has come to be call IED’s to terrorize innocent civilians. We need to call it like it is, these folks have embraced terror since the founding of their religion by Mohamed. They do not serve God, but Satan.

I think that your history is a bit wobbly, and even a look at Wikipedia might help to get a better balance, and a more informed view.

Blessings

 

[Carol_Coombe]

I am NOT interested in the futile words of the RCC.

If you are not interested in the teachings of the Catholic faith, then why are you here? What is your motivation for looking in on these discussions? What do you have to offer? Perhaps you have a new take on an old theme? If not, then why engage?

 

[Carol_Coombe]

mislead you away from lies perhaps… I can find hundreds of heresies (i.e. departure from scripture) in the RCC…

obstaining from meats, forbidding to marry, calling men father, and even praying religous utterings and bablings such as the rosary. the RCC also purports praying to statues and saints which are also abominations… must I continue. seriously??? I have pix of your pope john kissing the staue of mary’s feet… is this what Messiah wants from HIS church… the answer is NO. I tried to refrain from going here, but the truth always comes out.

Rabid and ill-informed attacks are a waste of time when discussing the faith of others. We have all learned that, some of us the hard way. There are less harmful ways - and more honest - to put your points, which right now convince no one.

Remember the terrible intra-faith infighting in Iraq which is killing people, maiming others, and destabilising what was once a developed nation. Remember the terrible onslaughts between Protestants and Catholics in Ireland - part of which I lived through.

Think again before you offer your opinions.

 

[Carol_Coombe]

The WORD of the MOST HIGH… i.e. the bible. all other works can be decieving, especially the RCC which looks honest and descent but is full of poisin.

Can I ask how old you are?

You joined yesterday, and you have posted 43 times. You must have a lot to say that you think needs to be said. Does any of it help us to understand the profound complexity of the separation of Catholic and Protestant and Orthodox Christians, and their apparently independent view of salvation?

 

[mgrobertson79]

I think that your history is a bit wobbly, and even a look at Wikipedia might help to get a better balance, and a more informed view.

Blessings

What part of that is wobbly? Are you saying public education is poor? If you said yes, I’d agree, but there is nothing wobbly here. I’m looking at wikipedia now, I think you may want to do the same. The muslims in the middle east have caused the problems. They have been trying to spread their “caliphate” since the 7th Century. The crusades were in direct response to that. Christians died at the hands of muslims then and do now. They want YOU dead as they want everyone who doesn’t believe their version of islam.

 

[down_under]

These are hard words. And they do not reflect the truth of Christendom, as we understand it from Christ.

Jabulani!

You find this insulting it was not meant to be. he is only pointing out that those who attach the catholic faith the hardest and learn the most about it so the can defeat her arguments better are more often than not those who convert to the faith more quickly than others. he is just stating historcal fact. It was not meant insultingly or to be inflamitory in any way.

 

[down_under]

For us relatively relative relativists - maybe. Perhaps the church of the Bible is the universal Church of the body of Christ. Christendom, as it was once called. We never did agree on why Christ did not intervene to prevent the grand schism in the middle ages. We will never agree on who belongs to whom. But maybe, just maybe, there is a possibility that eventually Christendom will return to its original form as the universal Church of Christ.

Blessings

Jabulani!

The catholic church is the church of the bible. The words of God have never departed from her mouth.

 

[down_under]

On the issue of Mulsim terrorists, we know that they are considered reprehensible renegades by the conventional and even liberal believer. And don’t, for one minute, forget the Crusades: there is a strong parallel, and just because they happened a long time ago, does not mean that they did not happen (Barbara Tuchman, *A Distant Mirror etc). *

Blessings

Jabulani!

Just from what you said right here i can tell you have no concept of the crusdes or what happened then. Or even what was going on in the world at the time. Dont bring up the crusades and think we will get all imbarresed about them. You have never taken a moment of your life to look it up and see what really happened. So please spare us your concept of what you think happened. When it is obvious you just plain dont know. i have studied the question and I know for a fact it is not what people who hate the catholic faith make it out to be. This is a whole nother thread or 3 that we just dont have the space for here. please return to topic and dont be draging us off because you dont like where this one is going.

 

[down_under]

mislead you away from lies perhaps… I can find hundreds of heresies (i.e. departure from scripture) in the RCC…

obstaining from meats, forbidding to marry, calling men father, and even praying religous utterings and bablings such as the rosary. the RCC also purports praying to statues and saints which are also abominations… must I continue. seriously??? I have pix of your pope john kissing the staue of mary’s feet… is this what Messiah wants from HIS church… the answer is NO. I tried to refrain from going here, but the truth always comes out.

The bible is plain that when the bridegroom was with them the did not have to fast and by implication when he was gone they would have to again. I am not totally up on the abstaining argument or how it is heresie, this argument I have never heard (forbidding to marry) maybe you could start a new thread and explain that one
calling men father… that is old hate and just uniformed of you. Everyone who reads a bible knows that serevel times paul calls himself our father in the faith. And we do not pray TO statues and pictures and more than you pray to your dead relitives that you might have pictures of, and might miss dearly. I have seen people kissing pictures of there wives before they go into what they know will be heavy combat. Does this mean they were unfaithful to there spouses? It is the exact same train of thought. That is 2 out of 4. half the things you said Have just been shown to be misstatement of the facts. I am sure there are prefectly good explainations for the other 2. Learn something about the RCC before you declair that you know something about her.

 

[down_under]

I think that is enough. The hatred you have for the True Church of Christ is not welcome here.

He is the only honest protestant here. Or at least the only protestant who truly understands the argument. christ is lunatic liar or God. He is mentally defective because he thought he was God, or he was morrally defective because he knew he was not God and said he was, or HE WAS GOD. There is no middle ground here.

The Pope has the same problem. He has claimed to be the vicor of christ. Once you cliam to be THE athortative interperator of all Gods words you can only be 1 of three thing. mentally defective (you are crazy) morrally defective(you are lying) or YOU ARE THE ATHORTATIVE INTERPERATOR OF GOD. So it only makes perfect sence that if he does not except the third proposition he would hate the church, and should. He is the only honest protestant I have seen on this site. He calls it like he sees it. have charity. You are here to instruct the ignorant. this is a work of mercy.