Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[SHW]

Continued:

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1:4-5).

I can go on and on with these sort of verses … but hopefully you see my point?

I see that God is omniscient because He knows all things. He causes all things, whether originally intended for good or else originally evilly intended, to work for good to those who love God.

Romans 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.”

He called all of us, but we have to answer His call and choose Him (through faith and obedience) in response to His call so that we will be chosen by Him to inherit eternal life. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all. He only predestined (chose) those who were going to answer His call to believe in Him and obey Him until death.

Hebrews 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”

God desires no person to perish.

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

there’s many different views on this (including the idea that Paul was speaking in Greek rhetorical style). However, there’s more than just the Pharaoh reference in Rom. 9 that supports double predestination. Many other verses relay the same idea (the idea that god’s choices in election have nothing to do with human will or effort is a repeated theme in scripture).

God’s Will is just. He does not arbitrarily force some of us to be saved against our will and He does not arbitrarily prevent some of us from being saved against our will.

Double predestination is a false doctrine. God loves all His creation. It is His creation’s rebellion toward God which causes their loss of eternal life because Jesus died as a ransom for all men.

When you read Aquinas or Aristotle (and his metaphysics) it’s hard to say they believed mankind has total free will. Every action and thought has a preceding cause (indeed this is an idea Aristotle uses to prove god exists). Therefore, if actions and events that precede us, which are outside of our control, influence and sometimes dictate our actions – then it’s hard to say humans have a complete level of free will.

It does not matter what they believed unless it is truth! God intervenes in the affairs of men when it suits His Plan. For example: One man decides to murder another man. But, God sees that this is going to happen, so He prevents this murder by causing the would-be murderer’s gun to jam and the opportunity is lost, and He does this because it does not fit into His own Divine Plan for the intended murder victim.

Calvin would never say God is unjust; though he would say it’s difficult for finite man to understand divine justice (since predestination does seem arbitrary from our perspective).

It is impossible for man to understand all of God’s thoughts and ways.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

He stated that he does not pray for the world, but rather only those who the father gave him. He also states that no one can come to the son unless the father draws them. When you take all these sort of statements in tandem; the picture becomes clear. However, yes there is the problem of the verses you elude to (like 1 Tim. 2:3-4). The question is which direction is easier to harmonize; and what makes more sense?

Augustine & Calvin would both say we do not choose god, but rather god chooses us. God does not choose us because he passively looked down the tunnel of time & saw us doing the right thing. As humans, according to scripture, we’re incapable of doing the right thing without divine grace (therefore no amount of meritorious conduct on our part can earn our way into heaven or make us righteous in god’s eyes). God’s choices are made independent of our choices, actions, desires, efforts, and so on.

However, Augustine would say there’s some amount of foreknowledge involved (but he would also say it’s absurd to imagine foreknowledge preceding decree, since that would have the tail wagging the dog and create a logical paradox).

God called all of us since He made all of us in His own image and likeness out of love for us, but not all of us answered His call and also remained faithful until we were approved for eternal life so He chose us according to this foreknowledge even before the earth was created. [Ephesians 1:4]

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Out of God’s mercy and love, He sent His Son to redeem all mankind. Mary was predestined by Divine decree to become the Mother of His Son. This was necessary in order for God’s Plan to come to fruition. However, notice that Mary had to agree to His Plan. She had free will to either accept His Plan or reject His Plan. His “knowing beforehand” by His foreknowledge that she was going to cooperate with His Plan was necessary, but He still did not prevent her from saying no to His Plan. (Of course, He knew that she would not say no, and He knew this fact even before the foundation of the world!) This is foreknowledge preceding decree.

“Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.” Luke 1:38

Jesus was foreordained to ransom all mankind. This is foreknowledge preceding decree. There would have been no need to foreordain Jesus as Savior except for foreknowledge of man’s eventual rebellion (Adam).

1 Peter 1:20 “He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”
**
Double Predestination is a false doctrine.** Jesus did not die as a ransom for “some” men, He died as a ransom for “all” men. Those who inherit eternal life as a result of Jesus’ sacrifice are saved because they feared God and worked righteousness.

Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

Those who do not inherit eternal life, even though Jesus’ died as a ransom for them, are rejected because of their own free will choices to do evil.

Romans 2:6-8 “God, 6 who will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,”

God is Love. He loves all His creation. He desires that no person perish. He shows no partiality. Those who perish do so by their own free will actions.

 

[Worthy5]

*For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8).

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (Romans 9:19-23).

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4).

Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, and, “A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for (Peter 2:7-8).

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep (John 10:25-26).

The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out (John 10:3).

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44).

Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him” (John 6:64-65).

I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours (John 17:9).

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will (Ephesians 1:4-5).*

I can go on and on with these sort of verses … but hopefully you see my point?

Yes … this is passive reprobation (no one, including Calvin, avers otherwise).

there’s many different views on this (including the idea that Paul was speaking in Greek rhetorical style). However, there’s more than just the Pharaoh reference in Rom. 9 that supports double predestination. Many other verses relay the same idea (the idea that god’s choices in election have nothing to do with human will or effort is a repeated theme in scripture).

When you read Aquinas or Aristotle (and his metaphysics) it’s hard to say they believed mankind has total free will. Every action and thought has a preceding cause (indeed this is an idea Aristotle uses to prove god exists). Therefore, if actions and events that precede us, which are outside of our control, influence and sometimes dictate our actions – then it’s hard to say humans have a complete level of free will.

yes & Calvin wouldn’t dispute James here. Moreover, Calvin would never say God is unjust; though he would say it’s difficult for finite man to understand divine justice (since predestination does seem arbitrary from our perspective).

He stated that he does not pray for the world, but rather only those who the father gave him. He also states that no one can come to the son unless the father draws them. When you take all these sort of statements in tandem; the picture becomes clear. However, yes there is the problem of the verses you elude to (like 1 Tim. 2:3-4). The question is which direction is easier to harmonize; and what makes more sense?

Augustine & Calvin would both say we do not choose god, but rather god chooses us. God does not choose us because he passively looked down the tunnel of time & saw us doing the right thing. As humans, according to scripture, we’re incapable of doing the right thing without divine grace (therefore no amount of meritorious conduct on our part can earn our way into heaven or make us righteous in god’s eyes). God’s choices are made independent of our choices, actions, desires, efforts, and so on.

However, Augustine would say there’s some amount of foreknowledge involved (but he would also say it’s absurd to imagine foreknowledge preceding decree, since that would have the tail wagging the dog and create a logical paradox).

Humble in doubt why are you not using the original Greek or Hebrew when you are interpreting scripture? Just curious. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Continued:

God called all of us since He made all of us in His own image and likeness out of love for us, but not all of us answered His call and also remained faithful until we were approved for eternal life so He chose us according to this foreknowledge even before the earth was created. [Ephesians 1:4]

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Out of God’s mercy and love, He sent His Son to redeem all mankind. Mary was predestined by Divine decree to become the Mother of His Son. This was necessary in order for God’s Plan to come to fruition. However, notice that Mary had to agree to His Plan. She had free will to either accept His Plan or reject His Plan. His “knowing beforehand” by His foreknowledge that she was going to cooperate with His Plan was necessary, but He still did not prevent her from saying no to His Plan. (Of course, He knew that she would not say no, and He knew this fact even before the foundation of the world!) This is foreknowledge preceding decree.

I’m going to interject right here … because yes I agree; but here’s the caveat. God didn’t select Mary because he foresaw that Mary would obey. Rather, Mary obeyed because god chose her (in other words the bible never frames god’s actions or choices as dependent on man; it’s always the other way around – man depends on god for everything). The inference by scripture is that god does move his elect (although they still maintain free will, or at least the small amount of free will any of us can have apart from the influence of cause and effect).

There’s a mix at play, yet in the first instance it’s god’s choice (which is made apart from anything he foresees in his elect). Take Mary for instance … she and Joseph were very specially situated to parent the Messiah according to the bible story. Both from the lineage of David, yet Joseph could not physically father the Messiah (because of the curse of Jehoiakim).

Given this special situation it makes sense to think god wouldn’t have risked the chance that Mary might say no. Think about the logic here. If god is standing outside of time before creation, he formulates his plan, and actualizes all the actors he needs fitted into particular roles (i.e. the elect, saints, apostles, prophets, etc.). All of those individuals must say yes in order for god’s purpose to be accomplished. You might say god is so smart that he was able to put people he knew would say yes into those roles somehow. However, when you read verses like Jeremiah 1:5 it seems very clear that god forms the elect in the womb & before their birth (indeed even before creation) appoints them to both their temporal roles and their heavenly reward. So Mary was formed by god … but indeed she still had free will, as did Jeremiah, Jonah (who tried to rebel), etc.

 

[Worthy5]

Jesus said:John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."He doesn’t say that whoever believes in Aristotle, Augustine, Calvin or Aquinas, but whoever believes in Him. Maybe you’ve spent so much time reading the words of mere men you overlooked the simple words of the Son of Man.John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."Nope, He doesn’t mention Aristotle, Augustine, Calvin or Aquinas. Maybe in all your reading you missed this one simple, little point. Like many of the religious you stumbled over the simplicity of the gospel.

God hasn’t made salvation difficult, H-I-D, men have. Your problem is you’ve sought men, rather than the Son of Man.Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."Aristotle? Augustine? Calvin? Aquinas? No, none of those names. You found no salvation in them so now you’ve looked to Darwin. But there’s no salvation in that name either. God has promised life in one name, and one name only. Keep looking - although it’s right in front of you.

Moondweller, what justification do you have to say what you say? How do you know what you know? Also, why are you not using the original Greek or Hebrew when you are interpreting scripture? Just curious. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[Memaw]

Originally Posted by humble_in_doubt View Post
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8).

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (Romans 9:19-23).

humble in doubt,

If what you say is true then why in the world did God give us a free will in the first place. He could have just made us like the bugs or elephants, or even robots. The potter doesn’t give the clay a free will. God Bless, Memaw

 

[distracted]

Originally Posted by humble_in_doubt View Post
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8).

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory (Romans 9:19-23).

humble in doubt,

If what you say is true then why in the world did God give us a free will in the first place. He could have just made us like the bugs or elephants, or even robots. The potter doesn’t give the clay a free will. God Bless, Memaw

god can harden no one who does not agree to be hardened…

 

[distracted]

However, Augustine would say there’s some amount of foreknowledge involved (but he would also say it’s absurd to imagine foreknowledge preceding decree, since that would have the tail wagging the dog and create a logical paradox).*

you may be former Catholic but you are NOT now nothing…

you believe certain things… There are as many different religions as there are pepole in the world…

and if you really knew about the Catholic religion you would not leave it… Jesus establihsed only ONE Church and that is it…

 

[humble_in_doubt]

you may be former Catholic but you are NOT now nothing…

you believe certain things… There are as many different religions as there are pepole in the world…

and if you really knew about the Catholic religion you would not leave it… Jesus establihsed only ONE Church and that is it…

bla bla bla is not a cognizant argument

 

[humble_in_doubt]

humble in doubt,

If what you say is true then why in the world did God give us a free will in the first place. He could have just made us like the bugs or elephants, or even robots. The potter doesn’t give the clay a free will. God Bless, Memaw

I don’t think any god gave us or denied us free will – since I simply don’t believe the bible is true. While I might not deny the existence of (or possibility of) some sort of grand architect of the universe; I don’t believe in a god who answers prayers, whose present everywhere in time & space (simultaneously), or who involves himself (or itself) in human affairs.

I simply think the various religions in the world today amount to ancient mythology promulgated by its authors (human beings just like you and me) for a variety of reasons. This is why there’s tension in scripture between human moral agency (or free will) and divine sovereignty. It isn’t some divine mystery … rather the guys who invented this stuff just dropped the ball in this area (although I do give them credit for being smart men, since the “psychology” of the bible was very well designed).

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Humble in doubt why are you not using the original Greek or Hebrew when you are interpreting scripture? Just curious. Thanks and God Bless.

because I don’t know how to speak, read, or write ancient Greek (and it’s a lot of work to keep pulling from the Greek given I’m not a language expert). So I guess I’m too lazy (not a good explanation … but it’s the truth ).

Back in the day when I was into this stuff I did match up scripture against the Koine Greek (and Hebrew). In my experience the New American Standard Bible always does an excellent job of translation – but it’s a word for word translation (verses an “idea” translation text like the NIV, which is also pretty decent). The Catholic bible also does a good job with the text (but in my experience there’s really not much difference these days between the most commonly used bibles out there). At this point the Greek has been translated pretty well (although there’s still emerging theology out there, like the new perspective on Paul, that is trying to provide new insight). Frankly the new perspective on Paul IMO isn’t all that new; and for the most part I think it’s wrong (moreover, it’s not really based on any new information). Anyways …

 

[Worthy5]

I don’t think any god gave us or denied us free will – since I simply don’t believe the bible is true. While I might not deny the existence of (or possibility of) some sort of grand architect of the universe; I don’t believe in a god who answers prayers, whose present everywhere in time & space (simultaneously), or who involves himself (or itself) in human affairs.

I simply think the various religions in the world today amount to ancient mythology promulgated by its authors (human beings just like you and me) for a variety of reasons. This is why there’s tension in scripture between human moral agency (or free will) and divine sovereignty. It isn’t some divine mystery … rather the guys who invented this stuff just dropped the ball in this area (although I do give them credit for being smart men, since the “psychology” of the bible was very well designed).

humble in doubt, What independent criterion are you using to make those claims? Thanks and God Bless

 

[SHW]

…man depends on god for everything). The inference by scripture is that god does move his elect (although they still maintain free will, or at least the small amount of free will any of us can have apart from the influence of cause and effect).

There’s a mix at play, yet in the first instance it’s god’s choice (which is made apart from anything he foresees in his elect). …

You are correct. It is absolutely true that everything depends on God, including man. And I do believe that there is a hierarchy in heaven (I will most likely be at the bottom if I make it there) [1 Peter 4:18] and I am doing my best to please God and hope to continue to do so because I desire to inherit eternal life and even if I am at the bottom of the hierarchy, I will still rejoice forever to my absolute fullest capacity for joy. What a heavenly deal!!!

It was/is God’s sovereign will to give every angel and man/woman free will. So, God limits Himself in order to accommodate the free wills of both angels and men/women. However, His will is still done regardless of angel’s and man’s free wills. The actions of their free wills were known by His foreknowledge and they are included in His overall plan.

There would have been no need to foreordain Christ to save mankind if Adam was not ever going to sin. And God did not have to foreordain Christ to save mankind. He could have left mankind alienated from Himself for eternity. It was because of His mercy and love that He provided a way for us to be saved. And this “Way” is His only begotten Son’s death on the cross! He knew that we would need a Savior because of His foreknowledge!

1 Peter 1:20 “He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”

Foreknowledge. Not arbitrariness. He forces no person to be saved against his own will and He prevents no person from being saved against his own will.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Given this special situation it makes sense to think god wouldn’t have risked the chance that Mary might say no. Think about the logic here. If god is standing outside of time before creation, he formulates his plan, and actualizes all the actors he needs fitted into particular roles (i.e. the elect, saints, apostles, prophets, etc.). All of those individuals must say yes in order for god’s purpose to be accomplished. You might say god is so smart that he was able to put people he knew would say yes into those roles somehow. However, when you read verses like Jeremiah 1:5 it seems very clear that god forms the elect in the womb & before their birth (indeed even before creation) appoints them to both their temporal roles and their heavenly reward. So Mary was formed by god … but indeed she still had free will, as did Jeremiah, Jonah (who tried to rebel), etc.

There was absolutely no risk in choosing Mary to be “conceived without sin.” God knew what every action of her life would be in response to all the different scenarios which could possibly be presented to her before the foundation of the world, just as He knew before I was created, my response to every single action of my life under every circumstance which could possibly be presented to me. God is omniscient. He knows all things.

And yes, He can and does use this foreknowledge of my free will choices in response to differing situations, in order to further His own Will and Plan. He can and does present me with the scenario which will further His own purpose in the first place, but He also works His purpose with/through my own free will choices.

He never makes me do something against my own free will. However, He may make it difficult for me to not choose His will for me. Some persons may think this is manipulation on God’s part, but it is not. He gives us all much more mercy than we deserve. His will for us is always for our own good because He wants us to cooperate with His grace so that we can be saved.

We all deserved eternal damnation because of Adam’s sin. But, God in His mercy and love for His creation makes it possible for all of us to be saved. He gives more aid to some than to others, but His decisions are always Just because God is Love. And, He gives every single person enough mercy and enough grace in order to be saved. However, they must cooperate with His grace in order to actually be saved.

He desires that no man perish so He makes it possible for every man to be saved. Many are not saved, however, because they use their own free wills to thwart His desire for them (they do not cooperate with His plan of salvation/grace for them) and so they are condemned.

Romans 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.”

If He needs someone to save another person’s life in order to fulfill His purpose for the person whose life He wants saved, then He will send the one person who will get the job done for Him! And if this person, whom He sent to save the other person, dies while saving the other person, then the person who died also served God’s purpose/plan for this person, and he now enjoys eternal life. No one is forgotten or cheated.

John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.”

1 Peter 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

Yes, He chooses persons even before their conceptions in the wombs. This is a Semitic manner of speaking. Why did He choose them? Because He knew their characters before they were born. He knew if they would answer “yes” to His Plan or if they would not. He knew that Jonah and Paul would relent and eventually do His will if He made it uncomfortable enough for them. God foresaw “something” in Jonah and Paul that we do not get to see through Scripture.

God knows each person’s capacity for His spiritual gifts and He dispenses them accordingly. No one is cheated. Those to whom more is given, more is also expected in return.

Luke 12:48 “For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”

The person who only has the capacity for a small amount of spiritual gifts still gets his fill and is totally satisfied. The person who has the capacity for more spiritual gifts also receives his fill and is totally satisfied. Different amounts for each person, yet total and complete/perfect satisfaction for both. This is why it is called heaven.

We serve an awesome God who loves each one of us. He even knows how many hairs are on each person’s head. [Matthew 10:30]

 

[humble_in_doubt]

You are correct. It is absolutely true that everything depends on God, including man. And I do believe that there is a hierarchy in heaven (I will most likely be at the bottom if I make it there) [1 Peter 4:18] and I am doing my best to please God and hope to continue to do so because I desire to inherit eternal life and even if I am at the bottom of the hierarchy, I will still rejoice forever to my absolute fullest capacity for joy. What a heavenly deal!!!

It was/is God’s sovereign will to give every angel and man/woman free will. So, God limits Himself in order to accommodate the free wills of both angels and men/women. However, His will is still done regardless of angel’s and man’s free wills. The actions of their free wills were known by His foreknowledge and they are included in His overall plan.

There would have been no need to foreordain Christ to save mankind if Adam was not ever going to sin. And God did not have to foreordain Christ to save mankind. He could have left mankind alienated from Himself for eternity. It was because of His mercy and love that He provided a way for us to be saved. And this “Way” is His only begotten Son’s death on the cross! He knew that we would need a Savior because of His foreknowledge!

1 Peter 1:20 “He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you”

Foreknowledge. Not arbitrariness. He forces no person to be saved against his own will and He prevents no person from being saved against his own will.

to be continued…

well the problem is both the concepts of foreknowledge and a decree that was not at all dependent on our choices are introduced in scripture. There is obvious tension between those two concepts; so what do you do with it? If you say god’s choices were determined by foreseen faith then logically god’s choices were dependent on man’s choices. There’s no way around this. So I think Augustine did the best job of harmonizing this tension (and btw it’s perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to adopt an Augustinian view of predestination and grace, since after all he’s one of the preeminent saints in the CC).

Let me try and present an illustration. Let’s say before the beginning of time god said I will elect a guy named SHW. He knits you together in the womb, puts his spirit in you, and arranges the events in your life so you will only choose one thing. He knows through his prescience (foreknowledge) what situations you will face in life. Since he formed you in the womb you have a certain predisposition. However, it is possible that you could choose the wrong thing (and you retain the capacity to choose faithlessness); yet god ensures that bad potential never actualizes by ensuring you never face more than he designed you to handle. Even if you sin for some reason (and the bible says sometimes god allows bad things to happen to serve the greater good) it’s only because god allowed it. It’s not that he tempted you, he uses secondary agents (like Satan, as we see in Job) for that sort of stuff. Moreover, it’s not even that god ever forces you to do anything against your will. He created you, and designed you in a way that your predisposition will be towards god. Look at Jonah, god built him with a predisposition towards faith, yet Jonah still resisted the order to preach in Nineveh. God allowed this (indeed god foreknew that under the right circumstances Jonah would resist this order & arranged the circumstances so Jonah did disobey this order). God did this because he wanted the Jonah story to prefigure Christ (i.e. three days in the belly of a fish, or in an abyss, only to emerge and preach salvation to the gentile city of Nineveh … sound familiar?).

Now try to wrap your mind around the idea that foreknowledge preceded decree. When you think about it hard enough you’ll see how absurd that idea really is. According to the bible god’s plan was the beginning of everything. At no time can you say that foreknowledge preceded decree – because that has god doing things solely because he knows he’s going to do them (and would make him a slave to his own knowledge). So there has to be a logical order … and it must be that god’s decree came before everything else.

So yes foreknowledge is at play, yet the decision to predestine you was never in your hands. God did it before you were born. He didn’t do it because he saw what a great guy you would be independent of his interference in your life. He did it for his own reasons (that are never explained in scripture … beyond the simple idea that it’s in accordance with his good pleasure).

 

[Memaw]

I don’t think any god gave us or denied us free will – since I simply don’t believe the bible is true. While I might not deny the existence of (or possibility of) some sort of grand architect of the universe; I don’t believe in a god who answers prayers, whose present everywhere in time & space (simultaneously), or who involves himself (or itself) in human affairs.

I simply think the various religions in the world today amount to ancient mythology promulgated by its authors (human beings just like you and me) for a variety of reasons. This is why there’s tension in scripture between human moral agency (or free will) and divine sovereignty. It isn’t some divine mystery … rather the guys who invented this stuff just dropped the ball in this area (although I do give them credit for being smart men, since the “psychology” of the bible was very well designed).

If you really believe the way you say you do, then you have my deepest sympathy. You are a man without a reason for hope. The moment you leave ‘this ole world’, you are going to be in for one BIG shock. I’d love to see the look on your face at that moment. Not really, I don’t want to be anywhere around. Its hard to believe you were once a Catholic and walked away with nothing more than this. You have my sincerest prayers for your re-conversion. I pray the Blessed Mother will be able to bring you back home to her SON. God Bless, Memaw

 

[humble_in_doubt]

humble in doubt, What independent criterion are you using to make those claims? Thanks and God Bless

I do obviously have many good reasons, though I don’t want to derail this thread by debating the merits of theism (or non-theism). If you’re interested I posted a couple objections in another post here on CAF (on the topic of atheism). Link here.

 

[SHW]

If you say god’s choices were determined by foreseen faith then logically god’s choices were dependent on man’s choices. There’s no way around this. …btw it’s perfectly acceptable for a Catholic to adopt an Augustinian view of predestination and grace, since after all he’s one of the preeminent saints in the CC).

We don’t know exactly how God “works” His will/plan, but we do know that God’s plans do not force a person to be saved against his own free will and we do know that God does not prevent a person from being saved against his own free will. How God actually manages this is up to speculation and I find nothing objectionable about Augustine’s theory. He was a brilliant man, much smarter than I will ever be.

We do know that there is no such thing as double predestination! God absolutely did not create some men with the express intent to destroy them against their own wills. A God who is Love cannot do this because it would be against His nature. God does not act contrary to His own nature.

Let me try and present an illustration. Let’s say before the beginning of time god said I will elect a guy named SHW. He knits you together in the womb, puts his spirit in you, and arranges the events in your life so you will only choose one thing. …Look at Jonah, god built him with a predisposition towards faith, yet Jonah still resisted the order to preach in Nineveh…God did this because he wanted the Jonah story to prefigure Christ (i.e. three days in the belly of a fish, or in an abyss, only to emerge and preach salvation to the gentile city of Nineveh … sound familiar?).

We do not **know **the mind of God. Three is an important number in Scripture and we see it over and over again. I personally do not think that God only allows one path for each person. As long as we are able to fulfill His purpose for us, He allows us freedom in making other choices which are not dependent on the fulfillment of His Plan. He does not want slaves. He wants us to choose Him out of love for Him just as He chose to create us because He wanted to share heaven with us. [Gen 1:26, 2 Tim 1:9] And, I happen to believe that God’s “election” of persons is according to His foreknowledge just as it says in Scripture.

1 Pet 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

2 Pet. 1:10 “Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;”

God already knows who His elect are, and He knows this according to His foreknowledge, and He predestined His “elect” before time began, but we can’t know our own status until we die, because our free will actions on earth until death determine whether we are truly His elect, rather than our own wishful or presumptuous “thinking.”

And, it is true that God never allows us to be tempted beyond our strength to resist.

1 Cor 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

No such thing as double predestination! The fact that some persons will choose, by using their own free wills, to reject God is not God’s fault. He created us to have fellowship with Him for eternity just as He created the angels for the same purpose; yet one-third of the angels rebelled against Him and were cast down from heaven as a result of their rebellion. [Rev 12:3-5]

Now try to wrap your mind around the idea that foreknowledge preceded decree. When you think about it hard enough you’ll see how absurd that idea really is. According to the bible god’s plan was the beginning of everything. At no time can you say that foreknowledge preceded decree – because that has god doing things solely because he knows he’s going to do them (and would make him a slave to his own knowledge). So there has to be a logical order … and it must be that god’s decree came before everything else.

God is perfection. All of His actions are perfect. He cannot make Himself into a slave. This would be contrary to His own nature and God cannot do anything contrary to His own nature. This is why He cannot tempt man to sin. God can only do good, not evil. [Jn 3:17-19] Man condemns himself by his own actions. [Matt 12:37] Jesus judges us according to our own deeds/works on Judgment Day. [Jn 5:28-30] God’s decree to create men also set the “other” things in motion such as planning for Jesus’ birth and death as the means of salvation for them.

So yes foreknowledge is at play, yet the decision to predestine you was never in your hands. God did it before you were born. He didn’t do it because he saw what a great guy you would be independent of his interference in your life. He did it for his own reasons (that are never explained in scripture … beyond the simple idea that it’s in accordance with his good pleasure).

God called me because He loved me. His calling me had nothing to do with anything that I did or did not do. He called me because He desires all men (and women ) to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and He sent Jesus as a ransom for all men and women. His decision to do this makes no difference on whether I eventually am saved or not. He called me because of who He is, not because of who I am.

I agree that the decision to predestine me was never in my own hands. However, God set up His own criteria to decide whether I am predestined, and He therefore holds true to His own criteria.

 

[Zundrah]

Well, if you feel it’s the right parish for you, then it probably is. I just didn’t want you to assume that every single parish is exactly like that.

Peter J, come now, you don’t really think that one bad church is going to make me assume that all Catholics are mean now do you?
I will never judge a church by one persons actions! If our Lord did that then surely we would all be dammed!
Thank you for your help but don’t worry, I am not put off by a little trouble!

:bounce:God BLESS you:bounce:

 

[Worthy5]

We don’t know exactly how God “works” His will/plan, but we do know that God’s plans do not force a person to be saved against his own free will and we do know that God does not prevent a person from being saved against his own free will. How God actually manages this is up to speculation and I find nothing objectionable about Augustine’s theory. He was a brilliant man, much smarter than I will ever be.

We do know that there is no such thing as double predestination! God absolutely did not create some men with the express intent to destroy them against their own wills. A God who is Love cannot do this because it would be against His nature. God does not act contrary to His own nature.

We do not know the mind of God. Three is an important number in Scripture and we see it over and over again. I personally do not think that God only allows one path for each person. As long as we are able to fulfill His purpose for us, He allows us freedom in making other choices which are not dependent on the fulfillment of His Plan. He does not want slaves. He wants us to choose Him out of love for Him just as He chose to create us because He wanted to share heaven with us. [Gen 1:26, 2 Tim 1:9] And, I happen to believe that God’s “election” of persons is according to His foreknowledge just as it says in Scripture.

1 Pet 1:2 “elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”

2 Pet. 1:10 “Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;”

God already knows who His elect are, and He knows this according to His foreknowledge, and He predestined His “elect” before time began, but we can’t know our own status until we die, because our free will actions on earth until death determine whether we are truly His elect, rather than our own wishful or presumptuous “thinking.”

And, it is true that God never allows us to be tempted beyond our strength to resist.

1 Cor 10:13 “No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.”

No such thing as double predestination! The fact that some persons will choose, by using their own free wills, to reject God is not God’s fault. He created us to have fellowship with Him for eternity just as He created the angels for the same purpose; yet one-third of the angels rebelled against Him and were cast down from heaven as a result of their rebellion. [Rev 12:3-5]

God is perfection. All of His actions are perfect. He cannot make Himself into a slave. This would be contrary to His own nature and God cannot do anything contrary to His own nature. This is why He cannot tempt man to sin. God can only do good, not evil. [Jn 3:17-19] Man condemns himself by his own actions. [Matt 12:37] Jesus judges us according to our own deeds/works on Judgment Day. [Jn 5:28-30] God’s decree to create men also set the “other” things in motion such as planning for Jesus’ birth and death as the means of salvation for them.

God called me because He loved me. His calling me had nothing to do with anything that I did or did not do. He called me because He desires all men (and women ) to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and He sent Jesus as a ransom for all men and women. His decision to do this makes no difference on whether I eventually am saved or not. He called me because of who He is, not because of who I am.

I agree that the decision to predestine me was never in my own hands. However, God set up His own criteria to decide whether I am predestined, and He therefore holds true to His own criteria.

SHW you state " We do know that there is no such thing as double predestination! God absolutely did not create some men with the express intent to destroy them against their own wills. A God who is Love cannot do this because it would be against His nature. God does not act contrary to His own nature." Then you state " We do not **know the mind of God. "

Now which is it. For someone who says we cannot know the mind of God how do you reach the other conclusion. Just curious Thanks**