Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[1beleevr]

worthy5: It would see that no one can sufficiently answer the post, you continue to use, as your reply; at least to your satisfaction! Translation, interpretation, whether or not the Holy Spirit talks to and guides each and every Christian; who knows? God knows, and Jesus told US that He would send an Advocate to help us; to explain everything to us, in Spirit and in Truth! A few years ago, I would not have been able to see that 2Samuel 14:14, was a reference to Jesus Christ; but with the Spirit’s help, it was revealed to me:thumbsup:

 

[PRmerger]

God knows, and Jesus told US that He would send an Advocate to help us; to explain everything to us, in Spirit and in Truth!

(From an excellent post by Bill Pick originally posted here)
So are you saying the Holy Spirit guides all these Christian to the truth:

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?
2. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?
3. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?
4. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?
5. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, ‘once saved always saved’, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?
6. How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?
7. How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?

 

[Rhiloraye]

TOUCHE!!! EmeraldCoast…I feel you on that one…I can’t say I have been there but I know from other topics from other boards or other issues in life I can say that I know what you mean and I even experienced it in my 12 yes count them 12 years of Catholic school of which I regret nothing it taught me so much but I digress so much so…Peace back and this is from a very, very liberal outspoken old-world pagan raised Catholic do what you need to but never forget the higher-power!

Blessed Be!
Rhi

 

[Memaw]

TOUCHE!!! EmeraldCoast…I feel you on that one…I can’t say I have been there but I know from other topics from other boards or other issues in life I can say that I know what you mean and I even experienced it in my 12 yes count them 12 years of Catholic school of which I regret nothing it taught me so much but I digress so much so…Peace back and this is from a very, very liberal outspoken old-world pagan raised Catholic do what you need to but never forget the higher-power!

Blessed Be!
Rhi

I am glad your just a trial member cuz people like you leave a sad feeling in us faithful Catholic’s hearts. You had it and you blew it. To bad, to sad. Its never to late to come back!!! God Bless, Memaw

 

[moondweller]

I am sorry you feel that way. I was hoping you could provide some insight. Thanks again

No you weren’t!

 

[SteveGC]

spiritoftruth:Yes, my Christian brother; those of us in externally focused churches, are taking the Love of God to the streets of Amerrica!

As opposed to the internally focused Catholic Church, 1b? Your sarcasm and disdain for The Church, veiled as ecumenical charity and love, is transparent. I’m trying to figure out why you feel so compelled to prove your worth to Catholics, as evidenced by all the public postings of your Christian resume. We’re all very impressed by all you do. My goodness, might there be no new decisions for Christ out there if it weren’t for the “externally focused” protestant branch of Christianity? Thanks for making up for the shortcomings of The Church.

Jesus told US that He would send an Advocate to help us; to explain everything to us, in Spirit and in Truth!

Please provide Scripture that reveals Jesus told US all this about the Spirit, as opposed to specifically the Apostles. If the Apostles represents all of humanity, wherein all things addressed to them is intrinsically addressed to all, please show me where that representation is explained in Scripture.

A few years ago, I would not have been able to see that 2Samuel 14:14, was a reference to Jesus Christ; but with the Spirit’s help, it was revealed to me:thumbsup:

So you see Jesus foreshadowed in a verse from 2 Samuel. And? This is proof that the Spirit guides you into all understanding? Fantastic.

 

[SHW]

TOUCHE!!! EmeraldCoast…Peace back and this is from a very, very liberal outspoken old-world pagan raised Catholic do what you need to but never forget the higher-power!

Blessed Be!
Rhi

Why are you speaking of a higher power?

 

[moondweller]

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans the Eucharist is the true presence of Christ, and then tell the Baptists it is only a symbol?

Because in context the theopneustos Scriptures reveal that Christ was speaking figuratively since He was right there speaking to them clothed in the body that was yet to sacrificed.

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Methodists it is alright to have female ministers, and then tell the Baptists it is unbiblical?

Because in respect to “elders” (presbuteros/episkopos) the theopneustos Scriptures mention only males in that ecclesiastic office.

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Seventh Day Adventists that Saturday is the day of worship, and then tell the Presbyterians the day of worship is Sunday and not Saturday?

Because the theopneustos Scriptures specifies no “day of worship” to be set aside for the church Christ is presently building; and the seventh day was “sabbath day,” a day of rest (cessation of labor), not a day of worship, according to the Law of Moses. And the church is not under the Law of Moses with its “letters engraved on stones.”

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Lutherans that the Blessed Virgin Mary was and remains always virgin, and then tell the Baptists she had other children?

Because the theopneustos Scriptures mention her other sons by name, and they mention she had daughters as well (Mk. 6:3); and that Joseph refrained from having sexual relations with her until after the birth of Jesus (Matt. 1:25).

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell the Baptists, ‘once saved always saved’, and then tell the Church of Christ that Sola Fides is unscriptural?

Because the theopneustos Scriptures reveal that the work of salvation was finished at the cross of Christ and His finished, sacrificial work is applied to the believer, in full, at the moment belief in Him. And they record the words of Jesus Himself who said of the true believer that he “has” eternal life, and that he does not come into judgment but “has” passed out of death into life (Jn. 5:24).

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell Episcopalians to baptize infants and then tell Pentecostals infant baptism is invalid?

Because nowhere in the theopneustos Scriptures are infants ever recorded as being baptized - only those who had personally believed in Christ. First belief, then ritual baptism.

1. How can the Holy Spirit tell Mormons that the Holy Trinity is three separate persons, and then tell Methodists the Trinity is three persons in one GOD?

Because the theopneustos Scriptures reveal the Father as God; the Son as God; and the Holy Spirit as God. Three Persons, one God.

IOW, everything what we need to know pertaining to God and man’s salvation is right there recorded in the Scriptures which the Holy Spirit Himself inspired.

 

[SteveGC]

Because in context the theopneustos Scriptures reveal that Christ was speaking figuratively since He was right there speaking to them clothed in the body that was yet to sacrificed.Because in respect to “elders” (presbuteros/episkopos) the theopneustos Scriptures mention only males in that ecclesiastic office.Because the theopneustos Scriptures specifies no “day of worship” to be set aside for the church Christ is presently building; and the seventh day was “sabbath day,” a day of rest (cessation of labor), not a day of worship, according to the Law of Moses. And the church is not under the Law of Moses with its “letters engraved on stones.” Because the theopneustos Scriptures mention her other sons by name, and they mention she had daughters as well (Mk. 6:3); and that Joseph refrained from having sexual relations with her until after the birth of Jesus (Matt. 1:25).Because the theopneustos Scriptures reveal that the work of salvation was finished at the cross of Christ and His finished, sacrificial work is applied to the believer, in full, at the moment belief in Him. And they record the words of Jesus Himself who said of the true believer that he “has” eternal life, and that he does not come into judgment but “has” passed out of death into life (Jn. 5:24).Because nowhere in the theopneustos Scriptures are infants ever recorded as being baptized - only those who had personally believed in Christ. First belief, then ritual baptism.Because the theopneustos Scriptures reveal the Father as God; the Son as God; and the Holy Spirit as God. Three Persons, one God.

IOW, everything what we need to know pertaining to God and man’s salvation is right there recorded in the Scriptures which the Holy Spirit Himself inspired.

Wow. Thanks for proving PR’s point for us, md. He didn’t ask what the actual doctrine of those points actually WAS (hint: Catholics know what the answers are). He asked, how is it that the Spirit tells these two different protestant groups two different things? Your last sentence there sums up the problem with sola scriptura quite nicely.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

You are free to believe what you wish to believe.

I do not know if what you think Augustine taught about predestination is what he actually did teach, but I will not be researching his teaching in order to find out since it does not matter in order to make my own point.

Augustine was free to express his opinion just as his Catholic contemporaries were free to express their opinions about predestination since the Church had not made any formal pronouncements about it.

However, the Church has since ruled that double predestination cannot be believed by Catholics.

Fr. Ray Ryland writing in Catholic Answers magazine explains the Catholic teaching about Predestination:
"The key to the doctrine of predestination is given in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore He establishes His eternal plan of ‘predestination,’ He includes in it each person’s free response to His grace” (No. 600).

In other words, what God foresees and wills takes into account how we use our freedom in responding to Him or in rejecting Him. God’s foreknowledge in no way detracts from our freedom.

Sacred Scripture assures us that “God our Savior … wills all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tm 2:3-4). Moreover, Christ Jesus “gave himself as ransom for all” (1 Tm 2:5).

The Church teaches that God “predestines” us both to good works and to eternal happiness in heaven. That is His plan for our lives. We are free to reject Him, but even our rejection itself is somehow a part of God’s overall plan.

God always holds out the grace of conversion to sinners, even as He foresees who will reject that grace and be forever lost. The Church also teaches that apart from special revelation no one can know with absolute certainty whether he or she belongs among the elect in heaven.

You should ponder Romans 8:28-30. It is Scripture’s fullest statement of the working of predestination in the lives of the elect. “Elect” refers to those persons who will respond to God’s infinite grace. And remember: The freedom of the elect will always be unimpaired."

It is not necessary to destroy “some” in order to save “others/many.” This is incorrect thinking. God is almighty/omnipotent. The only things that God cannot do are things that are against His Divine Nature. In other words, God cannot do evil because He is all good.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. I do believe the Church’s teaching on predestination.

After all, Jesus founded His own one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church and He promised to lead it into all truth by the power of the Holy Spirit and He promised to be with His Church always until He returns. The Holy Spirit prevents His Church from teaching error in matters of faith and morals and Scripture interpretation in its official pronouncements. He promised that the gates of Hades would never prevail against His Church. If His Church ever teaches error, then the gates of Hades will have prevailed. Jesus cannot lie so this means that His Church cannot ever teach error.

Yes I’m aware that my view of how scripture presents predestination and grace is not in line with contemporary Catholic soteriology. I simply think the CC has been all over the place on this issue throughout history (just look at its pronouncement at the Council of Carthage where they affirmed Augustine’s theology, and denounced Pelagianism as a heresy). So frankly I don’t give much credence to Catholic theology (IMO a simple reading of the bible “cover to cover” debunks its view).

I guess as the maxim goes, if you disagree with the CC today … give it ten years & they’ll change their mind (their theology seems to shift direction like the wind). They’re almost as bad as the protestants

 

[PRmerger]

IOW, everything what we need to know pertaining to God and man’s salvation is right there recorded in the Scriptures which the Holy Spirit Himself inspired.

The 40,000 denominations that have arisen–each using the same Scripture verses and coming up with contrary doctrines–is testament to the error of your statement above.

I’m sorry you typed so much in an attempt to give us your version of an encyclical, providing us with your fallible, non-authoritative doctrines.

You still did not respond: how could the Holy Spirit inspire contraditory doctrines? Your man-made, fallible, non-authoritative tradition says, "I got my Bible. I got the Holy Spirit. Don’t need nothin’ else!" If there weren’t 40,000 different denominations, then I might accept your tradition.

However, even the existence of 3 different denominations should give you reason to doubt Sola Scriptura.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

And what are you going to do with you after you die??? Just curious, God Bless, Memaw

same as you … nothing but six feet deep (and no matter how vivid one fantasizes – it won’t help; beyond the nominal false comfort it provides).

 

[Worthy5]

Yes I’m aware that my view of how scripture presents predestination and grace is not in line with contemporary Catholic soteriology. I simply think the CC has been all over the place on this issue throughout history (just look at its pronouncement at the Council of Carthage where they affirmed Augustine’s theology, and denounced Pelagianism as a heresy). So frankly I don’t give much credence to Catholic theology (IMO a simple reading of the bible “cover to cover” debunks its view).

I guess as the maxim goes, if you disagree with the CC today … give it ten years & they’ll change their mind (their theology seems to shift direction like the wind). They’re almost as bad as the protestants

So why cannot the Church refine its doctrine over time as it better understands the deposit of faith. What authority do you have to say how the Church should or should not develop its doctrine? Your secular viewpoint and critique of an institution that defines itself as a mystery revealing a divine revelation seems misplaced. You might just have the wrong lens on.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

So why cannot the Church refine its doctrine over time as it better understands the deposit of faith. What authority do you have to say how the Church should or should not develop its doctrine. Your secular viewpoint and critique of an institution that defines itself as a mystery revealing a divine revelation seems misplaced. You might just have the wrong lens on.

yes … the logic lens

 

[PRmerger]

same as you … nothing but six feet deep (and no matter how vivid one fantasizes – it won’t help beyond the nominal false comfort it provides).

Just curious, humble, how certain are you about this? You seem like a thoughtful, intelligent man who’s weighed all the philosophies and theologies and soteriologies and come up with what you think is the most persuasive position.

But you don’t have even a little doubt in the back of your mind that you could be wrong? There’s not a whisper in your spirit, during the quiet moments of your life, that calls to you and tells you there could be something more?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Just curious, humble, how certain are you about this? You seem like a thoughtful, intelligent man who’s weighed all the philosophies and theologies and soteriologies and come up with what you think is the most persuasive position.

But you don’t have even a little doubt in the back of your mind that you could be wrong? There’s not a whisper in your spirit, during the quiet moments of your life, that calls to you and tells you there could be something more?

let’s qualify “something more.” I am 100% sure the bible is mythology with no basis in fact (beyond perhaps some bits of historical accuracy, which of course doesn’t do anything to support its supernatural claims).

However, might there be something more in this universe, something much more powerful than mankind … no one can definitely answer that question either way. I just know Christianity (and theism in general) is not true (and yes with absolute confidence).

 

[PRmerger]

no

I think you’re being disingenuous, humble. There’s simply no way a human being could be so sure about something so unknown.

I think you have doubts, and those doubts trouble you.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I think you’re being disingenuous, humble. There’s simply no way a human being could be so sure about something so unknown.

I think you have doubts, and those doubts trouble you.

I actually edited my response (see above). But no nothing troubles me. This is just the programmed Christian response to non-theists, perhaps even a defensive posture (but of course it has no basis in empirical fact). You might be interested to know the most secular nations in the world are rated the “happiest”!

 

[PRmerger]

However, might there be something more in this universe, something much more powerful than mankind … no one can definitely answer that question either way. I just know Christianity (and theism in general) is not true (and yes with absolute confidence).

Now, that, I believe you.

Thus, you ought to say, when someone asks what you’re going to do after you die, “I simply don’t know.” That would give you more credibility.

Also, this edit that you did (I must have caught your impulsive “NO” responsive before you had time to edit) proves that your initial answer was disingenuous. You do indeed have doubts.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Now, that, I believe you.

Thus, you ought to say, when someone asks what you’re going to do after you die, “I simply don’t know.” That would give you more credibility.

Also, this edit that you did (I must have caught your impulsive “NO” responsive before you had time to edit) proves that your initial answer was disingenuous. You do indeed have doubts.

it only proves that my initial response is disingenuous if you don’t consider the other reasons why I might have had an impulse to answer no. The response is a flat NO when it comes to your bible (along with religiosity in general & contemporary theism of any brand). So that’s what I had in mind.

When I re-read your question I realized my answer needs qualification (so I edited). Believe me or not … I’m not gonna lose any sleep over it