Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

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yes … the logic lens 🙂
That is a cute remark but you have not answered the question. What authority do you have to properly discern the nature of the reality of the Church? One cannot prove the law of gravity but we like it because it works as an explanation. Attacking the discipline of metaphysics has been tried my friend, and even successfully demonstrated by people a lot smarter than you, but what is left does not explain reality. What you think works for you comes up short for most others. You will have to do alot better than the above.
 
I But no nothing troubles me.
Well, that’s fine. But I wasn’t really asking if anything troubled you. I was asking how certain you were that when you die, *POOF you’re gone!*. There isn’t a little voice that says, “Umm…maybe I’m wrong…”?? I think there is, and I’m happy for it, because it’s going to lead you back Home!
You might be interested to know the most secular nations in the world are rated the “happiest”!
How was this determined? Did they get statistics on suicide attempts? Anti-depressants prescribed per capita? What was their criteria for determining happiness?
 
You might be interested to know the most secular nations in the world are rated the “happiest”!
You think that surprises us? I wonder who’s providing this “rating” and who’s defining “happy”. Since the secular world is the one most interested in the acquisition of the maximum amount of self-gratifying pleasure one can acquire, and calling that “happy”, of course secular nations are the “happiest”. You might be interested to know that the most Christian of nations in the world are rated the most “joyful”. Think there might be a difference between “happiness” and “joy”? You better believe it. One’s quite temporary, the other everlasting. But hey, that’s just my “programmed response”.
 
IYou might be interested to know the most secular nations in the world are rated the “happiest”!
That’s interesting, but also doubtful.

The Council for Secular Humanism had this on their website:
“A country’s suicide rate stands out as the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization’s report on international male suicide rates (who.int/en/), the nations with the **lowest rates of suicide **were all highly religious, characterized by extremely high levels of theism (usually of the Muslim and Catholic varieties). Of the ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, five were distinctly **irreligious **nations ranked among the top twenty-five nations listed earlier.” (bold mine.) Source here
 
Yes I’m aware that my view of how scripture presents predestination and grace is not in line with contemporary Catholic soteriology.
So, then why are you here on a Catholic Forum? We have 2000 years of constant teaching about faith and morals. These core beliefs have never changed. Abortion was wrong 2000 years ago in the Catholic Church and she still teaches this. Contraception was wrong 2000 years ago in the Catholic Church and she still teaches this.

We simply do not know some things since God has not revealed them fully yet. Until and unless He does, then we can theorize about them as much as we desire as long as our theories do not contradict officially taught Church doctrines.

There must be some atheist forums out there in cyberspace which will welcome your “evolving” views especially since you have been “saved” from the horrors of “mind-controlling” Catholicism. 😉 😃 😛

If I am right, then I go to heaven when I die. If I am wrong, then I am just “six feet deep” as you so delicately put it. 😃

However, if you are wrong, then you get to spend eternity in hell. [2 Thessalonians 1:6-9]

I’ll stick with my own plan. I will continue to believe in God and obey His gospel. 👍
 
That’s interesting, but also doubtful.

The Council for Secular Humanism had this on their website:
“A country’s suicide rate stands out as the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization’s report on international male suicide rates (who.int/en/), the nations with the **lowest rates of suicide **were all highly religious, characterized by extremely high levels of theism (usually of the Muslim and Catholic varieties). Of the ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, five were distinctly **irreligious **nations ranked among the top twenty-five nations listed earlier.” (bold mine.) Source here
It’s a funny thing you mention this, because I brought this up in a similar argument with him. The source however was different, I took my info from The Journal of American Psychiatry.
 
Why would there need be? A mature, spiritual man can easily decipher between the two.No, it’s a matter of handling accurately (or, rightly dividing) the (inerrant) word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15).
If only this were true! However, the contrary is the case. Intelligent, prayerful, and well meaning men constantly come to opposite conclusions. Basically what you are saying here is that you are a mature and spiritual man, and anyone who does not understand the Scriptures in the same way you do is spiritually immature, or deceived, or in some other way deficient. You have made yourself the standard.

And, in fact, there are not scriptures that identify which issues are “essential” and which are not.
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 But that's not possible with a works based religion which sees *everything* written as a *condition* to be met for a future salvation;
I agree, and fortunately this does not describe Catholicism. However, I think you believe it does. This demonstrates that all of your time here has not given you an appreciable improvement in understanding what the Church teaches. It is amazing that you can be here all this time, and still not understand that for the believer, it is no longer oneself that lives, but Christ, who lives in us. The life we now live, we live to God. The works we do are those that have been prepared from the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them. They are based on grace, through faith.
thereby demonstrating its inability to comprehend what the theopneustos Scriptures have revealed concerning the doctrine of salvation based on personal faith in the Person and finished, expiatory, propitiatory work of the Savior. IOW, if it can’t comprehend Christ Himself as “Savior,” it certainly can’t decipher between those Biblical passages that form the doctrine of salvation and those that are addressed directly to “the saved.”
Well, this is the root of the error, moon. The Scriptures adre not the source of the doctrine of salvation. Jesus is the Source of the doctrine, and He committed it to the Apostles, and they to the Church. The Church then produced the NT, which reflects what she believes and teaches. That is why there are no contradictions between what is in scripture, and what the Catholic Church teaches. It appears that there are discrepancies to you because you have been separated from the Apostolic Teaching.
Hence, for any works based religions the Scriptures are of little value, so instead they lean more heavily on traditions of men (1 Cor. 2:14).
I suppose this may be true. Personally, I don’t know of any religions that are like this, but I will take your word for it. I can appreciate that they would have little need for the Scriptures, since ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. Such a religion would not be a Christian religion, since Christians are, by definition, saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man boast. 😉
I’ll certainly admit Protestantism has its share of them. Some being carryovers from Catholicism which itself is heavily burdened down by them. So much so that we’ve seen on this thread that even Catholics themselves are confused by them - even after the last two RC councils.
Indeed there are many poorly catechized Catholics, sadly. However, Catholicism is not “heavily burndened down” by any “works based salvation traditions”. These are not part of the teaching of Catholicism. It is a common misunderstanding, though, as you have demonstrated.
 
I was a protestant just a few weeks ago!
But I was never told of all these random things.:whacky:…just confuses everyone (or at least it confuses me).
This is one of the problems. These concepts are taught sometimes very insidiously and unconsciously absorbed and promulgated. I agree with you, such teachings are confusing to everyone. This is why Jesus appointed a teaching authority, so that people would not have to become confused like this.
 
Wow. Thanks for proving PR’s point for us, md. He didn’t ask what the actual doctrine of those points actually WAS (hint: Catholics know what the answers are). He asked, how is it that the Spirit tells these two different protestant groups two different things? Your last sentence there sums up the problem with sola scriptura quite nicely.
Not surprisingly the whole point flew over your head, Steve. Not even so much as a breeze felt on the forehead.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t tell anyone anything differently than what He’s already revealed to us in the Scriptures. Being God He never contradicts Himself. Rather than an exegetical study of the Scriptures, Catholics are just as guilty as some Protestants by imposing their own preconceived ideas into their interpretation God’s written Word.

The theopneustos Scriptures are Divine revelation to be studied and taught, not a tool to be used by religious leaders in order to manipulate the masses. Distorting God’s Word goes all the way back to the Garden.
 
A lot of repetition, PR. You’ve yet to prove your assertion.
On the contrary, I think the evidence makes it clear that the assertion is absolutely proven. Each of these denominations have persons who claim to be, just as you have done, spiritually mature, and “rightly dividing the word of Truth”. Yet, each of them has subtle but important doctrinal differences. None of them can all agree on what is “essential” and what is “non-essential”. That is why there are so many groups.
 
prmerger: Bill Pick? Are you sure it was the Holy Spirit that told all those people those things? And who told the catholic church that Mary was a perpetual virgin? Who told them that they must confess to a priest? Who told them that the pope was the vicar of Christ? And wasn’t it Peter who told the crowd in Acts 2:38, that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, if they repented, turned to God for forgiveness of their sins, and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ? Bada bing, bada boom!👍
 
humble in doubt: While I have not read all of your posts, the ones I have read are intriguing! Your religion is listed as former catholic, now NOTHING. I am always curious, when anyone leaves any church or religion. So do tell, what was your #1 reason for leaving the catholic religion? I can tell you that the reason I left the Baptist church I was attending in 2004, was because of legalism. And the pastor felt that it was okay to wax political from the pulpit:confused: Also, he openly criticized other religions. I found out later, that he was a former catholic:D
 
W-O-W, Steve GC: You said a mouthful, without saying a thing:D And speaking of sarcasm, your post is dripping with it! And my “disdain”, as you call it, for the catholic church, is matched only by your(catholics)disdain for your noncatholic Christian brothers and sisters! And unless you put out love, like Christ did, don’t even go there! When spiritoftruth said that "evangelization was alive and well, it touched a spot, deep in my soul, as that is where my heart has been drawn, and I thought, "Whoo, hoo, let’s take God’s love to the streets! And why did you believe that I was saying that the catholic church was internally focused; is your skin that thin, that you jump on every statement as being potentially anti-catholic? But anyway,I do not, repeat do not hate the catholic church, I just disagree with it! And, as far as understanding that 2Samuel14:14 is a reference to Jesus,I think I was able to recognize it, because I know that Jesus was with God in the beginning(John 1).
 
Not surprisingly the whole point flew over your head, Steve. Not even so much as a breeze felt on the forehead.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t tell anyone anything differently than what He’s already revealed to us in the Scriptures. Being God He never contradicts Himself. Rather than an exegetical study of the Scriptures, Catholics are just as guilty as some Protestants by imposing their own preconceived ideas into their interpretation God’s written Word.

The theopneustos Scriptures are Divine revelation to be studied and taught, not a tool to be used by religious leaders in order to manipulate the masses. Distorting God’s Word goes all the way back to the Garden.
You know, every so often I have to make an apology for indulging in an abundance of sarcasm. This is one of those times, and so I do apologize for my tone of late. Seems I’m occasionally influenced by the mood of the thread from time to time, and it’s been quite sarcastic in tone lately.

Anyway, md…we’re not saying that God contradicts Himself. We’re actually emphasizing that He cannot contradict Himself, and that fact is what proves that Bible as the sole authority, or sola scriptura, is a clear false doctrine, because it forces God (via the Spirit) to contradict Himself, an impossibility. It forces the impossible because what you end up with is multiple differing interpretations of the same exact passages in Scripture from individuals claiming Spirit-led revelation…which is the example PR was making to you. The Catholic Church is not guilty of this because The Church is the original standard from which everything diverged. She is the Christ-appointed authority, and in fact is the compiler and canonizer of Scripture.

Catholics don’t have “preconceived ideas”, they have authentic apostolic teaching…Jesus-conceived ideas.
 
W-O-W, Steve GC: You said a mouthful, without saying a thing:D And speaking of sarcasm, your post is dripping with it! And my “disdain”, as you call it, for the catholic church, is matched only by your(catholics)disdain for your noncatholic Christian brothers and sisters! And unless you put out love, like Christ did, don’t even go there! When spiritoftruth said that "evangelization was alive and well, it touched a spot, deep in my soul, as that is where my heart has been drawn, and I thought, "Whoo, hoo, let’s take God’s love to the streets! And why did you believe that I was saying that the catholic church was internally focused; is your skin that thin, that you jump on every statement as being potentially anti-catholic? But anyway,I do not, repeat do not hate the catholic church, I just disagree with it! And, as far as understanding that 2Samuel14:14 is a reference to Jesus,I think I was able to recognize it, because I know that Jesus was with God in the beginning(John 1).
Well then I stand corrected. My apologies for my tone, my accusation, and for misunderstanding what you’re all about.
 
The Holy Spirit doesn’t tell anyone anything differently than what He’s already revealed to us in the Scriptures.
Howdy Md, 👋

Please show the Scripture(s) that supports your assumption that all that is known about God is written in Scripture. My Bible states that if you hear/listen to His Church which means its hierarchy, (those leaders via apostolic succession) who rule over the other members of His Church, then you are hearing Him. [Luke 10:16, Hebrews 13:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, John 21:25] He also states that if you reject His Church, then you are in fact rejecting Him also since the two cannot be separated.

He commissioned His Church to go and make disciples of all nations through Baptism and also to teach them to observe (do/fulfill) all that He commanded, as this is a requirement for inheriting eternal life. There is no command to go out and write any books, except in the Book of Revelation (this “book” was to be sent to 7 church parishes/congregations in different cities).

We will not be changing our minds on any of this in order to accommodate our Protestant brothers’ and sisters’ erroneous doctrine of Sola Scriptura and their idea that the Holy Spirit gives to each of them the grace to personally interpret Scripture infallibly. (Who decides who is right when you disagree on things such as Infant Baptism, Sunday Worship, etc.?) I wonder why you keep trying to change our minds here on this Catholic forum by your many posts promoting OSAS, Sola Scriptura, and Faith Alone ??? :confused: Isn’t it wasted effort? I post responses in order to help show other Catholics how Scripture supports the beliefs of our own faith when interpreted correctly.
Being God He never contradicts Himself.
So glad that we can agree on this! 😃
Rather than an exegetical study of the Scriptures, Catholics are just as guilty as some Protestants by imposing their own preconceived ideas into their interpretation God’s written Word.
:rotfl: This is our book, written by Catholics for Catholics and it was written in order to supplement our own Catholic oral teachings and our Book is to be interpreted to show Catholic teaching only. Our Book, our rules. 😃
The theopneustos Scriptures are Divine revelation to be studied and taught, not a tool to be used by religious leaders in order to manipulate the masses. Distorting God’s Word goes all the way back to the Garden.
It is the responsibility of the Catholic Church “to teach divine truth” (gospel of Christ) to persons of every nation. The Catholic Church alone has Jesus’ authority to do this**. God commanded His Church** (the one built upon Peter who alone has the keys of the kingdom of heaven) to baptize and make disciples of persons of all nations, and to teach all these disciples to observe His teachings; this is not manipulation of the masses. This is obedience to God’s commands. 👍
 
Distorting God’s Word goes all the way back to the Garden.
That’s a very peculiar thing for someone who criticizes the CC’s Sacred Tradition.

Since’ “God’s Word” did not exist in written form “all the way back to the Garden”, then you must be talking about Sacred Tradition, yes?
 
prmerger: Bill Pick?
Um…yes, Bill Pick. What’s up with that question? I read his post and thought it was so good I wanted to share it here. There’s no arguing with his point.
Are you sure it was the Holy Spirit that told all those people those things?
Of course it wasn’t the Holy Spirit that’s teaching contrary doctrines, 1beleevr. The point is that the 40,000 denominations that come up with their own doctrines based on the same Scriptures each* believe * that the Holy Spirit is guiding them.
And who told the catholic church that Mary was a perpetual virgin? Who told them that they must confess to a priest? Who told them that the pope was the vicar of Christ?
Did you know, 1beleevr, that for the first 1500 years of Christianity that this is what the Holy Spirit told us?
 
humble in doubt: While I have not read all of your posts, the ones I have read are intriguing! Your religion is listed as former catholic, now NOTHING. I am always curious, when anyone leaves any church or religion. So do tell, what was your #1 reason for leaving the catholic religion? I can tell you that the reason I left the Baptist church I was attending in 2004, was because of legalism. And the pastor felt that it was okay to wax political from the pulpit:confused: Also, he openly criticized other religions. I found out later, that he was a former catholic:D
So did you do some church-shopping, 1beleevr, to find a church that fit with YOUR theology?

That always puzzles me when people leave a denomination because they disagree with the pastor’s interpretation of Scriptures. Didn’t they know he was a fallible man when they joined the denomination?

And church-shopping puzzles me, too, as it seems arrogant to go looking for something that matches your own fallible, non-authoritative interpretations of Scripture, rather than conforming your beliefs to Christ’s.
 
Um…yes, Bill Pick. What’s up with that question? I read his post and thought it was so good I wanted to share it here. There’s no arguing with his point.

Of course it wasn’t the Holy Spirit that’s teaching contrary doctrines, 1beleevr. The point is that the 40,000 denominations that come up with their own doctrines based on the same Scriptures each* believe * that the Holy Spirit is guiding them.

Did you know, 1beleevr, that for the first 1500 years of Christianity that this is what the Holy Spirit told us?
Isn’t it interesting that for 2,000 years, man has been trying to separate Christ from HIS Church and His Church from Her Sacred Tradition and Her Sacred Scriptures, but has never been successful . No one, not Heretics, not kings, not rulers, not the protestant reformation, not sinful clergy, and not even those from within the Church that would like to ‘changer her’ to suite themselves can ever change the TRUTH of the One,Holy,Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit won’t allow it!!! The sooner the world recognizes that, the better off we will all be. I pray that those Catholics that have left their Catholic Faith, for whatever reason, will come back home and learn the faith properly and truly. God Bless, Memaw
 
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