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moondweller
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From where do you get this?
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Nothing wrong with doubts. To quote Protestant theologian Fredrick Buechner, “Doubt is the ants-in-the-pants of faith.”
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PRmerger
Guest
Where did I get that humble is baptized? From the fact that he is an ex-Catholic.
Where did I get that he’s been claimed by Christ by baptism? From the teachings of Christ and the apostles.
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moondweller
Guest
According to Rome one cannot know if he/she has eternal life. But according to the Scriptures one can know (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24; 1 Jn. 5:9-13). That’s the difference between a works based religion and a Biblically based FAITH. The “narrow gate” is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Salvation is for those who believe.The CC does not teach that only Catholics are saved. Everyone is called to enter the kingdom (CCC543).
Who, then, are saved? We don’t know who. Luke 13:23
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moondweller
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Where do Christ and the Apostles teach this?
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PRmerger
Guest
That’s very Catholic of you to say that, moon!
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PRmerger
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See CCC 537, Rom 6:4, CCC 1265, Cor 6:15, 12:27, Rom 8:17, 2 Cor 5:17, 2 Pet 1:4, Gal 4:5-7, Cor 6;19
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moondweller
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So is the first part of my post.That’s very Catholic of you to say that, moon!
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PRmerger
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Indeed!
The Catholic Church teaches that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and, by his grace, in obedience to his commands (“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not from you; it is the gift of God. It is not from works, so no one may boast” [Eph. 2:8-9; see Phil. 2:13, Col. 1:29, Jas. 2:14-26]).
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Simeon_Hovey
Guest
The Lord said, “Judge not lest ye be judged.”
MT 7:3 “And why behold you the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the speck out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the speck out of your brother’s eye.”
Paul said (Titus 3:9), “[And] avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”
First, I’m very sorry that this happens to you and others. Based upon my studies I find no scriptural support for this [supply one’s own adjectives] behavior. It seems that the only verse some people are aware of is (LK 10:2), “Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest.” Thus many people jump from “being saved” to saving others without learning anything in between. Also, over the past 30 years I’ve found that it’s a rare person who’s actually read the Bible.
Simeon :compcoff:
MT 7:3 “And why behold you the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the speck out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the speck out of your brother’s eye.”
Paul said (Titus 3:9), “[And] avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.”
First, I’m very sorry that this happens to you and others. Based upon my studies I find no scriptural support for this [supply one’s own adjectives] behavior. It seems that the only verse some people are aware of is (LK 10:2), “Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest.” Thus many people jump from “being saved” to saving others without learning anything in between. Also, over the past 30 years I’ve found that it’s a rare person who’s actually read the Bible.
Simeon :compcoff:
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moondweller
Guest
None of these verses teach that Christ claims anyone for Himself through baptism. All the above verses pertain to those who have believed in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. IOW, they’re revealed truths that pertain to the saved “by grace through faith,” not those baptized in infancy. You can baptize an unbeliever (or an infant) all day long and he/she wouldn’t be any closer to salvation at the end of the day than at the beginning.See CCC 537, Rom 6:4, CCC 1265, Cor 6:15, 12:27, Rom 8:17, 2 Cor 5:17, 2 Pet 1:4, Gal 4:5-7, Cor 6;19
Nowhere is it taught in the Scriptures that Christ claims anyone through baptism. It’s those who personally believe in Christ that are to be subsequently baptized. HID is an expressed unbeliever, and in such a state of unbelief Christ lays no claim to him - baptized or not. Rome might lay claim to him, but heaven doesn’t “know” him.
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humble_in_doubt
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I never attributed by grace through faith to Catholicism (although I know they tacitly believe this … since it is recorded in Ephesians 2). Wasn’t faith alone a comment by Luther (that Catholics have formed an industry bashing)?That’s very Catholic of you to say that, moon!
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SteveGC
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Please define “believe” for us. One of the problems is that this word is defined in many different ways. Could we have the moondweller definition? And please be very specific and precise with it, because after all, I must do this one thing in order to have eternal life. Thanks
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josie_L
Guest
Excuse me, the Bible states unequivocally that you need to believe and be baptized to be saved. There is no debate or issue. The Bible has spoken. Humble in doubt is still marked by baptism (he was washed of original sin and received the Holy Spirit) therefore God will keep calling him Home.
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PRmerger
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Well, since you’re fallible, moon, then perhaps your private interpretation is wrong.
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SteveGC
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Faith must accompany baptism in the adult. Why are you stating something with the implication that the Church teaches something which She does not? If HID was baptized as an infant in The Church, then he is a member of Christ’s Church by virtue of the Spirit in the waters of baptism and the profession of faith of his parents. If he has expressed unbelief since then, then he is a prodigal son. Christ does lay claim to him in the sense that He is calling him home. Whether or not he will return is another story.
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PRmerger
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Humble is our brother in Christ.
We are brethren not by nature, but by the gift of grace, because that adoptive filiation gains us a real share in the life of the only Son, which was fully revealed in his resurrection. CCC 654
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josie_L
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And guys his name is Francis.
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moondweller
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The problem isn’t the lack of a proper definition of “believe,” but the Object of one’s belief. According to the Scriptures the faith by which God saves men is not in a what but in a Who, alone.1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."Rome teaches its members that no one can know if they have eternal life. Why is this? The answer is in the above quote which has nothing to do with arguing over a proper definition of the word “believe” but rather the Object of belief itself.
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humble_in_doubt
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I was watching the movie Spirit (pretty good flick … Samuel L. Jackson, a personal favorite, Scarlett Johansson, and the totally hot Eva Mendes, not a bad cast if I do say so). I’m trying to decide what’s more weird … this discussion or the movie
Honestly if you want my opinion of scripture, I’d agree with moondweller. Clearly Pauline theology demands faith. I was sprinkled with water as an infant in a CC, had my first communion, and was confirmed (heck, I was even an alter boy … go figure). However, if you read Paul (and perhaps even more profoundly John) faith is witness of election (good behavior is merely witness of faith).
From a behavior standpoint … at this point in life (besides the occasional Jack & Coke or Martini … which I find no problem with as long as we don’t drive) I excel. From a faith standpoint … I score zero. So if you guys are right I’m destined to hell
Honestly if you want my opinion of scripture, I’d agree with moondweller. Clearly Pauline theology demands faith. I was sprinkled with water as an infant in a CC, had my first communion, and was confirmed (heck, I was even an alter boy … go figure). However, if you read Paul (and perhaps even more profoundly John) faith is witness of election (good behavior is merely witness of faith).
From a behavior standpoint … at this point in life (besides the occasional Jack & Coke or Martini … which I find no problem with as long as we don’t drive) I excel. From a faith standpoint … I score zero. So if you guys are right I’m destined to hell
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