Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[PRmerger]

]Rome teaches its members that no one can know if they have eternal life

Well, the truth is, moon, you don’t know if you’re saved, either!

You believe that there are those who *think *they’re saved but never really were, then how do you know you’re not part of that group?

To quote from a wickedly funny newsletter from apologist John Martignoni:

Every believer in once saved always saved that I have ever met, also believes that there are those out there who think they are saved, but really are not – the faux believers, as I call them. So, ask anyone who believes in OSAS these questions (this is from an actual conversation):

Question: Are ther e people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?

Answer: Yes, there are.

Question: Are you saved?

Answer: Yes, I am.

Question: How do you know you’re not one of those people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?

Answer: I know in my heart that I am saved.

Question: Wouldn’t someone who thinks they’re saved, but really aren’t saved, say the same thing?

Answer: I suppose so.

Question: Then how do you know you’re really saved?

Answer: I just know.

Question: How do you know?

Answer: I just do.

The whole point of this line of questioning is that, if it is possible to think you’re saved, but not really be saved, then no one can have eternal security – no one can know for sure that they are saved – because anyone who thinks they’re saved could actually be one of those who think they are but really aren’t. As you ask these questions, I guarantee you will not be able to keep from smiling as the folks you’re talking to can do nothing but go ‘round and ‘round in a circle of illogic. Apologetics for the Masses, Issue #118, John Martignoni

 

[humble_in_doubt]

And guys his name is Francis.

MO of St. Francis of Assisi … I think all militant animal lovers are flaky; but I bet you guys don’t know the evangelical style he’s most famous for (I learned this from a Nazarene Pastor a few years ago in NYC believe it or not).

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Well, the truth is, moon, you don’t know if you’re saved, either!

IMO … from every indication given by the bible, if you don’t know you’re saved; you’re not saved.

 

[moondweller]

Faith must accompany baptism in the adult. Why are you stating something with the implication that the Church teaches something which She does not? If HID was baptized as an infant in The Church, then he is a member of Christ’s Church by virtue of the Spirit in the waters of baptism and the profession of faith of his parents.

Can you show me in the Scriptures where Jesus says all baptized children are mine?

If he has expressed unbelief since then, then he is a prodigal son.

Unbelief in what? A “prodigal son” is still a son. HID’s unbelief proves he never was.

Christ does lay claim to him in the sense that He is calling him home.

Calling him home?

Whether or not he will return is another story.

Salvation is not a “return” to anything.2 Cor 5:17 “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.”

 

[josie_L]

MO of St. Francis of Assisi … I think all militant animal lovers are flaky; but I bet you guys don’t know the evangelical style he’s most famous for (I learned this from a Nazarene Pastor a few years ago in NYC believe it or not).

What was it (I don’t even know why I bother to take the bait)?

 

[josie_L]

IMO … from every indication given by the bible, if you don’t know you’re saved; you’re not saved.

Why are Christians told to hope?

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Why are Christians told to hope?

good question … but it’s not because you’re supposed to doubt your status with god. Hope is aligned with faith (they’re used interchangeably). According to the bible if you believe in him – he will not put you to shame.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

What was it (I don’t even know why I bother to take the bait)?

there was no bait here … gosh (it’s actually something I know that many Christians in my experience don’t). St. Francis would have his monks go to a town. Spend a couple weeks there beautifying the town (building parks, fixing buildings in disrepair, cleaning the streets, etc.). He instructed his monks not to say a word about Jesus or God to the towns folk. Then as they were preparing to leave the towns folk would ask them … why the heck did you guys come here & do what you did? Then he would evangelize. He turned out to be one of the most successful evangelists in Christian history.

 

[Peter_J]

I never attributed by grace through faith to Catholicism (although I know they tacitly believe this … since it is recorded in Ephesians 2). Wasn’t faith alone a comment by Luther (that Catholics have formed an industry bashing)?

Fair point; but have you seen the recent(ish) statements by Pope Benedict on the subject? Pretty significant, IMO.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Fair point; but have you seen the recent(ish) statements by Pope Benedict on the subject? Pretty significant, IMO.

no I haven’t … you peaked my interest though? I do know Benedict is a huge fan of Augustine (so maybe real theology will return to the RCC)

 

[moondweller]

IMO … from every indication given by the bible, if you don’t know you’re saved; you’re not saved.

[SIGN]AMEN[/SIGN]

*Saved *means just that: SAVED. The Epistles are written to those who ARE saved but within them are various warnings to those among them who have not yet committed to faith in Christ alone, but desire rather to be saved (a future, hopeful event) according to one’s merit. But the testimony of Scripture says this:John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”“Saved through Him” not a church. But rather it’s the saved (and they know it) who make up Christ’s church. He came to save and the church He’s presently building is made up of all those who ARE (since Pentecost); and they know it because they have embraced His GRACE through faith.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

[SIGN]AMEN[/SIGN]

*Saved *means just that: SAVED. The Epistles are written to those who ARE saved but within them are various warnings to those among them who have not yet committed to faith in Christ alone, but desire rather to be saved (a future, hopeful event) according to one’s merit. But the testimony of Scripture says this:John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”“Saved through Him” not a church. But rather it’s the saved (and they know it) who make up Christ’s church. He came to save and the church He’s presently building is made up of all those who ARE (since Pentecost); and they know it because they have embraced His GRACE through faith.

I agree with the basic idea you’re presenting … but IMO there’s some nuance here. Paul told those who already had faith to continue in their hope. I believe he used the term hope, I guess as best we can translate it (in many but not all instances) in the same way he used faith (in other words he used the two terms interchangeably).

I don’t know if you ever read N.T. Wright … but he’s really good with Pauline theology (although I wouldn’t agree with every point he makes, I should really say every inference he makes, but where there’s doubt he leaves it open, so IMO he’s one of the few really good contemporary theologians out there). When I was a devout Christian my favorites were Augustine and Calvin. Although I felt Wesley was probably one of the best examples of a great Christian in terms of how he lived his life … his theology was wrong as heck.

 

[moondweller]

Why are Christians told to hope?

The “hope” expressed in the N.T. Scriptures for true believers is not a “hope so.” But the true believer enters into the divine reality of that which is not yet seen. This is nicely expressed by the Apostle John with all certainty:1 John 3:1-3 “See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we (believers) would be called children of God; and {such} WE ARE. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we ARE children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope {fixed} on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”

 

[humble_in_doubt]

The “hope” expressed in the N.T. Scriptures for true believers is not a “hope so.” But the true believer enters into the divine reality of that which is not yet seen. This is nicely expressed by the Apostle John with all certainty:1 John 3:1-3 “See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we (believers) would be called children of God; and {such} WE ARE. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we ARE children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope {fixed} on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”

exactly … this illustrates my point. Hope is used interchangeably with faith. But you’re basic point is exactly right. The Christian, according to the bible, either knows he or she is saved … or they’re not saved. Salvation is a certitude … not something you wish might come true (how is wishing it might be true any different than the average guy like me?).

 

[SteveGC]

The problem isn’t the lack of a proper definition of “believe,” but the Object of one’s belief. According to the Scriptures the faith by which God saves men is not in a what but in a Who, alone.1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."Rome teaches its members that no one can know if they have eternal life. Why is this? The answer is in the above quote which has nothing to do with arguing over a proper definition of the word “believe” but rather the Object of belief itself.

The problem is most certainly more in the definition of “believe”. We don’t have issue with the Object of belief, md. That’s why I didn’t bother to ask what is the Object of your belief. Ours is centered on our Savior, Jesus Christ…but it’s centered on EVERYTHING about Him and His teachings. That includes His Church. But our belief in His Church in no way diminishes our belief and focus on Christ…it amplifies it. Much of this is the same with Mary, btw. None of it diminishes, but rather, builds and lifts up Christ in our lives. It’s ALL about HIM, trust me.

So, back to my request. Define “believe” please.

 

[josie_L]

[SIGN]AMEN[/SIGN]

*Saved *means just that: SAVED. The Epistles are written to those who ARE saved but within them are various warnings to those among them who have not yet committed to faith in Christ alone, but desire rather to be saved (a future, hopeful event) according to one’s merit. But the testimony of Scripture says this:John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”“Saved through Him” not a church. But rather it’s the saved (and they know it) who make up Christ’s church. He came to save and the church He’s presently building is made up of all those who ARE (since Pentecost); and they know it because they have embraced His GRACE through faith.

Just letting you know moondweller he’s had a couple of drinks.

 

[SteveGC]

Can you show me in the Scriptures where Jesus says all baptized children are mine?

Probably not explicitly, as you and your ilk always demand (it’s a wonder you believe in the sole authority of Scripture or the Trinity based on this demand, btw)…but I can show you where whole households were baptized, and where baptism brings upon the Spirit of God into a person. And if everyone in an entire household is baptized, and every one of them receives the Spirit, then most assuredly, they are Christ’s.

moondweller:

Unbelief in what? A “prodigal son” is still a son. HID’s unbelief proves he never was.

He is a son His baptism made him an adoptive son of God. He doesn’t believe in his Father anymore, but that doesn’t mean he still isn’t His son.

moondweller:

Calling him home?

To belief, to repentance…hopefully through His Church.

moondweller:

Salvation is not a “return” to anything.2 Cor 5:17 “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.”

Salvation (in the sense of eternal life) is also not something that happens, nor is known, before judgment day. Regardless, I didn’t say a return to salvation. The return I’m referring to is a return to a right relationship with God.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Just letting you know moondweller he’s had a couple of drinks.

even drunk my logic exceeds yours by far

and yeah … at this point I’m pretty toasted

If I believed the bible I’d be protestant in a heart beat (to spite my Catholic upbringing). Scripture is a book, and as such very easy to understand. The CC says apples are really oranges, and it really is Mary on the tree in your yard. At least protestants are a little more rational

In fact Episcopalians are cool … and Methodists are OK too (even though Presbyterians are right … who cares about whose more right in interpreting ancient mythology anyway).

 

[Memaw]

Did you hear about the “Lutheran” who went to heaven and was asked to “shush” and to tiptoe quietly as she passed a certain door?

After they passed the door and got further down the corridor, St. Peter explained, “The “Catholics” are in there. They think they’re the only ones here.”

Fill in the " "s with whatever denominations you wish.

That is soooooo old its pathetic! St. Peter was a Catholic!!! And what about all the protestant denominations that believe Catholics are not even Christians. Lets stop all this garbage and truly work for Unity as Our Lord prayed for. Why are we sooooo afraid of the “TRUTH.” If the Catholic Church is the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ, then WHAT is there to be afraid of??? Wouldn’t we be much wiser to set aside our own false pride and work WITH Jesus and not against HIM. Any one who studies history without prejudice can see that the the Catholic Church is the same in its doctrine as it was from the very beginning, 2000 years ago. If we really want to be followers of Christ then lets follow HIM in Truth and Grace. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Peter_J]

no I haven’t … you peaked my interest though?

I refer to the Pope’s statements last November:

Against this cultural pressure, which not only threatened the Israelite identity but also the faith in the one God and in his promises, it was necessary to create a wall of distinction, a shield of defence to protect the precious heritage of the faith; this wall consisted precisely in the Judaic observances and prescriptions. Paul, who had learned these observances in their role of defending God’s gift, of the inheritance of faith in one God alone, saw this identity threatened by the freedom of the Christians this is why he persecuted them. At the moment of his encounter with the Risen One he understood that with Christ’s Resurrection the situation had changed radically. With Christ, the God of Israel, the one true God, became the God of all peoples. The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

• vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html