Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

[Peter_J]

Hi sambos,

As for the first part of my statement; it can only be understood from this perspective. I was raised Catholic. My family went to mass and recieved the sacraments. This is Key because they did not live their faith. My father is twice divorsed (Catholic? I think not) However, he manipulated church law by insisting both his marriages we done civily. (Judging?) Yes because I saw and experienced his sin. How did being in Our Lords presence change his life? It did nothing for him. ( I am not arguing against the presence in the Eucharist) During his period of separation he had many affairs but still recieved the sacraments. As for me I received the sacraments but didn’t believe so they were voided for me in a sense. It wasn’t until I knew Jesus through his Holy Scriptures and in a developed prayer life that I could appreciate the sacraments and see the need for their grace. Keep in mind the aposltes knew Jesus in relationship long before they knew him in his Eucharist. Jesus didn’t ask his disciples to first have the Eucharist and then follow him but to follow him, live with him, know him and then gave them his Eucharsit so that when he departed he was always with them in the Holy Spirit and in body in the eucharist. There is a woman across the street from me who is from Germany originally. Her father is Italian. She refuses to go to mass though I’ve encouraged her to do so because of her experiences with the catholic church. She believes the priest are Evil. Her father works for the Mafia and he made all sorts of statements about how he paid of priest and extorted money etc… I tell her this is not the true church. The Catholic churches does not teach these things but she can’t differentiate between “real” Catholics and the ones who abused her. Many others with this similar stories. I’ve mentioned these things not to condemn. But to provide an understanding of what I am saying why people leave the chruch and this is a problem. Your right about the church teaches not to give sacraments to people who are outright sinning. My point was that they don’t search these people out (unless it is political as in the case of Carey) or it is overtly obvious. But the church is hoping that the grace of the sacraments will lead those to repentance.

This strikes me a very “Catholic” post. (No offense intend, of course. )

 

[sambos671]

Hi sambos,

This strikes me a very “Catholic” post. (No offense intend, of course. )

No offense indeed. I admit that I’ve been wrong about a lot of things that I thought the Catholic faith taught. This misunderstanding came from two sources

1. The witness to the faith by my family and others. They did not promulgate the faith as they should have. They’ve substituted their desires over the faith but thought it was enough for ritual. This is wrong:

II The Language of the Faith
170 We do not believe in formulas, but in those realities they express, which faith alows us to touch. “The believer’s act (of faith) does not terminate in the propositions, but in the realities (which they express).” All the same, we do not approach these realities with
186 the help of formulations of the faith which permit us to express the faith and to hand it on, to celebrate it in community, to assimilate and to live on it more and more. - Catachism of the Catholic Church 2nd edition Liberia Editrice Vaticana

It is clear that ritual and prayers in of themselves are nothing with out assimilating it into our lives. This is where many (not all, not most) catholics like my family go wrong. It is a requirement that Catholics pass on their faith in their lives and their speach;

166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act 875
No one can believe alone, just as no one can live. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given your life. The believer has received from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neihbor impels us to speak to others about our faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church 2nd edition

Therefore the Catholic Faith must be assimilated and lived and spoken of to others.

1. From protestants who really know nothing about the Catholic Church apart from the terrible things that occured during the reformation. I think if a protestant really took the time to understand the Catholic faith without their preconcieved notions acting as a lense to color their thoughts they would find there are agreements. They would see that Faith alone is actually not true in of itself but that it is apart of a whole. How can a protestant come to faith if not given by the Lord? See even protestants who believe faith alone actually don’t. They would say “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” So God initiates even the protestant faith. They say they are Sola Scriptura but even this is not true. How many protestants read the commentaries to better understand the scriptures? It is a mans opion on the meaning of the scripture so even here they are reliant on protestant tradition. How can protestants use the trinitarian language of the 1st and 2nd eccuminical councils to refer to God ( in their doxology) that is extra scriptures. Its truth is revealed but the language is the Catholic Church’s. So they are not Sola Scriptura. They insist that infant baptism is wrong but if they were sola scriptura they would have to remain silent on this since the scriptures do not say specifically that infant baptism was forbiden. We can gather that it may have occured but that is speculation from sources outside of scriptures. The protestant who is true to sola scriptura would stay silent. So there are many misunderstanding even of their own theology. So how then can they know Catholic theology?

 

[JimArsenault]

IF you are expecting everyone Catholic to be walking around like saintly little tin soldiers, you will be very disappointed. We are human, we sin, we’re weak, we don’t always set a good example but I am sure you have met many on this forum that are very strong and knowledgeable in their Catholic faith. If a Catholic is ill informed today it is usually their own fault as there are soo many wonderful sources out there to learn from. The Church teaches but it can’t teach someone who isn’t willing to learn. If they think a “personal” relationship replaces Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, then they are sadly mistaken. You can’t get any more personal than receiving Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in Holy Communion. Love is not just an emotion, it is first an act of the will. We must choose to do the right thing, whether we “feel” like it or not. Whether we fully understand it or not.

Elloquently put madam

 

[Namesake]

Could you please attend an RCIA class (finish it) before attempting to argue Catholic versus Protestant theology…

Yes, i suppose Catholics should study various Protestant theologies also… but i feel most Catholics on the forums have (more or less) done that…

I’m sorry, but it really rankles me when Protestants think they know Catholic theology and they so positively DO NOT!!

another source of information about the true Catholic faith can be found here at Catholic Answers…

I just don’t think it is right to attack something you do not understand…

I don’t think RICA is definitive and therefore it isn’t as good as studying various Catholic writings like the CATECHISM OF THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH, and other writings.

It’s amazing that Catholics so often claim that protestants who argue against points held by the RCC are uninformed. It ain’t necessarily so. Some of us are very well informed. Just because an outside perspective challenges Catholic beliefs doesn’t mean it is an ignorant challenge.

 

[Always_For_Him]

It’s amazing that Catholics so often claim that protestants who argue against points held by the RCC are uninformed. It ain’t necessarily so. Some of us are very well informed. Just because an outside perspective challenges Catholic beliefs doesn’t mean it is an ignorant challenge.

I really beg to differ. There is more to learn about the Catholic Church and it’s history, teachings, understanding of Scripture and Sacred Tradition that anyone can learn in a lifetime. If you have spent your whole life studying and learning your faith, there is absolutely no way you have done any real studying of Catholicism. If you would study the Catholic faith without your Protestant glasses on and without blindly trusting what your own Church’s teachings and tradition have taught you, and without believing in general Protestant tradition, you would learn many Truths that you are closed to now. Any non-C’s outside perspective exists because it is teachings of man and their beliefs outside the Catholic Church. How can you or any non-C think they really know what they are talking about since they are not Catholic either? Every non-C belief that is not in line with Catholic Teachings is a belief/ideology created by man outside of the Catholic Church, and very untrue.

 

[Namesake]

I really beg to differ. There is more to learn about the Catholic Church and it’s history, teachings, understanding of Scripture and Sacred Tradition that anyone can learn in a lifetime. If you have spent your whole life studying and learning your faith, there is absolutely no way you have done any real studying of Catholicism. If you would study the Catholic faith without your Protestant glasses on and without blindly trusting what your own Church’s teachings and tradition have taught you, and without believing in general Protestant tradition, you would learn many Truths that you are closed to now. Any non-C’s outside perspective exists because it is teachings of man and their beliefs outside the Catholic Church. How can you or any non-C think they really know what they are talking about since they are not Catholic either? Every non-C belief that is not in line with Catholic Teachings is a belief/ideology created by man outside of the Catholic Church, and very untrue.

I guess part of my opinion is that most Catholics that I know, don’t know or follow RCC teachings. Even here a lot of Catholics don’t know what the RCC teaches. I do know quite a lot and way more than most Catholics I associate with.

 

[Memaw]

Originally Posted by sambos671 View Post
However, I do not believe that I could ever get to the point of appreciating Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist without first knowing Jesus personally.

sambos671,

In the Catholic Church they have such things called instructions, or RCIA, so you can learn to “KNOW” Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, ( like one poster said, in a special way that compares to no other,) before you actually receive HIM in Holy Communion.
When I was a kid, (long ago) the very first question in my very first religion book was, “Why did GOD make me?” the answer was, "God made me to “know” Him, to “love” Him and to “serve” Him, in this world, so I could spend eternity with Him in the next. Every Catholic is taught that! Before being allowed to receive Holy Communion. How much one retains or remembers, or even cares about it, is up to the individual.

 

[Memaw]

I guess part of my opinion is that most Catholics that I know, don’t know or follow RCC teachings. Even here a lot of Catholics don’t know what the RCC teaches. I do know quite a lot and way more than most Catholics I associate with.

Why do you keep comparing yourself to others? We all know many people who do not set good examples in many ways but you don’t have to follow them or answer for them. We don’t judge them either. Go on your way, learn the faith and see for yourself what kind of Catholic you may want to be. Don’t focus so much on them, just pray for them, thats the most important thing you can do and set a good example yourself. Maybe you can be helpful to them.

 

[guanophore]

I think it’s important to respect fellow Christians, whether they are Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant.

And we need to remember that all of us have spent years and years becoming assimiliated into our particular faith community, and to us, it seems absolutely trustworthy. ** It is very difficult to discover that what you believe is untrue or twisted in some way. There is a grieving process that comes with giving up treasured beliefs, and part of the grieving process is anger.**
We need to be patient and gentle with each other, and always remember that the Holy Spirit is the One who leads us into Truth.

This is a very important point, and explains a lot of what we see here on CAF.

 

[Namesake]

Why do you keep comparing yourself to others? We all know many people who do not set good examples in many ways but you don’t have to follow them or answer for them. We don’t judge them either. Go on your way, learn the faith and see for yourself what kind of Catholic you may want to be. Don’t focus so much on them, just pray for them, thats the most important thing you can do and set a good example yourself. Maybe you can be helpful to them.

Best answer I have seen ever.

 

[Memaw]

I don’t think RICA is definitive and therefore it isn’t as good as studying various Catholic writings like the CATECHISM OF THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH, and other writings.

It’s amazing that Catholics so often claim that protestants who argue against points held by the RCC are uninformed. It ain’t necessarily so. Some of us are very well informed. Just because an outside perspective challenges Catholic beliefs doesn’t mean it is an ignorant challenge.

Many, many are very well MISinformed! and some know it and still stubbornly stick to the untruths.

 

[Memaw]

I guess part of my opinion is that most Catholics that I know, don’t know or follow RCC teachings. Even here a lot of Catholics don’t know what the RCC teaches. I do know quite a lot and way more than most Catholics I associate with.

Well, maybe you do but guess what? Their still Catholic and your not, at least their trying. You have to see the Catholic Church beyond those that do not live their faith as they should. At least as you think they should. Only God knows the heart and mind of each of us. If your interested, then learn for yourself and live it for yourself and pray for all. Come on in, the waters fine.

 

[Always_For_Him]

I guess part of my opinion is that most Catholics that I know, don’t know or follow RCC teachings. Even here a lot of Catholics don’t know what the RCC teaches. I do know quite a lot and way more than most Catholics I associate with.

I understand what you are saying. But, you know, that particular problem swings all ways. It isn’t just the Catholics that you know that aren’t practicing their faith to it’s fullest, or know or believe everything their Church teaches. It is Christians of every single Church/denomination. We are human. We were given the crosses to bear of making good choices, to choose God’s will over our own will! That is sooooooooooo difficult for us mere humans. Still, we are expected to choose and honour God’s will over our own EVERY single time. We all fail. We are all sinners. The issue then becomes for all Christians, to admit when we have done wrong and strive to live by God’s designs. The world today, the secular mindset, does not jive with God’s ideas. We are gonna fail. We are gonna make bad choices. BUT, when we do, we have to believe in God and love God enough to admit when we have done wrong and truly be sorry for our sin and NEVER want to commit that sin again. That is called, a firm purpose of amendment. What I am beginning to talk about here is part of the process one has to go through before going to confession. I know that you probably don’t understand that yet, but it really is a beautiful sacrament that gives so MUCH grace.

Anyway, don’t do what “they” do if you think it is a sin or wrong. We can all be judged by each other in different ways. That is why we should never judge another person, only help them see the light, love them through it and always be a strong Christian for them to turn to. I might think I am doing just fine, but you will see an action or something that really is a sin, and vice versa. All we can do is continue to try to live up to God’s expectations of us, live honest, loving, helpful, lives and continue to spread God’s Truth.

Your openess is really refreshing. Just keep plugging away, learning the Truth, remember to be open, and keep God and your faith first and formost in your life. That is all we can really do.
Kristie

 

[sambos671]

Originally Posted by sambos671 View Post
However, I do not believe that I could ever get to the point of appreciating Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist without first knowing Jesus personally.

sambos671,

In the Catholic Church they have such things called instructions, or RCIA, so you can learn to “KNOW” Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, ( like one poster said, in a special way that compares to no other,) before you actually receive HIM in Holy Communion.
When I was a kid, (long ago) the very first question in my very first religion book was, “Why did GOD make me?” the answer was, "God made me to “know” Him, to “love” Him and to “serve” Him, in this world, so I could spend eternity with Him in the next. Every Catholic is taught that! Before being allowed to receive Holy Communion. How much one retains or remembers, or even cares about it, is up to the individual.

Well, I wonder what you think about my post #142. The thing is I was raised Catholic and they didn’t have an emphasis on the RCIA classes like they do today. It was enough that I went to perochial school. Saying something, believing something, and living something are all different. When the’re all in one accord then you have something. There are things today that was a bit different from when I was 15. On the other hand I thought I could mention some items because I’ve read the Catachism of the Catholic Church which seems to be a compilation of certain catholic beliefs that many catholics don’t even know!

 

[JimArsenault]

Here we go tear apart Catholics for lack of knowledge well I may not have memorized the catacism but at least I have 1 for a referance if I should get confused. I am so glad I don’t have to rely on my own personel opinion.
I will follow the Catholic church to the best of my ability because it truely is the church Jesus started.
It never used to be so complicated but constant attacks have led to elaborate explainations to satisfy the unbelievers.

"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me.And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me"

Peace be with you

 

[Namesake]

Here we go tear apart Catholics for lack of knowledge well I may not have memorized the catacism but at least I have 1 for a referance if I should get confused. I am so glad I don’t have to rely on my own personel opinion.
I will follow the Catholic church to the best of my ability because it truely is the church Jesus started.
It never used to be so complicated but constant attacks have led to elaborate explainations to satisfy the unbelievers.

"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me.And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me"

Peace be with you

But the majority of people on Earth don’t accept that. Why would such a loving god doom most people to eternal damnation?

 

[sambos671]

Here we go tear apart Catholics for lack of knowledge well I may not have memorized the catacism but at least I have 1 for a referance if I should get confused. I am so glad I don’t have to rely on my own personel opinion.
I will follow the Catholic church to the best of my ability because it truely is the church Jesus started.
It never used to be so complicated but constant attacks have led to elaborate explainations to satisfy the unbelievers.

"Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me.And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me"

Peace be with you

How you jump to conclusions! If you read my thread post the point wasn’t knowing verbatim the Catachism. It was putting it into action. See the point of this thread is for protestants not to mention anything about catholicism unless they first learn what the faith is. Ok. I’ve learned and am learning the faith. So I feel as if I’ve satisfied the requirement of this thread enough to put my 2 cents worth. And if you actually read my posts you will find that I have very little against the Catholic church. I have a problem with how some (not all) have put their faith into practice. And it is my contention that these that I have a problem with aren’t really practicing the teachings of the faith. Some here will say they are not really catholics and I agree with them. But I also said the church hopes for their repentance and their salvation. There seems to be a defensiveness about how some have not walked according to their faith and this a lead some astray. Could it be it hits a little too close to home for some? A lot of excusses and diversions are being used and the marines do say the best defense is a good offense! (I did say that last part because I have a tendency to be a little impish).

 

[Memaw]

Well, I wonder what you think about my post #142. The thing is I was raised Catholic and they didn’t have an emphasis on the RCIA classes like they do today. It was enough that I went to perochial school. Saying something, believing something, and living something are all different. When the’re all in one accord then you have something. There are things today that was a bit different from when I was 15. On the other hand I thought I could mention some items because I’ve read the Catachism of the Catholic Church which seems to be a compilation of certain catholic beliefs that many catholics don’t even know!

sambos671,
Love has to come from within, No one can “make” another love. All the instructions in the world won’t make you love God, you have to do that by opening your heart to Him. RCIA is an adult instruction class, not for kids, although they do now have one for young folks. There have always been instruction classes for adults and young. folks of every age even before RCIA . I still think you worry to much about others when you should be developing your own spiritual life.

 

[Memaw]

No offense indeed. I admit that I’ve been wrong about a lot of things that I thought the Catholic faith taught. This misunderstanding came from two sources

1. The witness to the faith by my family and others. They did not promulgate the faith as they should have. They’ve substituted their desires over the faith but thought it was enough for ritual. This is wrong:

It is clear that ritual and prayers in of themselves are nothing with out assimilating it into our lives. This is where many (not all, not most) catholics like my family go wrong. It is a requirement that Catholics pass on their faith in their lives and their speach;

Therefore the Catholic Faith must be assimilated and lived and spoken of to others.

1. From protestants who really know nothing about the Catholic Church apart from the terrible things that occured during the reformation. I think if a protestant really took the time to understand the Catholic faith without their preconcieved notions acting as a lense to color their thoughts they would find there are agreements. They would see that Faith alone is actually not true in of itself but that it is apart of a whole. How can a protestant come to faith if not given by the Lord? See even protestants who believe faith alone actually don’t. They would say “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God” So God initiates even the protestant faith. They say they are Sola Scriptura but even this is not true. How many protestants read the commentaries to better understand the scriptures? It is a mans opion on the meaning of the scripture so even here they are reliant on protestant tradition. How can protestants use the trinitarian language of the 1st and 2nd eccuminical councils to refer to God ( in their doxology) that is extra scriptures. Its truth is revealed but the language is the Catholic Church’s. So they are not Sola Scriptura. They insist that infant baptism is wrong but if they were sola scriptura they would have to remain silent on this since the scriptures do not say specifically that infant baptism was forbiden. We can gather that it may have occured but that is speculation from sources outside of scriptures. The protestant who is true to sola scriptura would stay silent. So there are many misunderstanding even of their own theology. So how then can they know Catholic theology?

OK now I have read your post Again,
I have a question; How can protestants use the Catholic Book, Sacred Scriptures, against Catholics?. They should be thankful we share it with them. After all, we should have copyrights on it. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Everyone would know the Truth, believe the Truth and follow the Truth!!! Jesus said, I AM the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. HE didn’t say, ‘I am many ways’, ‘whatever you want the truth to be’ or ‘whatever life you want to live’. HE gave us a Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, to help us follow HIS WAY, Know HIS TRUTH, and live HIS LIFE. The Catholic Church has been true to its founder all thru the 2,000 years of its existence. in spite of the problems from some of its members, and those opposing its truths. Why don’t you ever talk about some of the Saints in the Catholic Church, you seem to like pointing out the sinners and forgetting the Saints. they are our examples and we can learn a lot from them. The Blessed Mother being the greatest. Theres lots to learn and no one will ever “know it all”, it is a lifetime journey but an exciting one. It is a very challenging time to be a faithful Catholic.

 

[Memaw]

But the majority of people on Earth don’t accept that. Why would such a loving god doom most people to eternal damnation?

God doesn’t “doom” anyone!!. They doom themselves by the lives they live. Not following the truth. He didn’t doom Adam and Eve into disobeying HIM but they suffered the consequences, and so do we. He didn’t doom Judas into hanging himself. Sin is our choice, if GOD had HIS way no one would sin. While GOD is “All Loving and ALL merciful” he is also, “All Knowing and ALL JUST”.