Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??

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I don’t dispute that under it’s own revised definition of infallibility the Galileo affair cannot be said to contravene the doctrine of infallibility. However, my contention is that the CC did constructively contravene the doctrine by any reasonably objective standard. Indeed many Catholics were concerned that by dogmatically defining the doctrine in Vatican I it logically undermined the concept of infallibility (since it at least gives the aura of a post hoc attempt to harmonize its claim of infallibility with some of its more controversial actions throughout history).

Indeed prior to Vatican I papal infallibility (and infallibility of “the church”) was thought to be much more broad when compared to the Vatican I framework. Here’s some quotes from ancient writers on the subject:

“We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the Most Blessed Pope of the City of Rome; for Blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of the faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the Bishop of the City of Rome.” Peter Chrysologus, Letter to Eutyches (449).

According to this promise of the Lord, the Apostolic Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud, above all Heads and Bishops, and Primates of Churches and people, with its own Pontiffs, with most abundant faith, and the authority of Peter. And while other Churches have to blush for the error of some of their members, this reigns alone immovably established, enforcing silence, and stopping the mouths of all heretics; and we, not drunken with the wine of pride, confess together with it the type of truth, and of the holy apostolic tradition. (St. Cyril of Alexandria, as quoted by St. Thomas in the Catena Aurea).

In 1870 the requirement that the pope must be speaking ex cathedra in order to invoke infallibility was promulgated. While ancient theologians did mention the term, there was no dogmatic framework to invoke infallibility prior to Vatican I (and indeed you will find no formal ritual for invoking infallibility prior to 1870). In other words the claims of the CC in this regard cannot be substantiated.

I would say even measuring what might be fairly viewed as “constructive” invocations of infallibility against Vatican I is an inaccurate measure (since it allows the church the convenience of defining doctrine post hoc and subjectively); and what should really matter is whether or not Christendom viewed certain church actions as carrying the “force of infallibility” when those events actually occurred (since the doctrine was not dogmatically defined prior to 1870). In other words, taking the Galileo affair as an example, is it reasonable to think church authorities or the sitting pope (or even the average Catholic who was aware of the controversy) thought for a moment the church lacked infallible authority when they prosecuted Galileo?

As we see from the quotes above there is evidence to support the fact that infallibility was viewed as much more broad than it is today. Certainly the authority of the church to punish what it viewed as heretics rested on its assumed infallible authority. Of course the churches error with regard to Galileo didn’t end at his death. A generation after Galileo’s death (in 1664) the church went farther to extirpate his error:

The Index for that year was prefixed by a Bull. Entitled Speculatores Domus Israel, it was signed by Pope Alexander VII, who declared, 'We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.’

“The importance of this document cannot be minimized, for it included and re-affirmed not only previous formal condemnations, but 'all the relevant decrees up to the present time*, that have been issued since the Index of our predecessor Clement’” (link here).

*Against Galileo (See Id.)

If that’s not a smoking gun then I don’t know what is? 🍿🍿

Anyway, here’s a wonderful essay on papal infallibility (and related topics) from a protestant perspective:

ccel.org/s/schaff/history/6_6_per.htm
 
It should be observed in conclusion that papal infallibility is a personal and incommunicable charisma, which is not shared by any pontifical tribunal. It was promised directly to Peter, and to each of Peter’s successors in the primacy,
Can you show me, specifically, where this infallibility is promised directly to Peter and each of his so-called successors?
 
‘We, having taken the advice of our Cardinals, confirm and approve with Apostolic authority by the tenor of these presents, and command and enjoin all persons everywhere to yield to this Index a constant and complete obedience.’
I think we’re all aware of the phrase “having taken the advice of our Cardinals” (seeing as it’s been quoted more than once already). What point are you trying to make about it? What point are you trying to make about it?

There isn’t anything terribly unusual about a Pope taking the advice of his Cardinals.
 
As to the Galileo affair,** it is quite enough to point out the fact that the condemnation of the heliocentric theory was the work of a fallible tribunal. The pope cannot delegate the exercise of his infallible authority to the Roman Congregations, and whatever issues formally in the name of any of these, even when approved and confirmed in the ordinary official way by the pope, does not pretend to be ex cathedra and infallible. **
Alexander specifically invoked his apostolic authority when issuing the papal bull affirming the verdict against Galileo. This is good enough for any reasonable observer to understand he believed he was invoking his infallible authority. Then the church dogmatically promulgated its doctrine of infallibility in 1870 in order to harmonize it with its historical errors.
 
I think we’re all aware of the phrase “having taken the advice of our Cardinals” (seeing as it’s been quoted more than once already). What point are you trying to make about it? What point are you trying to make about it?

There isn’t anything terribly unusual about a Pope taking the advice of his Cardinals.
Pope Alexander issued what he believed was an infallible decree; according to the common procedure of issuing such decrees in the 17th century. He invoked his apostolic authority (can you explain why the heck a pope would invoke his apostolic authority if he didn’t believe he was invoking his infallibility? The two are for all intents and purposes synonymous).

Moreover, the bull contained a demand that everyone in Christendom adhere to his affirmation of the verdict against Galileo. These are the elements of papal infallibility. Why shouldn’t I think your defense of this (and contention that it’s something other than an invocation of papal infallibility) is absurd?
 
He invoked his apostolic authority (can you explain why the heck a pope would invoke his apostolic authority if he didn’t believe he was invoking his infallibility? The two are for all intents and purposes synonymous)
They are certainly not syonymous. Apostolic authority is the power to bind and loose. Not to be infallible. As mentioned, not every proclamation made by the Magisterium, under apostolic authority, is infallible.
 
Pope Alexander issued what he believed was an infallible decree;
I think it’s extremely rare (although not necessarily impossible) for a Pope to think he’s exercising infallibility when he in fact isn’t. In any case, I’m not at all convinced that this was the case here. You ask …
can you explain why the heck a pope would invoke his apostolic authority if he didn’t believe he was invoking his infallibility?
I believe I can. Pope Alexander (not to be confused with Alexander Pope) was issuing a command to his “subjects”, and he was issuing it with Apostolic authority.
The two are for all intents and purposes synonymous).

Moreover, the bull contained a demand that everyone in Christendom adhere to his affirmation of the verdict against Galileo. These are the elements of papal infallibility. Why shouldn’t I think your defense of this (and contention that it’s something other than an invocation of papal infallibility) is absurd?
It’s a free country. You’re perfectly free to believe that Pope Alexander thought he was exercising infallibility, and you’re also free to believe that it’s “absurd” for me to think otherwise.

What saddens me about all this, is that your posts here are probably going to play right into the hands of those Catholics who want to equate “non-Catholic” with “anti-Catholic”.
 
I think it’s extremely rare (although not necessarily impossible) for a Pope to think he’s exercising infallibility when he in fact isn’t.
Now isn’t this an interesting statement?!!! :rotfl:
In any case, I’m not at all convinced that this was the case here.
So it’s up to a layman to determine whether a Pope is/was delusional or not? Has Rome confided in you on other Papal matters?

Since the Pope himself doesn’t know if or when he is speaking infallibly, besides you, Peter, who else officially determines when or if he is so speaking?
 
I think we’re all aware of the phrase “having taken the advice of our Cardinals” (seeing as it’s been quoted more than once already). What point are you trying to make about it? What point are you trying to make about it?

There isn’t anything terribly unusual about a Pope taking the advice of his Cardinals.
Peter read the above paragraph after I quoted the Pope and you’ll understand. Galileo was being tried by a tribunal (of Cardinals) therefore that which the Pope said is not considered infallible and ex-cathedra because the Pope cannot delegate his authority to such as these (roman congregations). So Francis (humble in doubt) is wrong in insisting this is an infallible statement by the Pope.
 
They are certainly not syonymous. Apostolic authority is the power to bind and loose. Not to be infallible. As mentioned, not every proclamation made by the Magisterium, under apostolic authority, is infallible.
So then you’re saying there’s allowable room for the Magisterium to proclaim error with “apostolic authority.”
 
Alexander specifically invoked his apostolic authority when issuing the papal bull affirming the verdict against Galileo. This is good enough for any reasonable observer to understand he believed he was invoking his infallible authority. Then the church dogmatically promulgated its doctrine of infallibility in 1870 in order to harmonize it with its historical errors.
Pope Alexander VII issued a command to his faithful and purposely used his apostolic authority as a means by which to enforce his command. He was reminding them of his position, therefore brooking no argument with the faithful who wished to do otherwise. Remember, the whole reason Galileo got in trouble and was before a tribunal was because he disobeyed the papal decree that he initially agreed to. The Pope did not make an infallible statement (it does not have all the requirements necessary to make it such) and furthermore the Church did not deliberately harmonize anything, doctrines develop throughout time, that is, we get a better understanding of them. It’s the same with many of our other doctrines (usually defined infallibly during or after crises).
 
So then you’re saying there’s allowable room for the Magisterium to proclaim error with “apostolic authority.”
No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that not all Magisterial pronouncements are infallibly declared. Yet, the response of the faithful must be to give our assent, using our faith and reason, whether they are infallible or not.

See Numbers 17, in which Moses led the Israelites in the wrong direction, yet God navigated his way and led the Israelites to the Promised Land.

See also Hebrews 13:17.
 
Moreover, the bull contained a demand that everyone in Christendom adhere to his affirmation of the verdict against Galileo. These are the elements of papal infallibility.
Opinion noted.

BTW, if I might make a general comment, it’s pretty obvious that you want to show us (Catholics) our difficulties, problems, or whatever you want to call them; but the real question is, Is this because you want to help us (possibly “show us the light”) or is it more that you want to kick us when we are down?
 
Opinion noted.

BTW, if I might make a general comment, it’s pretty obvious that you want to show us (Catholics) our difficulties, problems, or whatever you want to call them; but the real question is, Is this because you want to help us (possibly “show us the light”) or is it more that you want to kick us when we are down?
I just wish western man can return to rational thought & dispense with all this eastern mythology. OK seriously :). How can you say I’m kicking you when you’re down when you haven’t admitted your down? In other words I’m arguing that infallibility is logically difficult to maintain … if you agreed with me and I jested and mocked you that would be kicking you while your down. Since you disagreed with me; and indeed you along with numerous other posters demanded I prove my point … I proved my point (I just did what you guys asked me to do).
 
Pope Alexander VII issued a command to his faithful and purposely used his apostolic authority as a means by which to enforce his command. He was reminding them of his position, therefore brooking no argument with the faithful who wished to do otherwise.
yes exactly … this is what popes do when they invoke infallibility (verses merely voicing an opinion on some obscure topic).
 
I just wish western man can return to rational thought & dispense with all this eastern mythology. I know I’m wishing in vein … but you asked 🙂
Dunno about that - if we’re dealing with a supernatural God who works mysteriously… I think Eastern Thought, especially Eastern Christian thought, certainly has a place. You can’t use rationalism to define or quantify the supernatural. Just can’t be done.
 
Dunno about that - if we’re dealing with a supernatural God who works mysteriously… I think Eastern Thought, especially Eastern Christian thought, certainly has a place. You can’t use rationalism to define or quantify the supernatural. Just can’t be done.
Christianity itself is an Eastern Religion (regardless of sect or denomination) … it didn’t start in London as far I know, it started in Jerusalem right? As far as rationalism … you can examine the claims of religion using rational thought (to spite all the opinion to the contrary).

For instance does it make sense that a god who manifested himself in such profound ways to the ancients suddenly disappeared from the world stage? Is it a coincidence that claims of supernatural manifestations of divine power have become exceedingly rare; just as mankind began quantifying the natural world (and all its phenomena) through the prism of science?

Or does it make more sense to simply acknowledge what is most likely the truth. Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, etc. are not more true than the mythologies of Zeus, Odin, or Mithra?
 
Alexander specifically invoked his apostolic authority when issuing the papal bull affirming the verdict against Galileo. This is good enough for any reasonable observer to understand he believed he was invoking his infallible authority. Then the church dogmatically promulgated its doctrine of infallibility in 1870 in order to harmonize it with its historical errors.
“Reasonable observer” huh, that leaves you out. It was NOT an infallible statement, get OVER it and move on to find some other thing to drag around forever. God Bless, Memaw
 
How can you say I’m kicking you when you’re down when you haven’t admitted your down?
I think you’re getting a little nit-picky there – although ironically the nit you’re picking is your own invention, since I didn’t say that you are “kicking us when we are down” …
BTW, if I might make a general comment, it’s pretty obvious that you want to show us (Catholics) our difficulties, problems, or whatever you want to call them; but the real question is, Is this because you want to help us (possibly “show us the light”) or is it more that you want to kick us when we are down?
(emphasis added). At any rate, I would hope this discussion can do better than picking nits. :rolleyes:
In other words I’m arguing that infallibility is logically difficult to maintain … if you agreed with me and I jested and mocked you that would be kicking you while your down. Since you disagreed with me; and indeed you along with numerous other posters demanded I prove my point … I proved my point (I just did what you guys asked me to do).
If Pope Alexander thought he was exercising infallibility, and if you believe that you can convince Catholics of that fact, then by all means do so. That certainly would be an important historical fact. (Note: Speaking for myself, even if I became convinced that Pope Alexander thought he was exercising infallibility, I would not leave Christianity, nor would I even leave the RCC; but my understanding of infallibility would be significantly different than it is.) But don’t think that your noble purpose justifies your scornfulness.
 
For instance does it make sense that a god who manifested himself in such profound ways to the ancients suddenly disappeared from the world stage? Is it a coincidence that claims of supernatural manifestations of divine power have become exceedingly rare; just as mankind began quantifying the natural world (and all its phenomena) through the prism of science?
He has not disappeared. I see His works every day. The closer I choose to get to Him, the more I notice His divine presence. :extrahappy:

Somewhere, somehow, Someone created the “sparks” for “everything” out of “nothing.” I call Him God.

Science has no basis in “nothing.” Science depends on “something.” This something was created by God out of nothing.
 
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