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humble_in_doubt
Guest
of course I’m citing St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine … not John Calvin. So my response is huh?
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guanophore
Guest
There are so many errors in this post, it is hard to know where to begin. First of all, Catholicism is not “Roman”. Second, Catholics certainly CAN know that they have eternal life. Although we cannot know that we will remain in a state of grace until death, there are countless opportunties to enter and remain in a state of grace daily. Eternal life is intended to begin right now, not just after death. Each time we participate in Mass we participate in the eternal life purchased for us by Christ on the Cross.
Catholicism is not a “works based religion”.
Faith based on the bible will not save anyone. Only the blood of Christ can save, and has been saving people without a bible for 2000 years. This is an example of bibliolatry, replacing Christ with the Bible. The Bible is not the Source of the Christian faith, Jesus is.
Faith is never alone, it is always accompanied by hope and love.
Something compels you to continue to bring calumny against the Bride of Christ by posting these misleading statements. I wonder what that is?
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josie_L
Guest
But Francis, Calvin did not believe in free will. And secondly, although faith demarcates the people of God (can you please capitalize the “G” you use to do so before) it is not sufficient enough to save us (we need baptism too). I can have therefore faith in God (his word) but it is dead and useless if I am not righteous. Look at the Pharisees and the Saduccees of Jesus’s time.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
I read the essay on TULIP (from the Catholic perspective) & I was impressed quite frankly. It’s intellectually honest & heck everyone here should read it. It acknowledges that Aquinas and Calvin were in virtual harmony on predestination. Everything from unconditional election to irresistible grace was taught by Augustine and then Aquinas.
The only real apparent disagreement is in the P of TULIP (or perseverance of the saints). However, even the disagreement here is a matter of obscure nuance (and frankly I’m not sure if in this area the author of the essay described the Calvinist view exactly right).
Perseverance of the saints cannot be compared to OSAS (or once saved always saved). Under OSAS I would still be considered saved, but under the soteriology of Calvin my rejection of faith is witness of my rebrobation (unless I come back to Christ later in life and die in a “state of grace”). All Calvin is saying is the elect will persevere (how can the elect not persevere?). For the most part reformed protestants will never say we can know the identity of the elect (this is a point the article misses). They will say if you have a sincere faith you can have confidence in your status with god (but you must still remain always diligent in your faith).
Frankly differences between Catholics and confessional protestants (i.e. Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed Christians, etc.) have diminished considerably over time. For instance the RCC and Lutheran churches signed a joint declaration on justification in 2000. The differences now, practically speaking, focus on the use of icons in worship, saintly and Marian veneration, etc. Even very Catholic doctrines like real presence and baptismal grace find a warm reception among many protestants (with the exception of groups like Pentecostals and Baptists). Some might be surprised to learn neither Calvin or Luther had a problem with perpetual virginity (however, they did have a problem with the idea of Mary as a co-redeemer and venerating saints).
Anyways … good article, thanks!
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
wrong … he fully affirmed human free will. Moreover, everything you say here is true, but Calvin wouldn’t disagree. However, Calvin would say the righteousness of the Christian is from god, not from ourselves (as humans are incapable of godly righteousness and holiness). I’m not even sure the RCC would disagree with this concept (it’s just that many lay Catholics don’t seem to understand theology well, at least in my experience).
Here’s a link that PRmerger provided:
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
Also, once again here’s a link to a newadvent.org article on Aquinas’ view on predestination:
newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm
If you’re interested, here’s a link to a pretty good article on Calvin’s view of predestination:
fordham.edu/halsall/mod/calvin-predest.html
All Catholic or credible non-biased sources. Happy reading Josie
G
guanophore
Guest
You are separating baptism from faith, and this is an error. Baptism cannot be given apart from a profession of faith. Baptism seals us in the HS with the circumcision made without hands. This is a supernatural act that occurs by grace, through faith. It seems important for you, for some reason, to deny the actions of the HS in baptism. I can only surmise that you must do this to deny the sacramental nature of the church.
The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, moon. Your statements seem to indicate a gross lack of understanding about the nature of baptism.
Rom 6:2-4
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Baptism transfers us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. We are joined with Him in His death and resurrection.
Gal 3:27
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
We do not put Christ upon ourselves. When we enter the waters of baptism with faith, the HS clothes us in His grace.
1 Cor 6:15
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?
Eph 4:30-31
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
God seals us in baptism, and we are made members of His One Body, the Church.
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PRmerger
Guest
J
josie_L
Guest
Well, Francis I’m confused why is it that every article I’ve read about Calvin claims he only believed in a sin-enslaved will (total depravity)?wrong … he fully affirmed human free will. Moreover, everything you say here is true, but Calvin wouldn’t disagree. However, Calvin would say the righteousness of the Christian is from god, not from ourselves (as humans are incapable of godly righteousness and holiness). I’m not even sure the RCC would disagree with this concept (it’s just that many lay Catholics don’t seem to understand theology well, at least in my experience).
Here’s a link that PRmerger provided:
catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
Also, once again here’s a link to a newadvent.org article on Aquinas’ view on predestination:
newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm
If you’re interested, here’s a link to a pretty good article on Calvin’s view of predestination:
fordham.edu/halsall/mod/calvin-predest.html
All Catholic or credible non-biased sources. Happy reading Josie
The doctrine of total depravity (also called “total inability”) asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term “total” in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)
This is completely different from the view held by the Church that states we were wounded by original sin but still capable of doing good. Weren’t there any good people before Christ (Noah for example)?
I will read those articles Francis, thank you.
S
SHW
Guest
Yes, I acknowledge that God planned (foreordained) (cf. 1 Peter 1:17-21) to send Christ because of His foreknowledge that Adam would disobey His command and lose salvation for himself and all his progeny. And since God made mankind in His image and likeness and desired for mankind to spend eternity in heaven with Him, He needed to have a way that this eternal fellowship could still be accomplished (the death of His own Son was needed in order to atone for Adam’s sin) in spite of the first man’s free will choice. God is Love and God is Mercy and God is Justice. God loves all His creation. He does not desire for it to be destroyed.
Wisdom 1:13
For God made not death, neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.
Why did He have the “fish” swallow Jonah? This I cannot answer. Perhaps He desired to have Jonah rethink his disobedience and give him another chance to comply. This was all done according to His mercy and grace and justice which we cannot fully comprehend. However, Jonah could still have refused and been defiant until death; it was his choice.
Much is “prefigured” in Scripture. It teaches us by “repetition” and prepares us for the “MAJOR” event. Salvation is not possible for anyone at all without the mercy of God. It is true that God extends more mercy to some over others, but since He is Love, and Justice, and Mercy, He extends enough mercy to each person in order for them to be saved since their salvation is His own desire. He subjects His own desire for their salvation to their own free will actions by His Sovereign will. To some persons He extends more grace, yet each person receives enough grace to be saved. Pharaoh could have been saved also. Attributing the “hardening of Pharaoh’s heart” to God is a Semitic manner of speaking. It was actually God’s favor towards the Israelites which caused jealousy in Pharaoh’s heart and he chose to harden his own heart. So, God’s mercy towards Israel hardened Pharaoh’s jealous heart against the Israelites. It was Pharaoh’s own jealousy, not God, which hardened his heart.
Our eternal salvation first depends solely on the mercy and grace of God, not on any of our own actions. None of us deserves His mercy since we all inherited original sin. He sent His Son to redeem all mankind from original sin. However, He chose to predestine only those persons to eternal life whom He knew would choose to use their own free wills to obey Him and do His will. Redemption and predestination are two different things.
“God gets what He wants” because He knew what the consequences would be if He gave people free will choice and He knew this before He gave it to them. He knew that once He gave people free will that some of them would then reject Him. This does not mean that His original “desire for all men to be saved” was not a worthy desire. It just means that if you give one thing as a free gift, another thing cannot always also be given. For instance, if you marry one person, then by default, you cannot morally marry another at the same time. When free will is given as a gift, this gift can be misused and it will be misused since some persons will not choose the good when given “choice.”
to be continued…
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SemperReformada
Guest
Does your church teach that people by their own faculties and only their own faculties are morally able to choose to follow God? If so, can you quote a council or paragraph from the CCC that substantiates this?
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SHW
Guest
Continued:
Not everyone will be saved. Only those who know God and choose to obey God will be saved. Free will is never infringed upon when it concerns salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Jesus only prayed for those the Father gave Him because it would be fruitless to pray for those whom God already knew by His foreknowledge would not be saved due to their rejection of salvation by their own free will choices. God only gave Jesus those whom He foreknew could never be lost. This is why when they get placed into the Father’s hand, they cannot ever be snatched out of His hand. They never get into His hand in the first place unless they are going to be saved in the end. Since God is all-knowing, this is not a difficult thing for Him to do.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
What causes us to perish?
2 Peter 2:12
But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
We perish because of our own corruption. We do not perish because God “predestined” us to corruption. “Predestined” is used only in a positive manner in Scripture. He forces no one to be saved against his/her own will and He prevents no one from being saved against his/her own will. God is Love and He desires our eternal fellowship with Him in heaven.
Not everyone will be saved. Only those who know God and choose to obey God will be saved. Free will is never infringed upon when it concerns salvation.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
Hebrews 5:9
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
His elect are determined according to His foreknowledge.
1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Jesus only prayed for those the Father gave Him because it would be fruitless to pray for those whom God already knew by His foreknowledge would not be saved due to their rejection of salvation by their own free will choices. God only gave Jesus those whom He foreknew could never be lost. This is why when they get placed into the Father’s hand, they cannot ever be snatched out of His hand. They never get into His hand in the first place unless they are going to be saved in the end. Since God is all-knowing, this is not a difficult thing for Him to do.
I disagree. God does not simply mean “all types” of people without exclusion. He truly is not willing that “any” of us should perish. He desires that we “all” repent and be saved.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
What causes us to perish?
2 Peter 2:12
But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
We perish because of our own corruption. We do not perish because God “predestined” us to corruption. “Predestined” is used only in a positive manner in Scripture. He forces no one to be saved against his/her own will and He prevents no one from being saved against his/her own will. God is Love and He desires our eternal fellowship with Him in heaven.
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josie_L
Guest
No it doesn’t.
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SemperReformada
Guest
If that’s the case, and I think you are correct, you as a Catholic shouldn’t have much problem with total depravity or maybe better stated as you pointed out as total inability.
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josie_L
Guest
405 Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.
406 The Church’s teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine’s reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam’s fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529)296 and at the Council of Trent (1546).297
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm
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Bill_Pick
Guest
May God bless Memaw he needs all the help he/she can get.
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.
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guanophore
Guest
The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, moon. This is taught all over the world in the Catholic Church, and is from the Apostles, not “Rome”. Rome became a doctrinal center for the faith because of the teaching of the Apostles that occurred there.
You ask a good question, though, about why Catholics do not presume to know our eternal fate.
Catholics do not espouse OSAS or assume we are saved (called the sin of presumption) because we can’t know everything, even about ourselves.
1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
There are parts of the human heart that are hidden from us, yet are known to God. It is from these parts of the human heart, hidden in darkness, that apostasy can come. We do not know if we will persist until the end:
Phil 3:13-16
13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.
The Apostles taught that a “mature” attitude is to focus on our present moment, and leave the judgement to God.
S
SemperReformada
Guest
What am I supposed to understand from all of the above?
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PRmerger
Guest
That Catholics do not use the term “total depravity”. Rather, because of the fall of Adam, man cannot do anything out of supernatural love unless God gives him special grace to do so.
S
SemperReformada
Guest
I agree with you.
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, then, you’re one step closer to coming Home!
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