Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

[bjryman]

Some very good points here to think about.

I am an agnostic that reads about the man Jesus frequently. He had a profound impact on those who met him, and later some of them wrote down sayings attributed to him. These sayings in many places have values and truths in them that are still relevant today, and will likely stand the test of time for thousands of more years. You may perhaps consider the “core story” to be different from what I consider it to be, but yes, overly confident self-righteousness can be the downfall of very valid persons and groups.

Thanks for the comments. You articulate in another manner, the point I try to make when I use the term “core story”. Personal acceptance of a humble, forgiving, search for a pathway to holiness, translates in the a positive set of morals and actions in a civil society, if we let them. Argue if you will about the specifics of the gospels, or the actual rules of the Catholic Church, or any other…but don’t forget the underlying message is of acceptance, forgiveness, love, hope, charity in helping others. That’s my point for sure.

Now, since this is a Catholic Answers forum, of course we get into the minutiae of it all. I just really get uncomfortable when every detail is sometimes presented with such certitude. Informed faith is one thing…blind, unyielding “faith” is quite another

Peace
bruce

 

[onenow1]

You just keep avoiding the specific point. I claimed that the only Commandment addressing sexuality was the one about adultery. Then you latched on to the first commandment to claim that it addresses all sexual mores. Which it does not. Not even the CC claims what you do about the first Commandment and sexual behaviors.

I am connecting God to all ten commands,and all scripture; that seems to be a stumbling block for you. So once again I repeat and more clearly I hope, Jesus {God} does not exist without the #1 command and much more then that morality fails as is evident in our world today.

God Bless


There is no religious debate without God !

 

[SolaFide1611]

The Catholic Church teaches that artificial contraception (pill, condom, IUD, etc) is a mortal sin.

How are you able to accept condom use, etc? Do you not see it as the seed that led to a bad tree (sexual revolution, huge pornography industry, etc)???

I can not comprehend how Protestants have such varied views on artificial contraception. This might be because I have for most of my Christian life been a Catholic.

You don’t speak for all of us. I think if you don’t want a baby, don’t have sex.

However, I think if you are married, using a condom (not a pill or anything that messes with God-given hormones) is a matter of Christian liberty if you don’t want anymore kids.

God Bless,
Sola Fide 1611

 

[larkin31]

I am connecting God to all ten commands,and all scripture; that seems to be a stumbling block for you. So once again I repeat and more clearly I hope, Jesus {God} does not exist without the #1 command and much more then that morality fails as is evident in our world today.

God Bless


There is no religious debate without God !

That is no “stumbling block” to me. I merely stated that only one commandment addresses sexual mores. That is still true despite the fact that God wrote all ten. You might as well claim that the first Commandment addresses usury, since in different places God addresses the first commandment and later addresses usury. After all, it’s the same author!!! Your argument is not a “stumbling block” to me. It is simply erroneous and unpersuasive (and likely un-Catholic).

 

[onenow1]

That is no “stumbling block” to me. I merely stated that only one commandment addresses sexual mores. That is still true despite the fact that God wrote all ten. You might as well claim that the first Commandment addresses usury, since in different places God addresses the first commandment and later addresses usury. After all, it’s the same author!!! Your argument is not a “stumbling block” to me. It is simply erroneous and unpersuasive (and likely un-Catholic).

God wrote all ten with one word,> Jesus < affirmed this when He said to love God with your whole self, and a second like it love your neighbor, all the commandments are summed up in Jesus’s command to love your neighbor, even as He has loved us. Contraception places a impediment{ restricts}so if we are to love our neighbor with agape love as commanded, {wide open for all mankind}, then contraception is not necessarily sexual in nature is it ?
However between a married couple uses contraception the possibility of life proposed by God in the sexual act, impedes a possibility of life,so it indeed is an abomination to God, the ultimate creator,as has been shown with Onan.

By the way coveting your neighbors wife,#9 certainly has sexual overtones, and is much connected to adultry.#6 I would also remind you numbering the commandments, is a human construct, as is the whole of scripture.

Here’s Jesus words :Matthew 22

35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the great and first commandment.
39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

God Bless

 

[larkin31]

God wrote all ten with one word,> Jesus < affirmed this when He said to love God with your whole self, and a second like it love your neighbor, all the commandments are summed up in Jesus’s command to love your neighbor, even as He has loved us. Contraception places a impediment{ restricts}so if we are to love our neighbor with agape love as commanded, {wide open for all mankind}, then contraception is not necessarily sexual in nature is it ?
However between a married couple uses contraception the possibility of life proposed by God in the sexual act, impedes a possibility of life,so it indeed is an abomination to God, the ultimate creator,as has been shown with Onan.

By the way coveting your neighbors wife,#9 certainly has sexual overtones, and is much connected to adultry.#6 I would also remind you numbering the commandments, is a human construct, as is the whole of scripture.

Here’s Jesus words :Matthew 22

35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the great and first commandment.
39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

God Bless

Onan was punished for disobedience, as were Adam and Eve. Not for infertile sex.

 

[onenow1]

Onan was punished for disobedience, as were Adam and Eve. Not for infertile sex.

Exactly! disobedience for? ! Jesus first command to them be fruitful and multiply, not be unfruitful and subtract. By the way infertility is accomplished by either my will, or if you believe in God, His will.> Our will should be God’s will not to reject His gift or purpose ! Amen !

God Bless

 

[larkin31]

Exactly! disobedience for? ! Jesus first command to them be fruitful and multiply, not be unfruitful and subtract. By the way infertility is accomplished by either my will, or if you believe in God, His will.> Our will should be God’s will not to reject His gift or purpose ! Amen !

God Bless

The fruitful and multiply exhortation is NOT a requirement that sex never be closed to reproduction. It just means go have kids. And it is an exhortation, not a moral commandment.

 

[Madaglan]

Can we abort teenagers at will?

I’ll have to think more about Hormonicide.

 

[onenow1]

The fruitful and multiply exhortation is NOT a requirement that sex never be closed to reproduction…

Observing the Natural Law: From Humanae Vitae.

1. The sexual activity, in which husband and wife are intimately and chastely united with one another, through which human life is transmitted, is, as the recent Council recalled, "noble and worthy.’’ (11) It does not, moreover, cease to be legitimate even when, for reasons independent of their will, it is foreseen to be infertile. For its natural adaptation to the expression and strengthening of the union of husband and wife is not thereby suppressed. The fact is, as experience shows, that new life is not the result of each and every act of sexual intercourse. God has wisely ordered laws of nature and the incidence of fertility in such a way that successive births are already naturally spaced through the inherent operation of these laws. The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. (12)

Indeed you are right about it being an exhortation and not a requirement as stated ! I need to ask though ,if you spoke to God, and he suggested, you be fruitful and multiply would you say God, I’ll think about it ?

Random House Dictionary copywright 1967.

Suggest= To mention or introduce for { an idea,proposition,plan etc.} for consideration or possible action.

Exhortation= Urgent advice or recomendation,a urging pleading.

God Bless

 

[larkin31]

Observing the Natural Law: From Humanae Vitae.

1. The sexual activity, in which husband and wife are intimately and chastely united with one another, through which human life is transmitted, is, as the recent Council recalled, "noble and worthy.’’ (11) It does not, moreover, cease to be legitimate even when, for reasons independent of their will, it is foreseen to be infertile. For its natural adaptation to the expression and strengthening of the union of husband and wife is not thereby suppressed. The fact is, as experience shows, that new life is not the result of each and every act of sexual intercourse. God has wisely ordered laws of nature and the incidence of fertility in such a way that successive births are already naturally spaced through the inherent operation of these laws. The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. (12)

Indeed you are right about it being an exhortation and not a requirement as stated ! I need to ask though ,if you spoke to God, and he suggested, you be fruitful and multiply would you say God, I’ll think about it ?

Random House Dictionary copywright 1967.

Suggest= To mention or introduce for { an idea,proposition,plan etc.} for consideration or possible action.

Exhortation= Urgent advice or recomendation,a urging pleading.

God Bless

Yep. I tend to be independent in my thinking. I would assume that the same God that gave me my mind to examine the condition of the world around me (are there plenty of people? Am I in a location conducive to the rising of children?), the condition of my wife (is she healthy? Is she also willing? Is she psychologically ready and able?), the condition of my family (how many children do I already have and how large is my household?) would also fully grant me the opportunity to exercise my sound judgment, with the base position being the exhortation to be fruitful and to multiply (an exhortation given to the first and only two humans in the Garden, and perhaps anywhere on the planet).

 

[onenow1]

Yep. I tend to be independent in my thinking. I would assume that the same God that gave me my mind to examine the condition of the world around me (are there plenty of people? Am I in a location conducive to the rising of children?), the condition of my wife (is she healthy? Is she also willing? Is she psychologically ready and able?), the condition of my family (how many children do I already have and how large is my household?) would also fully grant me the opportunity to exercise my sound judgment, with the base position being the exhortation to be fruitful and to multiply (an exhortation given to the first and only two humans in the Garden, and perhaps anywhere on the planet).

When you enter into marriage what is your motive, shouldn’t psychological considerations be determined before marriage ?

Opinion : Are we willing to do what we are required to do in marriage,for the sake of the other spouse such as abstinence, a permanent bonding in Love ?

{Genesis 2:23 Then the man said, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.

In Matthew 19:4-5, Jesus reaffirms this: “He answered, ‘Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one’?”

Birth control period.

The voluntary prevention of conception through arrested coition or the use of contraceptives, for the purpose of limiting the number of offspring. As commonly used the term means the absolute prevention of pregnancy. While the Catholic Church does not urge married persons to beget the largest possible number of children, and does not sanction the intemperate use of marriage, she does condemn each deliberate act of birth control as intrinsically evil (S.Off., 21 May 1851; 19 April 1853; S.Pren., 13 November 1901). In cases of ill health or poverty she insists on marital abstinence. The Catholic doctrine that birth control is essentially wrong, is not a mere disciplinary measure, like the law of clerical celibacy, which can be abrogated or modified by the Church. It is a definition of the law of God, which no power, not even the Church itself, can abrogate or contravene. In the Divine plan the primary purpose of the marital act is the procreation of offspring, and its secondary purposes are the cementing of conjugal love and the allaying of concupiscence. As birth control defeats the primary purpose of the marriage relation, it is opposed to the Divine Will, which the Church must sustain. This teaching is reinforced by other weighty considerations, e.g., birth control undermines the respect of husband for wife, and vice versa, and thereby increases unhappiness among married people and the consequent number of divorces. The essential evil of birth control, however, consists in frustrating the primary purpose of marriage, the propagation of the species.

:christmastree1:

 

[larkin31]

When you enter into marriage what is your motive, shouldn’t psychological considerations be determined before marriage ?

Opinion : **Are we willing to do what we are required to do in marriage,**for the sake of the other spouse such as abstinence, a permanent bonding in Love ?

There is no requirement anywhere through history nor in the Bible that ALL sex be procreative, nor that parents ALWAYS be having children. That is neither the message in “be fruitful and multiply” nor is it the message in the story of Onan.

Can abstinence be a loving and essential part of a marriage at times? Sure. So can control of reproduction through NFP and through other methods of birth control.

 

[onenow1]

There is no requirement anywhere through history nor in the Bible that ALL sex be procreative, nor that parents ALWAYS be having children. That is neither the message in “be fruitful and multiply” nor is it the message in the story of Onan.

Can abstinence be a loving and essential part of a marriage at times? Sure. So can control of reproduction through NFP and through other methods of birth control.

NFP is acceptable in certain circumstances not all.

Did you read this part at all.>> While the Catholic Church does not urge married persons to beget the largest possible number of children, and does not sanction the intemperate use of marriage, she does condemn each deliberate act of birth control as intrinsically evil (S.Off., 21 May 1851; 19 April 1853; S.Pren., 13 November 1901). In cases of ill health or poverty she insists on marital abstinence.

Reason and faith go together like hand and glove but faith in God will always trump reason which comes from God.

Simply put sex is not the reason for God’s creation of man, procreation is, sexual pleasure is the impetus for it, a gift not to be abused.

Peace

 

[TracyR]

As an almost former Protestant what you need to remember is that the Protestant faith is really a faith of " Me". All of the rules are different for each faith that is created. There are no steadfast rule like there is within the Catholic faith. Only rules that suit the person who created the faith( Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evengelical, Penecostal, Luthern ,Episcopalian, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, etc… the list goes on and on).

You really can’t defend something for which there are no rules.

My opinion is that its wrong. Period. You don’t want children, don’t have nookie.
Birth control was made for no accountiblity. Do what you want and there is no consequence. But then this is cultural as well. Our culture is the kind where you can do what you want when you want and have little to no consequences for your actions.

ABC is not the same as taking medicine. It does not affect the quality of your life nor does it cause you to live longer. What it does do takes away accountability.
All life is sacred , even when its not planned when you want it to happen. I have four girls, did not take any birth control and they are nicely spaced out at the age of 12(will be 13 next month), 11, 7 and 4. My last one was a surprise in both timing and with health problems. But she has been my greatest teacher in how now matter what God gives you in life that He gives you the strength to get through it all.

There just is no reason for it. But as long as our culture is in the Me, Myself and I category then it will continue.

 

[onenow1]

As an almost former Protestant what you need to remember is that the Protestant faith is really a faith of " Me". All of the rules are different for each faith that is created. There are no steadfast rule like there is within the Catholic faith. Only rules that suit the person who created the faith( Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evengelical, Penecostal, Luthern ,Episcopalian, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, etc… the list goes on and on).

You really can’t defend something for which there are no rules.

My opinion is that its wrong. Period. You don’t want children, don’t have nookie.
Birth control was made for no accountiblity. Do what you want and there is no consequence. But then this is cultural as well. Our culture is the kind where you can do what you want when you want and have little to no consequences for your actions.

ABC is not the same as taking medicine. It does not affect the quality of your life nor does it cause you to live longer. What it does do takes away accountability.
All life is sacred , even when its not planned when you want it to happen. I have four girls, did not take any birth control and they are nicely spaced out at the age of 12(will be 13 next month), 11, 7 and 4. My last one was a surprise in both timing and with health problems. But she has been my greatest teacher in how now matter what God gives you in life that He gives you the strength to get through it all.

There just is no reason for it. But as long as our culture is in the Me, Myself and I category then it will continue.

Welcome Tracy ! A little common sense is what our entire culture of I, I, I, I, needs.

Again welcome and God Bless !

 

[larkin31]

NFP is acceptable in certain circumstances not all.

Did you read this part at all.>> While the Catholic Church does not urge married persons to beget the largest possible number of children, and does not sanction the intemperate use of marriage, she does condemn each deliberate act of birth control as intrinsically evil (S.Off., 21 May 1851; 19 April 1853; S.Pren., 13 November 1901). In cases of ill health or poverty she insists on marital abstinence.

Reason and faith go together like hand and glove but faith in God will always trump reason which comes from God.

Simply put sex is not the reason for God’s creation of man, procreation is, sexual pleasure is the impetus for it, a gift not to be abused.

Peace

Why would you think that I did not read the dogma you copied? Of course I did. I keep disagreeing with it, as might happen on a thread asking Protestants to defend the use of artificial contraception.

 

[larkin31]

As an almost former Protestant what you need to remember is that the Protestant faith is really a faith of " Me".

That’s baloney.

All of the rules are different for each faith that is created. There are no steadfast rule like there is within the Catholic faith. Only rules that suit the person who created the faith

The “person”…??

( Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evengelical, Penecostal, Luthern ,Episcopalian, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, etc… the list goes on and on).

You really can’t defend something for which there are no rules.

All of those sects that you quote have “rules.” You are printing here nothing but prejudice.

My opinion is that its wrong. Period. You don’t want children, don’t have nookie.
Birth control was made for no accountiblity. Do what you want and there is no consequence. But then this is cultural as well. Our culture is the kind where you can do what you want when you want and have little to no consequences for your actions.

Is this true for your friends? Your siblings? Your children? Your fellow church goers? Your self? Just who, more specifically, are you disparaging?

ABC is not the same as taking medicine. It does not affect the quality of your life nor does it cause you to live longer. What it does do takes away accountability.
All life is sacred , even when its not planned when you want it to happen. I have four girls, did not take any birth control and they are nicely spaced out at the age of 12(will be 13 next month), 11, 7 and 4. My last one was a surprise in both timing and with health problems. But she has been my greatest teacher in how now matter what God gives you in life that He gives you the strength to get through it all.

I have a family, too, and I also feel blessed.

 

[benedictus2]

As an almost former Protestant what you need to remember is that the Protestant faith is really a faith of " Me".

Very well said!

Which is not surprising if this quote attributed to Martin Luther is correct.

"I am more afraid of my own heart than of the pope and all his cardinals. I have within me the great pope, Self. "

 

[benedictus2]

That’s baloney.

No it is not. It’s a fact proven by the ever splintering protestant denominations.