Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

[larkin31]

Where did my post go?

 

[inocente]

As an almost former Protestant what you need to remember is that the Protestant faith is really a faith of " Me".

I’m interested to hear how anyone can be so sure my faith isn’t centered on God when we’ve never met but guess we must leave that aside along with Matthew 7:1-6 as it’s off-topic.

 

[BlueShadow123]

Hormonal contraceptions are definitely debatable because of what they do to your body.

But things like condoms, what is wrong with that exactly? Whats wrong with a married couple using contraception between them? If they don’t want to have kids, why not just use a condom? What is wrong with that? I do not see anything wrong with that. If you don’t want kids, be smart. If you don’t want to follow NFP or use hormonal contraception use a condom.

I don’t know what protestants have to say about it though. I think they are mostly for it, but some aren’t.

 

[rev_kevin]

Hormonal contraceptions are definitely debatable because of what they do to your body.

But things like condoms, what is wrong with that exactly? Whats wrong with a married couple using contraception between them? If they don’t want to have kids, why not just use a condom? What is wrong with that? I do not see anything wrong with that. If you don’t want kids, be smart. If you don’t want to follow NFP or use hormonal contraception use a condom.

I don’t know what protestants have to say about it though. I think they are mostly for it, but some aren’t.

I have to agree with you.

 

[larkin31]

As an almost former Protestant what you need to remember is that the Protestant faith is really a faith of " Me".

This claim, and therefore all that follows it about Protestantism, is false. Protestants are as focused on God and others as Catholics are.

 

[benedictus2]

So, two people are married. They want to have a family.
They have a family. They now have a couple of kids, and cannot support anymore.
And they do not want that to mean no sex ever again, they want to continue to enjoy that intimacy. And they haven’t exactly taken the purpose out of sex… Because they have three kids.

I can understand a lot of the Catholic stance on birth control, but in other ways…
In other ways, I do not get it at all, and it’s one of the stances I disagree with you guys on.
I mean, the pill I’m a little eeehhhhh on, but not condoms, when used in this situation.

I mean, I UNDERSTAND the Catholic stance when people are just using it to take the possibility of reproducing out the equation entirely… But I don’t understand it in situations like these.

Aaaaaaaand apparently I’m going to hell for this belief. Lovely.

It boils down to this: Who has the right to WILL anyone to life? You or God?

If you, then of course you will reason in this manner, but if God?

Well then, proceed with the intimacy and leave the WILLING OF SOULS INTO LIFE to God. If God decides to give you children, He will also give you the necessary grace to cope with them.

One must remember that there are couples who try as hard as they can and still fail to conceive.

We have bought so much into the current corrupt societies thinking that somehow we decide on everything even life and death.

Every act of intimacy must be open to life because that is what it was made for.

 

[benedictus2]

Hormonal contraceptions are definitely debatable because of what they do to your body.

So therefore the only reason to avoid a method of contraception is what it will do to your body. So selfishness once more is the only reason one will avoid an intrinsically evil act? I am sure you will ask me why I say it is an intrinsically evil act.

But things like condoms, what is wrong with that exactly? Whats wrong with a married couple using contraception between them?

How about because God created sex primarily for procreation. Pleasure is only secondary.

When he gave the commandment he did not say go and copulate so that you may feel pleasure and indulge it whenever you feel like. He said go and multiply.

Do you realize that sex is the manner by which God creates eternal souls? That this is the manner by which we mere mortals participate in the creative act of the Creator?

If they don’t want to have kids, why not just use a condom? What is wrong with that? I do not see anything wrong with that.

If they don’t want to have kids then abstain. If one can’t abstain then leave the rest to God.

It seems to me that you do not trust God enough to entrust your sexual life to Him.

If you don’t want kids, be smart.

How does avoiding kids by using condoms equate to intelligence? Have you not heard that the love of God is the beginning of wisdom? Your prescription sounds like the beginning of godlessness to me.

If you don’t want to follow NFP or use hormonal contraception use a condom.

Aaah yes, have the pleasure but not the consequence. Sounds like sexual bulimia to me.

Your advise sounded like if you do not want to follow NFP follow the devil.

 

[benedictus2]

This claim, and therefore all that follows it about Protestantism, is false. Protestants are as focused on God and others as Catholics are.

Protestants’ focuson God is according to the THEIR OWN TERMS.

 

[inocente]

Protestants’ focuson God is according to the THEIR OWN TERMS.

Would you like to start a thread so we can debate your opinion, whether it evidentially relates to all hundreds of millions fellow Christians, any potential conflicts with the teaching of the RCC and so on?

 

[O.S.Luke]

As an almost former Protestant what you need to remember is that the Protestant faith is really a faith of " Me". All of the rules are different for each faith that is created. There are no steadfast rule like there is within the Catholic faith. Only rules that suit the person who created the faith( Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evengelical, Penecostal, Luthern ,Episcopalian, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, etc… the list goes on and on).

Ridiculous. And bigoted. I would think someone of the Catholic faith would be above this, and that fellow Catholics would be outraged at such a statement being made on a Catholic forum.

 

[benedictus2]

Would you like to start a thread so we can debate your opinion, whether it evidentially relates to all hundreds of millions fellow Christians, any potential conflicts with the teaching of the RCC and so on?

I rarely start threads. But if you start one on this I would really love to participate in the discussion.

Just give me the link.

 

[benedictus2]

Ridiculous. And bigoted. I would think someone of the Catholic faith would be above this, and that fellow Catholics would be outraged at such a statement being made on a Catholic forum.

I tend to agree with Tracy. And this is verified by the testimonies by a lot of protestants who have converted to Catholicism.

As a matter of fact, one even remarked that the Solas boil down to Sola Ego. And he knows of what he speaks.

I don’t think Tracy made that statement to create a fuss. It is probably something that she came to a realization of in just the same as the others have.

And I think we can back up that statement with well reasoned arguments.

 

[larkin31]

Ridiculous. And bigoted. I would think someone of the Catholic faith would be above this, and that fellow Catholics would be outraged at such a statement being made on a Catholic forum.

indeed

But some Catholics see heterodoxy as “me-doxy” and like to take advantage of an opportunity to smear Protestantism. Often, it results in the closing of threads. Maybe this thread is showing signs of nearing its end-times.

 

[TracyR]

This claim, and therefore all that follows it about Protestantism, is false. Protestants are as focused on God and others as Catholics are.

Nope, its not false. If that were the case then why are there so many different religions? Why are we all not still Catholic? If all these other faiths weren’t based on me, myself and I then we’d all still be Catholic now wouldn’t we?
If you study history you will see there was only ONE Christian church throughtout time and that was the Catholic church. That is until the Protestant Reformation.

I never said that Protestants aren’t focused on God. But the rules are the rules of whomever created each of the Protestant faiths. It has gone from the Catholic faith which has continued to keep its stance on many things for 2,000 yrs to all the Protestant faiths ( Luthern, Epsicopalian, Methodist, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Presybertarian, Pentecostal, Assemblies of God, Christian Missionary Alliance, Jehovah’s Witness, and all the other Protestant faiths in between.) whom all have their own rules. Basically the ones that fit the agenda of the creator of the faith. If someone didn’t agree, well you go to the next chuch, or create your own.

There is one Holy Catholic church that holds onto the rules.And then the Protestant faiths and everything in between. Whomever is at the pulpit is whoever’s rules you follow. If you don’t agree with them then you find another church that first YOUR rules. How do I know that? Because I did this, and I’ve noticed this happening in our area as well.

So no, all that followed was not false. There is no real stance on birth control within the Protestant faith. If there is its from the preacher who preaches at the pulpit at that given time. Of course there is the stance of how abortion is evil. But nothing other than that. If there is a rule or a stance on using birth control for families within the Protestant church it isn’t being preached from the pulpit ,nor passed on to its memebers , nor held steadfast like it is with the Catholic faith. At least its that way where I live

That’s why there is no steadfast rule on birth control within the Protestant faith and why they don’t have to defend it.

 

[TracyR]

I tend to agree with Tracy. And this is verified by the testimonies by a lot of protestants who have converted to Catholicism.

As a matter of fact, one even remarked that the Solas boil down to Sola Ego. And he knows of what he speaks.

I don’t think Tracy made that statement to create a fuss. It is probably something that she came to a realization of in just the same as the others have.

And I think we can back up that statement with well reasoned arguments.

No, I did not say that to create any fuss and I’m not a bigot. I’ve always seen that there is some good in all faiths nor was it meant to downgrade a faith either.

It is a statement that I have finally learned to be true after belonging to the Protestant faith for the vast majority of life. I was only baptized in the Catholic faith but my mother changed faiths for whatever her reason was ( she is not alive for me to ask). So I spent most of my life from about age 10 until now (I am almost 35). Going from one church to another and being able to observe everyone and everything around me. Before we switched we barely attended Catholic church at all ever. Only attended two Catholic schools but jumped around from school to school growing up as a kid too.

I am glad to see I’m not the only person to observe what I have mentioned, and that its not something that I’ve percieved in my own mind.
This very thing was what turned my husband from his Presbyterian faith.

 

[larkin31]

Nope, its not false. If that were the case then why are there so many different religions? Why are we all not still Catholic? If all these other faiths weren’t based on me, myself and I then we’d all still be Catholic now wouldn’t we?

No. This was not at all the cuase of the great Schism.

If you study history you will see there was only ONE Christian church throughtout time and that was the Catholic church. That is until the Protestant Reformation.

I submit that it is you who needs to study the history of the reasons for the Reformation.

I never said that Protestants aren’t focused on God

You clearly suggested it by calling it a religion of “me, myself, and I.” At the least you should own up to the clear suggestions of your remarks. I find them uninformed and bigoted.

. But the rules are the rules of whomever created each of the Protestant faiths. It has gone from the Catholic faith which has continued to keep its stance on many things for 2,000 yrs to all the Protestant faiths ( Luthern, Epsicopalian, Methodist, Baptist, Southern Baptist, Presybertarian, Pentecostal, Assemblies of God, Christian Missionary Alliance, Jehovah’s Witness, and all the other Protestant faiths in between.) whom all have their own rules. Basically the ones that fit the agenda of the creator of the faith. If someone didn’t agree, well you go to the next chuch, or create your own.

I think that you need to remember that your church was also begun by Jews who no longer agreed with the Jewish hierarchy of their faith. All you really mean to do here is to say that Protestants are selfish because they broke off. Let me simply remind you that breaking off is NOT in itself selfish, unless you wish to also include Jesus and the apostles and Saul as “selfish” founders of a new form of faith.

There is one Holy Catholic church that holds onto the rules.And then the Protestant faiths and everything in between. Whomever is at the pulpit is whoever’s rules you follow

I have never read such a generalization about Protestantism before. It is certainly not true of the Protestant church and tradition in which I was raised (I am a minister’s son and grew up in a parsonage).

That’s why there is no steadfast rule on birth control within the Protestant faith and why they don’t have to defend it.

No. This is NOT why there is no universal Protestant approach to ABC. And who says that Protestants don’t “defend” their position? I have been defending it here several times, I have looked up more than one Protestant position on birth control, and others here–including some Catholics–have argued that prohibition of ABC is hypocritical/wrong.

 

[BlueShadow123]

So therefore the only reason to avoid a method of contraception is what it will do to your body. So selfishness once more is the only reason one will avoid an intrinsically evil act? I am sure you will ask me why I say it is an intrinsically evil act.
How about because God created sex primarily for procreation. Pleasure is only secondary.

When he gave the commandment he did not say go and copulate so that you may feel pleasure and indulge it whenever you feel like. He said go and multiply.

Do you realize that sex is the manner by which God creates eternal souls? That this is the manner by which we mere mortals participate in the creative act of the Creator?
If they don’t want to have kids then abstain. If one can’t abstain then leave the rest to God.

It seems to me that you do not trust God enough to entrust your sexual life to Him.
How does avoiding kids by using condoms equate to intelligence? Have you not heard that the love of God is the beginning of wisdom? Your prescription sounds like the beginning of godlessness to me.
Aaah yes, have the pleasure but not the consequence. Sounds like sexual bulimia to me.

Your advise sounded like if you do not want to follow NFP follow the devil.

Your thought process is so messed up I don’t even know where to begin. First I’ll start by saying, quit making false assumptions about me, and my life and my post, because nothing I said is evil. If you don’t want kids and are going to have sex, using protection is called ‘being smart’.

Obviously we have different views on this. You’re just going to have to accept that.

 

[TracyR]

No. This was not at all the cuase of the great Schism.

I submit that it is you who needs to study the history of the reasons for the Reformation.

You clearly suggested it by calling it a religion of “me, myself, and I.” At the least you should own up to the clear suggestions of your remarks. I find them uninformed and bigoted.

I think that you need to remember that your church was also begun by Jews who no longer agreed with the Jewish hierarchy of their faith. All you really mean to do here is to say that Protestants are selfish because they broke off. Let me simply remind you that breaking off is NOT in itself selfish, unless you wish to also include Jesus and the apostles and Saul as “selfish” founders of a new form of faith.

I have never read such a generalization about Protestantism before. It is certainly not true of the Protestant church and tradition in which I was raised (I am a minister’s son and grew up in a parsonage).

No. This is NOT why there is no universal Protestant approach to ABC. And who says that Protestants don’t “defend” their position? I have been defending it here several times, I have looked up more than one Protestant position on birth control, and others here–including some Catholics–have argued that prohibition of ABC is hypocritical/wrong.

Interesting coming from someone who claims they are a former Protestant( assuming you do not believe in its teachings anymore) and who is Agnostic. Hmmm.

I am NOT a bigot. That would mean I am intolerant of other’s opinion. I have not resisted anyone’s opinion. You may feel I have of your opinion but that is something you think and no one else has. I think I should turn the tables and call you one because you are so strung up on calling me a bigot that it is actually you who are resisting my opinion.

I grew up in the Protestant faith as well. I know what I’ve grown up to believe with the teachings of the various different types of churches I attended and its been confirmed on here that I am not the only Protestant that has come here with the same belief.

If it was so wonderful for you then why are you not still Protestant yourself? I am not here to start any argument. There is no such thing as an Agnostic Protestant so I’m assuming you are not Protestant. I did not come here to pick a fight.

There is NO rule in the Protestant faith that condems ABC. NONE.
So if you can go through all of the protestant faiths and get back and post on me the laws and rules of the faith condoning ABC please feel free to post them on here.
There maybe Protestants who do not believe in using ABC but that is of their own free will, such as the Quiverfull movement. But they are seen in the community as a bunch of wackos. The attitude is " Who would want more than one or two children? That’s just crazy!" That’s the attitude.

There is nothing in the Westminster Shorter Catechism that states anything about using or not using birth control.

Of course there are some that are Protestant and don’t believe in it. Its a form of personal preference. Not according to catechism or God’s law. I am one of them. I was a Catholic living in a Protestant world.

P.S. Don’t sit there and try and read into my words. I don’t care for it when my husband does that nor do I of you. I say what I mean and mean what I said. So no. I did not insinuate anything. I clearly stated myself. Me, myself and I is exactly what I meant. Protestant rules and laws are built on the person who created the faith.
I wasn’t challenging the fact that they didn’t believe in God. Nor did I state that it is selfish of others to start a faith. But now that you mention it , it does become selfish when it becomes further and further from the truth that Jesus taught, and man begins to create their own version of God’s law.

I also know my history and know very well that Martin Luther was not happy with what the church was doing during the time 16th Century. Martin Luther was a very hot headed guy and didn’t agree when the church began selling indulgences. So much so he wrote the 95 Theses in Latin so that the general public didn’t know ( because at that time only scholars could read Latin). If you read the 95 Theses ( like I have) his big beef was all about money. He never challenged the beliefs of Catholic teaching. He very much wanted to be and believed in the Catholic church itself. Just not what was going on with the higher ups so to speak. He stayed a Catholic until he finally got enough people in the chuch so angry with him that they actually shunned him because he was not willing to back down. Luther didn’t intend to start a church of any sort. He wanted them to stop selling indulgences and pardons. It was and is wrong. It was a not very good time for the church in that time peroid. There is a huge anti Catholic biase when it comes to what happened then. I remember being in a Baptist school being taught the Martin Luther did what he did because the Catholics were corrupt. Corrupt it was at the time but not for the reasons that Protestants like to claim it was corrupt. Protestants are taught to believe it was corrupt in the faith. That was NOT what it was corrupt in. The corruption came from the higharchy by selling indulgences,and pardons, making money off of poor people and scaring everyone into the stone age of fire and brimstone when in fact Christ’s church is about love. Therefore living a life of wealth while others were poor and suffering.
It was not a good time for the Church in those days.

Anyways not hear to debate it with you since you are no longer Protestant anyways.
I know the stance about ABC in the Protestant faith, and there is none. So therefore you cannot defend something that does not exist.
Its just all about what YOU believe in or not. Not what the church teaches.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Blueshadow123,

You say you are a Christian but your signature shows that you just do not get it.

The purpose of life is NOT a life of purpose. That is just pop psychology trying to be clever.

The purpose of life is to be transformed into the image of Christ. The purpose of life is union with God.

 

[benedictus2]

I submit that it is you who needs to study the history of the reasons for the Reformation.

I don’t know about Tracy but I have studied the reasons for the reformation.

Martin Luther was right in condemning the abuse. But that was about the only thing he got right. Everything else he got wrong. And the reason it became so wrong was because of his pride , you know the same sin that Adam and Eve succumbed to - I will decide. As I mentioned earlier, SOLA EGO.

As a matter of fact, Reformation is a misnomer. It was a DEFORMATION and one that continues to this day. The ever increasing number of denominations testify to that.