Protestants: defend your use of artificial contraception

  • Thread starter Thread starter ScapularDude
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I realize that Tamar wasn’t sedated. I only added that in so that Thoroughly Modern Millie, in my example, was in the same position as Tamar–totally clueless to what was going on and how she was being used.

I also disagree that Tamar + baby=Prostitute + money. There are many innocent ways to get money but only one way (at the time and throughout most of history) to conceive a child. A prostitute has chosen to sleep with random men in order to make money. It’s her way of life.

However, Tamar has not chosen that. She has agreed to bear an heir and that’s it. The only way to do that is to have sex. It’s undignified and a huge invasion of privacy to do it this way but it’s the only way. So Onan is not only refusing to do his duty as agreed upon, he is taking complete advantage of her with these multiple sexual encounters. Besides, if a guy doesn’t pay the prostitute the first time, she no longer has relations with him. Not the case with Tamar since Onan continuously took advantage of her unbeknownst to her.
And that is about the extent of Onan’s sin against Tamar. He took advantage of her. That hardly qualifies as sexual assault or rape.

As I said before, it would be like a man who, knowing that a girl was terribly in love with him took advantage of the fact and kept telling her he loved her too, just so he can bed her.

Was what he did good? No, very far from it. But was it sexual assault? Hardly.
 
Why are they inviting him to give commencement addresses at Catholic colleges, such as Holy Cross college in Massachusetts? Why doesn’t the local bishop do something about it?
I ask the same question. I think it is about time that these colleges are stripped of their “Catholic” label considering they are anything but.
 
woah! Holy Cross is a great Catholic College…just wanted to point that out. God Bless!
Okay, I don’t know much about Holy Cross so I am just going by what was posted. One wonders though why they invite obnoxious people as guest speakers.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong, but where I disagree with Holy Cross College is the following:
  1. Did they not host a conference by Planned Parenthood? And did not Planned Parenthood at the conference that they held at Holy Cross sponsor information about the use of artificial contraception. And, BTW, is not Planned PArenthood the biggest abortion provider in the USA?
  2. Did they not sponsor the filthy play the V_ monologues on Ash Wednesday? Is this any way to celebrate Ash Wednesday by hosting a filthy play according to which a teenage girl says she achieves salvation by engaging in lesbian relations with an older lesbian?
  3. Did they not invite Chris Matthews as commencement speaker. And did not Chris Matthews come out strongly in favor of artificial contraception and Planned Parenthood on his Hardball show a few days ago. And does not Chris Matthews oppose pro-life legislation?
    As I say, please correct me if these events, which were well reported in the news, and in particular in the local newspaper, the Worcester Telegram, are in any way incorrect.
    Thanks.
Wow, if that is all true, I wonder how anyone can claim it is a great college. Perhaps as a secular college and according to secular people it may be so, but Catholic…:rolleyes:
 
Wow, if that is all true, I wonder how anyone can claim it is a great college. Perhaps as a secular college and according to secular people it may be so, but Catholic…:rolleyes:
Yes, that’s what bothers me also.
Especially this idea of celebrating Ash Wednesday by having students participate in the filthy play the V_monologues?
And what is the idea of hosting a conference for Planned Parenthood?
These policies are troubling.
 
This rules out life destroying “contraception,” which I consider murder.
Not going to argue about anything else, but I definitely can’t agree with this sentence. Many people believe that life starts at conception, but no one believes it starts BEFORE conception. If it did, every man would be guilty of sin for NOT having sex every possible time he could. Literally millions of sperm die every day still in the testes, so you would have to have sex at every possible opportunity to make as many as possible have a chance of making a baby.

And, that’s just silly.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong, but where I disagree with Holy Cross College is the following:
  1. Did they not host a conference by Planned Parenthood? And did not Planned Parenthood at the conference that they held at Holy Cross sponsor information about the use of artificial contraception. And, BTW, is not Planned PArenthood the biggest abortion provider in the USA?
  2. Did they not sponsor the filthy play the V_ monologues on Ash Wednesday? Is this any way to celebrate Ash Wednesday by hosting a filthy play according to which a teenage girl says she achieves salvation by engaging in lesbian relations with an older lesbian?
  3. Did they not invite Chris Matthews as commencement speaker. And did not Chris Matthews come out strongly in favor of artificial contraception and Planned Parenthood on his Hardball show a few days ago. And does not Chris Matthews oppose pro-life legislation?
    As I say, please correct me if these events, which were well reported in the news, and in particular in the local newspaper, the Worcester Telegram, are in any way incorrect.
    Thanks.
well then…I suppose your correct 😊
 
Not going to argue about anything else, but I definitely can’t agree with this sentence. Many people believe that life starts at conception, but no one believes it starts BEFORE conception. If it did, every man would be guilty of sin for NOT having sex every possible time he could. Literally millions of sperm die every day still in the testes, so you would have to have sex at every possible opportunity to make as many as possible have a chance of making a baby.

And, that’s just silly.
But that is exactly what stevekehl is saying - that contraception that destroys life is murder. He is not talking about contraception that destroys sperm. He is not talking about contraception before life (such as perhaps condom).

I think what steve is talking about here are abortifacient pills or anything that stops the fertilized egg from implanting, or anything that stops it from continuing the life that has already begun.

So yes, I think stevekehl is in agreement with you that life starts at conception and what he considers murder is contraception that stops this conceived life from continuing.

So he wasn’t being silly. You just misunderstood him.
 
well then…I suppose your correct 😊
I am sorry about having to mention that, but those were some of the things which I found upsetting about Holy Cross today. There are a whole lot of good people and a whole lot of good things going on at Holy Cross college, of course, so these objections have to be kept in perspective.
Thanks a lot.
 
But that is exactly what stevekehl is saying - that contraception that destroys life is murder. He is not talking about contraception that destroys sperm. He is not talking about contraception before life (such as perhaps condom).

I think what steve is talking about here are abortifacient pills or anything that stops the fertilized egg from implanting, or anything that stops it from continuing the life that has already begun.

So yes, I think stevekehl is in agreement with you that life starts at conception and what he considers murder is contraception that stops this conceived life from continuing.

So he wasn’t being silly. You just misunderstood him.
What he said was definitely unclear and confusing then. The word “contraception” by definition means preventing a conception: CONTRA-ception. Not all contraception has the theoretical chance to impair implantation (as many drugs, including ones that aren’t used for contraception do).
 
I believe that the worst thing we can do to another person is to have them born into a bad situation. That is an unloving act. I am not sure I should have had the two children I did have considering the circumstances of their birth. I have never felt guilty in any way of using birth control, but I feel very guilty having brought children into the world to a bad family.

I had two daughters with a drunk and abusive husband. They both were C-sections. My pregnancies were fine, but delivery was impossible. I would have loved to have another child but the practical thing was to have my tubes tied. That way my daughters had at least one sober parent who would not die from complications of more pregnancies or deliveries of future siblings. For me to have another child would have been a selfish act for nothing but my own emotional needs.
 
I believe that the worst thing we can do to another person is to have them born into a bad situation. That is an unloving act.
This is probably one of the worst arguments for contraception.

If being in a “bad situation” is so bad, then it follows that those who are suffering hunger, depression, emotional distress, injustice all ought to be killed to end their suffering. For what difference is there between the “loving act” of stopping people from being born into a bad situation and another supposedly “loving act” of taking them out of their misery by murdering them.

By this kind of reasoning we therefore advocate not only for contraception but for abortion should it so happen that the immediate prospect of the new human being is hardship.

I can understand this line of reasoning being proposed by materialists and atheists who see no other value to the human person other than the material body.

But even a cursory survey of the great men and women of history prove that it is not necessarily those who are born into wealth and “good” life who make the most contribution to society.

This is a profoundly myopic view of humanity and what human beings are about.
I am not sure I should have had the two children I did have considering the circumstances of their birth. I have never felt guilty in any way of using birth control, but I feel very guilty having brought children into the world to a bad family.
You did not put down your religion so I am assuming you don’t have any. But bad family does not have the last word.

When I was in high school, there was this big news of an mentally disturbed mother who inflicted some horrible physical wounds on her 12 year old daughter that as a result the daughter was left blind in both eyes (due to her eyes being gouged) along with other major disabilities.

A decade later, this same child was on the news again. Blind and disabled she was a happy woman who had managed to finish a course in social work and has dedicated her life to helping the disabled.
I had two daughters with a drunk and abusive husband. They both were C-sections. My pregnancies were fine, but delivery was impossible. I would have loved to have another child but the practical thing was to have my tubes tied.
Practical is not one of God’s names. But if you are an atheist, that point will mean nothing.
That way my daughters had at least one sober parent who would not die from complications of more pregnancies or deliveries of future siblings. For me to have another child would have been a selfish act for nothing but my own emotional needs.
To all intents and purposes, it was my mother who raised all of us 10 children. My father, though not a bad man was certainly weak and did not seem to be overly concerned that his children went hungry while he helped others to show off.
If they had gone by your practical solution, realistically, there should only have been my eldest sister and even that would still have meant poverty.

But thanks to a devout mother, who never ceased to trust in the Lord, all ten of us are here. All having completed a college education and now contribute to society. Growing up poor, it helped us to empathize with the poor.

To this day, at 82, she still lives frugally so that she may be able to help others. My brother is the same, preferring to live very simply so that he is able to help those who need financial help.

The point of our lives is not the practical things. The point of our lives is the Lord God and the Lord God’s desire for us.

When we take our eyes off God, then the “practical” things take on gigantic proportions. But when we focus on God, then we get the correct and true perspective. These “practical” things are nothing compared to the awesome power and tender love of God.
 
If being in a “bad situation” is so bad, then it follows that those who are suffering hunger, depression, emotional distress, injustice all ought to be killed to end their suffering. For what difference is there between the “loving act” of stopping people from being born into a bad situation and another supposedly “loving act” of taking them out of their misery by murdering them.

By this kind of reasoning we therefore advocate not only for contraception but for abortion should it so happen that the immediate prospect of the new human being is hardship.

I can understand this line of reasoning being proposed by materialists and atheists who see no other value to the human person other than the material body.

But even a cursory survey of the great men and women of history prove that it is not necessarily those who are born into wealth and “good” life who make the most contribution to society.

Contraception is not morally equivalent to killing someone. It’s more understandable that someone would think it’s right to use contraception in this case. I can make two different arguments against that reason to use contraception:
  1. God gave you a way to do this already–don’t just have sex whenever you want to.
  2. There is a lack of trust that God will provide, Matthew 10:29-31
 
The excuses posted earlier are certainly weak arguments for abortion or contraception, if someone doesn’t want children born into a bad family they can change their family, abusive husbands need to be reported to police, or choose to abstain from sex. However, contraception used within the bounds of a Christian marriage isn’t a sin. If God intends for a child to be born, human interference is powerless, and I speak as a man whose wife became pregnant while taking the pill. Anyone who feels contraception is wrong must also argue that taking medication for high blood pressure is wrong, or diabetes, or cancer. If God’s will is for you to have a heart attack, should you accept it and lay down and die?
 
Contraception is not morally equivalent to killing someone. It’s more understandable that someone would think it’s right to use contraception in this case. I can make two different arguments against that reason to use contraception:
  1. God gave you a way to do this already–don’t just have sex whenever you want to.
  2. There is a lack of trust that God will provide, Matthew 10:29-31
You completely missed the point of my post.

kathmandu said that the reason why one should practice contraception is because she did not want children brought into a “bad situation”. If the “bad situation” is so evil one must never ever be born into it, then it stands to reason that it would be equally “loving” (as she puts) to get people out of existence just so they can get out of that situation.

Basically she is saying that not to be born is better than to be in this bad situation.

If this is true, then it is equally good to remove people from this bad situation even if it means killing them.

So dropping bombs in the starving regions of Africa becomes good because you are taking the people out of their misery.
 
If God intends for a child to be born, human interference is powerless, and I speak as a man whose wife became pregnant while taking the pill.
No doubt it happens. But the fact that it happens does not eliminate the fact that the reason you are practicing ABC is because you want to stop this from happening. Otherwise, if God’s will is paramount, and if you think God will give you the chidren that He wants to give you, then why are you bothering to contracept at all. Therefore by using contraception, you are saying that man does have a say in the matter.
Anyone who feels contraception is wrong must also argue that taking medication for high blood pressure is wrong, or diabetes, or cancer. If God’s will is for you to have a heart attack, should you accept it and lay down and die?
Do you realize what a stupid analogy you have just given?

You are equating a child to cancer, heart attack and diabetes.:eek:

Therefore to you, a child is a malady, a disease that must be stopped. Nice.

That is exactly what Obama thinks hence the reason for his statement about not wanting his daughter to be PUNISHED with a child. Children now are regarded as some form of chastisement.

Well then perhaps you should start looking at yourself in the same way. If a child, a human being, is a chastisement then you are a chastisement, you are a disease, you are a cancer.

Get my drift?
 
You completely missed the point of my post.

kathmandu said that the reason why one should practice contraception is because she did not want children brought into a “bad situation”. If the “bad situation” is so evil one must never ever be born into it, then it stands to reason that it would be equally “loving” (as she puts) to get people out of existence just so they can get out of that situation.

Basically she is saying that not to be born is better than to be in this bad situation.

If this is true, then it is equally good to remove people from this bad situation even if it means killing them.

So dropping bombs in the starving regions of Africa becomes good because you are taking the people out of their misery.
I understood what you are trying to say, but I disagree that the logic necessarily leads to being ok with killing people who already exist. There are plenty of people who are ok with contraception but wouldn’t have an abortion, wouldn’t kill a bum on the street, and wouldn’t bomb anyone in starving areas of the world.

On another note…

I was thinking about how the Church allows certain things as long as the intent isn’t evil. For example, it’s ok to vote for a pro-choice candidate as long as that is not the reason why you’re voting for them. Or another example is how removing some of the fallopian tube for an ectopic pregnancy is ok because you’re not aborting the baby even though the result is the same.

I knew someone who was on birth control pills for medical reasons. It was a long time ago and I don’t remember the details. Likewise, what if you use a condom to prevent contracting a disease? In the right circumstances do those become ok as long as your intent isn’t to prevent a pregnancy?
 
You are equating a child to cancer, heart attack and diabetes.:eek:

Therefore to you, a child is a malady, a disease that must be stopped. Nice.

That is exactly what Obama thinks hence the reason for his statement about not wanting his daughter to be PUNISHED with a child. Children now are regarded as some form of chastisement.
Actually, I think that’s exactly how an unwanted pregnancy is treated–as a disease. And it’s the heart of the problem. If you want the baby, it’s a baby. If you don’t, it’s just a choice. Those of us who don’t agree can’t see how the definition could be subjective.
 
I understood what you are trying to say, but I disagree that the logic necessarily leads to being ok with killing people who already exist. There are plenty of people who are ok with contraception but wouldn’t have an abortion, wouldn’t kill a bum on the street, and wouldn’t bomb anyone in starving areas of the world.
But the question is: Is the reason being proposed in support of contraception logically consistent with the “yes to contraception, no to abortion” mindset?

If life is so bad it is far better not to be born, then it follows that life is so bad it is better to be dead. If so, then it is better to be dead by whatever means it takes to be dead because it is better to be dead. “Living in a bad situation” is seen as an evil soooo undesirable that non-existence is regarded as the utmost good in this situation.

What I am trying to show is that, such an excuse is really a poor excuse because it is saying that a certain situation is so bad that it trumps the choice for life.

My main point was that the reason for contraception being proferred by Kathmandu is rather bankrupt.
On another note…
I was thinking about how the Church allows certain things as long as the intent isn’t evil. For example, it’s ok to vote for a pro-choice candidate as long as that is not the reason why you’re voting for them. Or another example is how removing some of the fallopian tube for an ectopic pregnancy is ok because you’re not aborting the baby even though the result is the same.
Yes, that is correct. For example, a mother who needs to take a life saving medication that may have a detrimental effect on the baby. The point of the medication is not to kill the baby but to save the mother.
I knew someone who was on birth control pills for medical reasons. It was a long time ago and I don’t remember the details. Likewise, what if you use a condom to prevent contracting a disease?
Okay, on this last one, it must be stressed that it applies only to married couples. If the partner has STD then using a condom to prevent transmission is permissible. However, in the case of STD where it is treatable, then I think the more advisable move is abstinence until this has been treated as one wonders how the husband/wife got the STD in the first place. If it was through transfusion of contaminated blood, then that is a different matter altogether. But if through a morally bad behaviour, then abstinence would do the person some good.
In the right circumstances do those become ok as long as your intent isn’t to prevent a pregnancy?
Yes, I think they do and if I am not mistaken that is what the Church teaches.
 
Therefore by using contraception, you are saying that man does have a say in the matter.

Do you realize what a stupid analogy you have just given?

You are equating a child to cancer, heart attack and diabetes.:eek:

First, a couple who abstains from sex when the woman is ovulating is practicing birth control, which is another way man attempts to intervene in God’s plan. Second, it is an appropriate analogy. ABC that alters body chemistry works the same way as medications for conditions I listed. ABCs that alter body chemistry to change fertility are the same as medications that alter body chemistry that stimulate the pancreas, or the pituitary gland, or the adrenals, you get the picture.
As to equating chilldren to these medical conditions let me say that pregnancy is a medical condition. Pregnancy necessitates improving lifestyle choices, eating better, exercise, doctor visits, ultrasounds, physical examinations, hormonal and physical changes in a woman’s body, and possibly medication to correct complications. In addition, who says that the aformentioned diseases are a chastisement. It is times of trouble that draw us closer to God as we lean on Him for support. These conditions, along with pregnancy, often lead people to deeply examine their lives and make changes for the better. In this way even a cancer like me can do God’s work.* We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God-those whom he has called according to his plan.* Rom 8:28
If we don’t meet in this life I’ll see you in heaven, brother.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top