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guanophore
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I haven’t read the Pope’s posts! Perhaps, if I read them every day for two years, like I have yours, then I would be more acquainted with his mindset.
I am sure it would be a very profitable spiritual exercise.
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I am sure it would be a very profitable spiritual exercise.
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valiermn
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wisdomseeker
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If He called some to reform the Church, how did you guys end up outside the Church and with so many sets of different beliefs? did He also called some to adulterate His Words too? take books of the Bible and add different words to the Book to fit your beliefs? how about the behavior of those so called reformers at the time? do you ignore all that together just because in your mind you must be right no matter what?
to not show so much ignorance here, i suggest you study your history first. it isnt much only humnnn…about 450 years back.
:knight2: :knight2:
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guanophore
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And his works sure do speak to the kind of man he was…
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justasking4
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They should make him a Saint…
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guanophore
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If you think that the deeds of Luther make him a saint,then it is no wonder that, following such “saints” you have become such an enemy of the Catholic Church.They should make him a Saint…
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justasking4
Guest
The way God used this man to bring the gospel to the people should be made a SAINT.
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guanophore
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No, ja4. Judas also was involved in God’s plan, as was Pontius Pilate. It does not make them saints.The way God used this man to bring the gospel to the people should be made a SAINT.
Saints are,by definition, the embodiment of God’s character. They are examples of faith, hope, and love. I think if you read any of Luther’s writings, you will find that he does not consistenly reflect these.
Try this little gem from Against the Peasants:
“Therefore, whosoever can, should smite, strangle, and stab, secretly or publicly, and should remember that there is nothing more poisonous, pernicious, and devilish than a rebellious man. Just as one must slay a mad dog, so, if you do not fight the rebels, they will fight you, and the whole country with you.”
Isn’t this just an overbrimming example of godly love?
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justasking4
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Do you know the context of this? Are you familar with some of the Psalms of David where he also wishes the death of the children of his enemies? Or take Paul who persecuted the church?
We could also get into the inqusitions or some of the pronouncements of some councils if you want to…
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guanophore
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Luther is addressing the uprising of the peasants. It has nothing to do with anything about God. It is a political polemic couched in religious language. His vehement railings preciptated the deaths of thousands of Peasants.Do you know the context of this? Are you familar with some of the Psalms of David where he also wishes the death of the children of his enemies? Or take Paul who persecuted the church?
We could also get into the inqusitions or some of the pronouncements of some councils if you want to…
Luthers writings against the Jews were the seeds of the Nazi holocaust:
I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God’s word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.
He did not call them Abraham’s children, but a “brood of vipers” [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon’ [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a “brood of vipers”; furthermore in John 8 :39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham’s children ye would do what Abraham did… You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham’s but the devil’s children, nor can they bear to hear this today.
Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools…
Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people.
…their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain.
Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, “When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit” [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments…
Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self*glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them."
Yes, we could get into vile persons calling themselves Catholics that sin against God and their fellow man as did Luther. But I am not promoting that any such wrongdoers be proclaimed as saints, as you are of Luther.
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AshleyBelle
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Wow...Thank you for posting this! I have read "about" luther..and various quotes that I assumed were taken out of context.. But these are the first opportunities I've had to actually read his ideas word for word.Mother Mary, pray for us!
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justasking4
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I would not defend this. What do you think of these canons from the the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215 where in many places the Jews are put down by the church? For example in canon 69 its says:
"69. Jews not to hold public offices
It would be too absurd for a blasphemer of Christ to exercise power over Christians. We therefore renew in this canon, on account of the boldness of the offenders, what the council of Toledo providently decreed in this matter : we forbid Jews to be appointed to public offices, since under cover of them they are very hostile to Christians. If, however, anyone does commit such an office to them let him, after an admonition, be curbed by the provincial council, which we order to be held annually, by means of an appropriate sanction. Any official so appointed shall be denied commerce with Christians in business and in other matters until he has converted to the use of poor Christians, in accordance with the directions of the diocesan bishop, whatever he has obtained from Christians by reason of his office so acquired, and he shall surrender with shame the office which he irreverently assumed. We extend the same thing to pagans."
What do you think of this council doing this? Was this council led by the HS?
You can find this at this link: piar.hu/councils/ecum12.htm#Jews%20and%20excessive%20Usury
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guanophore
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I think it was a decision influenced by the politics of the time. A later decision was made that Catholic Clergy are not to be appointed to public office, to prevent the abuses that occurred during the middle ages. This decree is also in effect. However, the issue was that a Saint is one who embodies the holiness of God, which Luther does not appear to do. It was not my idea to propose that men who do evil be considered saints. That was your idea.
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justasking4
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i can understand Luther since he is supposedly outside the church doing this kind of thing. Catholics would expect such a thing from a heritic. I don’t agree with this but i suspect a lot of catholics do.I think it was a decision influenced by the politics of the time. A later decision was made that Catholic Clergy are not to be appointed to public office, to prevent the abuses that occurred during the middle ages. This decree is also in effect. However, the issue was that a Saint is one who embodies the holiness of God, which Luther does not appear to do. It was not my idea to propose that men who do evil be considered saints. That was your idea.
However, how could a council of the Catholic that is supposedly led by the HS and incapable of error in matters of faith and morals declare such a thing against the Jews? It won’t do to claim it was the politics of the time either. The church is to be above politics.
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guanophore
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No, ja4, disagreement with the teaching of the Church does not have to equal vicious malice. there are many people who have embraced views contrary to Apostolic Teaching who are quite devout and sincere in their faith, and endeavor to manifest the love of Christ in their lives.
No, I doubt there are any Catholics that agree with most of what you have to say.
If there are, I have not seen them here!
At the time it was declared, the Church was thick in the politics. How could the same church forbid clergy to be in politics? It is the duty of the Magesterium to guide the Church in faith and morals. Sometimes this impacts politics.
I am not the one claiming that men who do evil should be called saints.
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SIA
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Your Bible is probably as dusty as your Rosary.
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justasking4
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You realize that when you read the Scriptures you must interpret what you read. There is no getting around this. Secondly, how do you know you are correctly interpreting what the church teaches since you are no infallible?
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cazayoux
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Don’t you realize that Luther didn’t reform the church, he *left *it.
How do you reform something if you separate yourself from it?
He started a new religion, he didn’t reform one.
michel
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wisdomseeker
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